high fashion models are too thin

thirtiesgirl said:
And how does blaming them for making their own choice about their own bodies help them? Explain that one to me.
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how 'bout we realize pointing fingers isn't going to do shit, and just help people?
 
thirtiesgirl said:
And how does blaming them for making their own choice about their own bodies help them? Explain that one to me.
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It doesn't really, but it makes people aware. Sometimes the truth hurts and that is just how it is.
 
thirtiesgirl said:
With a very young man's sense of what women "should" look like and that they should be blamed for the choices they make with their own bodies.
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Care to say that sentence again, and make sense this time?


thirtiesgirl said:
Consider that it can become very difficult to take responsibility for your body if you're faced with constant blame for what you choose to do with it.
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ZOMG PEER PRESSURE!
I SHOULD SMOKE!

thirtiesgirl said:
But what good does it do for us to blame them for what they choose to do with their bodies?
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It does them no good to deny them their responsibility of their actions.

thirtiesgirl said:
What good does it do for them to hear other people constantly judging them and asserting their own assumptions over their bodies?
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None, but they should ignore it, like others ignore insults.

thirtiesgirl said:
What good does it do for younger women to constantly hear conflicting messages about their own bodies with all the body snark we give to women on a constant basis?
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I don't give women snark, perhaps the media might, but they should ignore the media.
Or do you suggest they're too retarded to do that?
 
Peppermint said:
You keep making this assertion without providing any proof (to my knowledge) other than you don't know what it feels like.

Anything more concrete than that?
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I found these statistics online. You can, too.

  • An estimated 10 per cent of female college students suffer from a clinical or sub-clinical (borderline) eating disorder, of which over half suffer from bulimia nervosa.
  • An estimated 1 in 100 American women binges and purges to lose weight.
  • Approximately 5 per cent of women and 1 percent of men have anorexia nervosa, bulimia nervosa, or binge eating disorder.
  • 15 per cent of young women have significantly disordered eating attitudes and behavior.
  • It is estimated that 200,000 to 300,000 Canadian women aged 13 to 40 have anorexia nervosa and twice as many have bulimia.
  • Studies suggest that 5 to 10 percent of people with anorexia or bulimia are males.
  • An estimated 1 in 3 of all dieters develop compulsive dieting attitudes and behaviors.
    Of these, one quarter will develop full or partial eating disorders.
  • In the UK, nearly 2 in every 100 secondary school girls suffer from anorexia nervosa,
    bulimia nervosa or binge eating disorder.
  • Due to the incidence of co-occurring medical conditions, it is almost impossible to specify the morbidity rates for eating disorders like anorexia, bulimia or binge eating. However, general estimates suggest that as many as 10-15 per cent of eating disorders are fatal for those affected.
  • Each day Americans spend an average of $109 million on dieting and diet related products.

Many eating disorders go unreported
Because of the guilt and consequent secretiveness of eating disorders (esp. bulimia and binge-eating) it is likely that many instances go unreported. Thus a higher incidence of eating disorders is almost certain.
Increased social pressure to be thin
According to studies into diet, weight loss and body shape, many individuals feel dissatisfied with their body shape, and develop sub-clinical / borderline eating disorder attitudes and behaviors. For example, 80 per cent of American women claim to be dissatisfied with their appearance and shape, and 1 in 2 American women are on a weight loss diet. The prevailing standards of body weight and shape, as revealed in the use of abnormally thin models in the media, continue to emphasize the idea that "thin is beautiful" and (one suspects) only make things worse for adolescents and adults with borderline anorexia, bulimia or binge eating disorders.
Attitudes to weight, shape and diet in pre-teens and teens
For example, 40 per cent of 1st, 2nd or 3rd grade girls want to be thinner. And 80 per cent of 10 year olds are worried in case they become fat. In another survey, 70 percent of 6th grade girls surveyed said that their concern about their weight, shape and diet started when they were aged 9-11.
In addition:

  • In a study of children aged 8-10, approximately 50 per cent of girls said they were unhappy with their size.
  • In a study of girls aged 9-15, more than 50 per cent claimed they exercised to lose weight, nearly 50 per cent claimed they reduced food intake in order to lose weight, and approximately 5 per cent claimed to use their parents' diet pills or laxatives in order to lose weight.

Do you need more proof than that?
 
That "proof of existence of eating disorders" doesn't shift blame from the sufferer to the fashion industry.
 
 
thirtiesgirl said:
I concur. But the only person in my life who is allowed to comment thusly on my body and how I take care of it is my doctor. NOT anyone else in my life. My body is not their property to comment on.
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I would agree with this. That's why I also said that we can't go by what others said, in my previous statement. The problem is when we can't cognitively process what's being said to us because we're too messed up in the head. Addicts behave this way, and they're often too far gone to listen to their doctors.

Sometimes it takes a village of wise folks to get us to listen to those things.
 
too thin or too willing to conform to an industrial standard? :P they didn't create the standard, merely complied with it.
 
