God is a sexist, homophobic, proslavery, sadistic, murderer

Fair enough...it is true that there is a very human element in the Bible, and that there are cultural/historical biases. People (christians) who study the Bible critically could lay this all out for you themselves in great (and mindnumbing) detail. Nor is the Bible something one should base the entirety of their lives on...it is a pointer to something else and this must always be remembered. The stories are an unfolding of a revelation...something we could not discover on our own unless it was shown to us. The result of this revelation is the objective, not the book itself.

I say this because, frankly, we have been tragically let down. The vast treasurehouse of religion has been dumbed-down, effaced and covered-over to the degree that what most of us percieve as "religious" is merely a cartoon version that is silly and irrelevant....and even scary. I see it myself and I am a christian!!!!! Worse still is that we are offered little else. So where does the whole spiral of misinformation wind up going?? Right....straight down.

There is, though...out there...another way of seeing all this, and I mention it only to call attention to a big whoppin' historical anomaly we are living right smack-dab in the middle of concerning the misrepresentation of religion. Also that religion...in it's core and essence...is both very good and very healthy....and nothing at all like what we frequently take away from the cartoon version. We have been left with a second grade education (if that) about these things...no wonder we are puzzled.

I wish circumstances were otherwise, but they are not. Finding religion and faith today (in its truest sense) is not an easy task and there is lots to sift through, but it is out there. You are very right, it is not about fairy-godmothers, or fire and brimstone, or even being happy all the time. It is very gritty, real-life stuff. It does require a degree of trust, I will say that....and each individual has to make that leap for themselves. Frankly, not everyone is prepared to do so.

I'm sure to some degree I may seem to be talking in riddles, but this is a big topic and I have spent most of my life on it. Over the years, I find that nothing in this realm is what I thought it was in the beginning.
 
I would say that when it comes to speaking with people who understand religion on an intuitive level, it is like watching a linguistic ballet. Lot's of nice and pleasant fluff, but the fundamental point is always the same. Religion is up to interpretation. People like to spin circles around this, but that is ultimately what it comes down to.
 
Satya said:
it is like watching a linguistic ballet.
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I have found that words are seldom up to the task...the subject has many, many subtle nuances. It is difficult to have religious ideas handed out on a platter....it just does not work. People do try though. Theology has a whole lexicon of specialized terms, just as any field...can make for some tough reading. And even that is generally one facet of a larger picture. I can appreciate anyone's frustration trying to make sense of some of it, but considering the implications of the subject, it really shouldn't be a total shocker.

Satya, it seems to be we may have very different types of groups we typically interface with....I know there are some religious discussions I've been in now and again that have left me w/ a headache.
 
gokartride said:
I have found that words are seldom up to the task...the subject has many, many subtle nuances. It is difficult to have religious ideas handed out on a platter....it just does not work. People do try though. Theology has a whole lexicon of specialized terms, just as any field...can make for some tough reading. And even that is generally one facet of a larger picture. I can appreciate anyone's frustration trying to make sense of some of it, but considering the implications of the subject, it really shouldn't be a total shocker.

Satya, it seems to be we may have very different types of groups we typically interface with....I know there are some religious discussions I've been in now and again that have left me w/ a headache.
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I understand where you are coming from very well since as an INFJ I share Ni with you and understand that inner perception that defies words and that ability to know things without clear evidence as to why they are knowable. But unlike INFJs who allow themselves to be dazzled by their intuitive prowess or even the less spiritually inclined who just go by what "feels right", I try to be critical and demanding of my understanding. My mistake is I expect this from others, when sadly they only have interest in the aesthetics of their understanding. That is what is apparent in the "linguistic ballet". Nothing is actually said about why people feel or believe the way they do, people are simply spellbound by the fact that they do feel or believe the way they do. They flutter around excuses of, "oh its too complicated," "there is just too much too it," and even you own, "it has many, many subtle nuances."

Here is the reality. People believe and feel the way they do because that is how they were socialized. That is how they were raised to believe and feel from birth by their parents and by the experiences they have had with other people and their environment. It is that simple. People do not grasp innate intuitive truths from the universe. The Bible has absolutely nothing to teach us that we can't learn by ourselves. It is not some great piece of truth, but merely another piece of linguistic ballet that is so vague and relative to its own time that it is amazing anyone takes it seriously anymore. That is why it only inspires more linguistic ballet when people critically challenge it.

You want to know what the true message of the Bible is? Humans feel alone. They are the only self conscious and aware animal that they have encountered in this world, and so they need to create something bigger and better than themselves so that loneliness doesn't consume them. If they don't believe that there is something else out there that cares about their meager existence then all they would have is each other. Can you imagine how horrible that would be for so many people? If humans were only accountable to other humans with no higher moral principles to live by? How could they possibly justify their existence? Pathetic! Disgusting! Weak! That is what the Bible represents about human nature. We need to be fooled to abate our fears and insecurities about things that are completely outside our control. So interpret the Bible as it actually is...a bed time story for all of humanity so we are comforted and won't fear being consumed by the darkness when we close our eyes for the last time.
 
Satya said:
excuses of, "oh its too complicated," "there is just too much too it," and even you own, "it has many, many subtle nuances."
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Well, that's only because it is true! I'm not sure what you expect...if anyone is looking for accuracy they'd best be prepared for some serious study. It is out there, but even then you'll never, ever reach the end. The spiritual life is every bit as complex and rich as the natural world...perhaps more so. Add to this the fact that, in the end, the spiritual journey is a highly individual and personal experience...there are many, many paths we all take. I cannot change this. Nor can I summarize thousands of years of experience and reflection, although I wish I could sometimes. The real burr in the whole thing, I suppose, is that folks also generally have to make a leap to begin, to learn....and not everybody does this the same way or (given free will) even wants to. It is not my intention here to convince anybody, only to illustrate that there is another side to the coin. Folks can do with that as they please.

Satya said:
Here is the reality. People believe and feel the way they do because that is how they were socialized.
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Many of us embarked on the path of belief in contradiction to how we were socialized. Given the historical record, I'd say this is a pretty common experience.

Satya said:
You want to know what the true message of the Bible is? Humans feel alone.
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This is a big part of it, yes....but if anything the Bible record reveals that we are not alone. This connection (and restoration of the same) is what christian spirituality is all about....but this is also part of many other spiritual traditions. The other issue is that many people over the ages have taken this message to heart and actually experienced awakening, enlightenment, conversion, renewal, rebirth (whatever terms a tradition may use) and it has radically altered the trajectory of their life. This becomes far more then a abstract philosophical construct...it is very real.
 
gokartride said:
Well, that's only because it is true! I'm not sure what you expect...if anyone is looking for accuracy they'd best be prepared for some serious study. It is out there, but even then you'll never, ever reach the end. The spiritual life is every bit as complex and rich as the natural world...perhaps more so. Add to this the fact that, in the end, the spiritual journey is a highly individual and personal experience...there are many, many paths we all take. I cannot change this. Nor can I summarize thousands of years of experience and reflection, although I wish I could sometimes. The real burr in the whole thing, I suppose, is that folks also generally have to make a leap to begin, to learn....and not everybody does this the same way or (given free will) even wants to. It is not my intention here to convince anybody, only to illustrate that there is another side to the coin. Folks can do with that as they please.
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Alright, enough of the linguistic ballet, I'm going to critically examine your own words.

"I'm not sure what you expect...if anyone is looking for accuracy they'd best be prepared for some serious study. It is out there, but even then you'll never, ever reach the end."

What accuracy? How do you know it is unachievable? Why is it even important?

"The spiritual life is every bit as complex and rich as the natural world...perhaps more so."

How do you know there is a spiritual life? How do you know it is as complex as the natural world? Simply because you read it in a book, or is it based on what you imagine and "feel"?

"The real burr in the whole thing, I suppose, is that folks also generally have to make a leap to begin, to learn....and not everybody does this the same way or (given free will) even wants to."

What leaps are talking about? Why do you think people "generally" have to take them?

"It is not my intention here to convince anybody, only to illustrate that there is another side to the coin."

What coin? What is the "normal" side of the coin? What is the other side of the coin?


Do you see how your words are completely vague and meaningless. You don't provide examples or specify at all what you are talking about. It's clear that what you are saying has some intuition or imagery that is relevant and important to you, but nothing you say has any context to reality. I would say that you are speaking completely based on feelings and intuitions without even attempting to relate them to reality. This makes me believe that you are actually attempting to use your intuitive insight to speak my over my head, because you realize how you can't even begin to base what you "feel" in reality. It's much easier for you to keep your head in the clouds and pretend those feelings have implications to the real world, rather than actually understand if they do. You may even use your own experiences to justify your beliefs. However, that doesn't change how this is all simply fluff.

Many of us embarked on the path of belief in contradiction to how we were socialized. Given the historical record, I'd say this is a pretty common experience.
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Could you give me a few examples please? It's also bad practice to simply state things without providing some sort of evidence to support them.

This is a big part of it, yes....but if anything the Bible record reveals that we are not alone. This connection (and restoration of the same) is what christian spirituality is all about....but this is also part of many other spiritual traditions. The other issue is that many people over the ages have taken this message to heart and actually experienced awakening, enlightenment, conversion, renewal, rebirth (whatever terms a tradition may use) and it has radically altered the trajectory of their life. This becomes far more then a abstract philosophical construct...it is very real.
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The Bible is full of fairy tells. Do you honestly believe in talking serpents and whales that swallow men whole and spit them out alive? I always find it funny that people use conveniently unobservable words like "awakened", "enlightened", "conversed", "renewed", "reborn" and whatnot to describe the benefits of religious texts. Guess what! People get the same damn benefits from therapy and simply talking out their problems. The Bible is simply another tool with which people use to heal themselves. Just as other people put faith in a therapist, they put faith in a God and ultimately work out their own problems. The Bible is just one big "Self Help" book written by the Dr, Phils of the day.
 
Very good questions, but do you realize what you are asking for?? Volumes can be/have been written on all this. Fact is, I simply do not have the raw time to delve into it all here in an on-line forum...I wish I did.

To me it is like...using words...trying to describe all the details of a beautiful sunset. One could use a thousand words...and possibly arrange them in a thousand ways, but it would still not compare to the reality. One can only look for themselves.

That may sound silly...if it does I doubt any expanation of mine will help.
 
gokartride said:
Very good questions, but do you realize what you are asking for?? Volumes can be/have been written on all this. Fact is, I simply do not have the raw time to delve into it all here in an on-line forum...I wish I did.

To me it is like...using words...trying to describe all the details of a beautiful sunset. One could use a thousand words...and possibly arrange them in a thousand ways, but it would still not compare to the reality. One can only look for themselves.

That may sound silly...if it does I doubt any expanation of mine will help.
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Not silly, just mindless intuitive rabble. :roll: Using the most words to argue the simplest point. In short you feel superior for intuitive insight that you have neither the time nor the desire to critically examine.
 
Satya said:
you feel superior for intuitive insight that you have neither the time nor the desire to critically examine.
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Gee...that would sorta explain what I have been doing for the past 35 years!!! Dialogue is fun...debate is boring.
 
gokartride said:
Satya said:
you feel superior for intuitive insight that you have neither the time nor the desire to critically examine.
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Gee...that would sorta explain what I have been doing for the past 35 years!!! Dialogue is fun...debate is boring.
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:D If you do it right, then debate is the best kind of dialogue there is.
 
gokartride said:
Satya said:
:D If you do it right, then debate is the best kind of dialogue there is.
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For some perhaps. ;)
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Yes, for those who are not afraid to be critically challenged about the reasons behind why they feel and believe the way they do. :mrgreen:
 
Satya said:
Yes, for those who are not afraid to be critically challenged about the reasons behind why they feel and believe the way they do. :mrgreen:
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Sometimes this can be productive, sometimes (more often) not. I don't expect we'll make much headway here, though.
 
Suppose those who wrote the bible really did have direct communication with god; then are those words exactly from god or interpretations?

Are people to be denied of their own experiences and views of god because someone deems themselve having more communication or preordained?

I believe in god and I cannot fully explain why. I do know everyone has a right to what they believe and hold true religious or not; that certainly goes both ways.
 
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I believe that the bible was inspired by God, but unfortunately he used humans to write it. Man has a tendency to twist things, even the word of God for their own gains. The bible does have some moral values and good teachings in it (esp New Testament) I dont think God is the angry jealous diety that the Old Testament makes him out to be.
 
Satya said:
The Bible is just one big "Self Help" book written by the Dr, Phils of the day.
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That's an extremely gross oversimplification.


What gokartride is trying to say is that unless you have a good foundational understanding of theology, it would not be possible to understand an extremely in-depth discussion of it. The same thing goes for most any topic, like politics, evolution, and physics, for instance. He is not being all high and mighty or anything like that at all.
 
Eric86 said:
That's an extremely gross oversimplification.
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Please enlighten me. In what ways is an oversimplification?

What gokartride is trying to say is that unless you have a good foundational understanding of theology, it would not be possible to understand an extremely in-depth discussion of it. The same thing goes for most any topic, like politics, evolution, and physics, for instance. He is not being all high and mighty or anything like that at all.
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No, it is a logical fallacy called appeal to authority.

1. gokatride claims to be an authority on the Bible.
2. gokatride claims the Bible is true.
3. Therefore the Bible is true.

Considering gokatride has not made a single verifiable claim about the Bible, I am more than inclined to believe that gokatride is not an expert on the Bible and therefore her claims are no more or less reliable than mine. Now had gokatride provided any adequate evidence to support her position, it would be another story. However, as a critically thinking individual, I do not have to accept her erranous conclusoin based solely on her claims of authority and intutive drivel.

Sigh...I've hung around too many INTJs. :mcute:

And FYI, I have a pretty decent foundation in understanding theology.
 
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Satya

I love you!, your words are music to my ears, I want to have your children - and I'm a guy :)

An intellectually sound INFJ is a rare thing indeed.

I can however allow myself to disagree with you on one point - that gorkatride's need is immanent, It could well be he needs to learn and feel other things, before he can refine his thinking.

- While it is true issues can stop us developing and taint our judgement, it is also true that not all issues need or indeed should be solved within their own logic.
 
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