Men have just as much pressure put on them by society as women do. Don't make this a sexist feminist thread.
 
thirtiesgirl said:
I found these statistics online. You can, too.

  • An estimated 10 per cent of female college students suffer from a clinical or sub-clinical (borderline) eating disorder, of which over half suffer from bulimia nervosa.
  • An estimated 1 in 100 American women binges and purges to lose weight.
  • Approximately 5 per cent of women and 1 percent of men have anorexia nervosa, bulimia nervosa, or binge eating disorder.
  • 15 per cent of young women have significantly disordered eating attitudes and behavior.
  • It is estimated that 200,000 to 300,000 Canadian women aged 13 to 40 have anorexia nervosa and twice as many have bulimia.
  • Studies suggest that 5 to 10 percent of people with anorexia or bulimia are males.
  • An estimated 1 in 3 of all dieters develop compulsive dieting attitudes and behaviors.
    Of these, one quarter will develop full or partial eating disorders.
  • In the UK, nearly 2 in every 100 secondary school girls suffer from anorexia nervosa,
    bulimia nervosa or binge eating disorder.
  • Due to the incidence of co-occurring medical conditions, it is almost impossible to specify the morbidity rates for eating disorders like anorexia, bulimia or binge eating. However, general estimates suggest that as many as 10-15 per cent of eating disorders are fatal for those affected.
  • Each day Americans spend an average of $109 million on dieting and diet related products.

Many eating disorders go unreported
Because of the guilt and consequent secretiveness of eating disorders (esp. bulimia and binge-eating) it is likely that many instances go unreported. Thus a higher incidence of eating disorders is almost certain.
Increased social pressure to be thin
According to studies into diet, weight loss and body shape, many individuals feel dissatisfied with their body shape, and develop sub-clinical / borderline eating disorder attitudes and behaviors. For example, 80 per cent of American women claim to be dissatisfied with their appearance and shape, and 1 in 2 American women are on a weight loss diet. The prevailing standards of body weight and shape, as revealed in the use of abnormally thin models in the media, continue to emphasize the idea that "thin is beautiful" and (one suspects) only make things worse for adolescents and adults with borderline anorexia, bulimia or binge eating disorders.
Attitudes to weight, shape and diet in pre-teens and teens
For example, 40 per cent of 1st, 2nd or 3rd grade girls want to be thinner. And 80 per cent of 10 year olds are worried in case they become fat. In another survey, 70 percent of 6th grade girls surveyed said that their concern about their weight, shape and diet started when they were aged 9-11.
In addition:

  • In a study of children aged 8-10, approximately 50 per cent of girls said they were unhappy with their size.
  • In a study of girls aged 9-15, more than 50 per cent claimed they exercised to lose weight, nearly 50 per cent claimed they reduced food intake in order to lose weight, and approximately 5 per cent claimed to use their parents' diet pills or laxatives in order to lose weight.

Do you need more proof than that?
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Oh, also: http://www.boyanorexia.com/
 
thirtiesgirl said:
I found these statistics online. You can, too.

Do you need more proof than that?
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I am specifically interested in the difference between expectations placed on men and women.

These statistics only show the frequency of eating disorders in women, not the cause. One paragraph briefly mentions that:

The prevailing standards of body weight and shape, as revealed in the use of abnormally thin models in the media, continue to emphasize the idea that "thin is beautiful" and (one suspects) only make things worse for adolescents and adults with borderline anorexia, bulimia or binge eating disorders.
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This is speculation, not proof.
 
Peppermint said:
I am specifically interested in the difference between expectations placed on men and women.

This is speculation, not proof.
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The eating disorders begin because of the expectations put on women and young girls. I know you've got the critical thinking skills to understand that.
 
[mods]Now, now, children - let's leave the name calling at the door, so we can continue having good dialectics. No resorting to hair-pulling or spitting, thanks. :)[/mods]
 
thirtiesgirl said:
The eating disorders begin because of the expectations put on women and young girls. I know you've got the critical thinking skills to understand that.
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Sure, it could be a possibility or a contributing factor. That still doesn't make it the sole cause by default, unless of course there's evidence to support that.

I'm still more interested in the disparity between gender and expectations though.
 
thirtiesgirl said:
The eating disorders begin because of the expectations put on women and young girls. I know you've got the critical thinking skills to understand that.
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Just as I know you've got the critical thinking skills to understand that peer pressure is easy to avoid with willpower.
 
slant said:
Men have just as much pressure put on them by society as women do. Don't make this a sexist feminist thread.
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I have to disagree with you. When you're discussing women's bodies and blaming women for the choices they make about their own bodies, it becomes a feminist issue.

I work as a school counselor, which I've done for many years. I've seen first hand what the pressures of society and the popular media can do to girls and young women. I experienced them myself growing up. I also know my younger brother didn't experience any of it. He faced no double standards about his sexual choices, while I did. He faced no double standards about his looks and appearance, while I did. He faced no double standards about speaking his mind, while I constantly did. Even now, I'm sure there are people on this forum who see me as a "bitch" for choosing to speak my mind, while they wouldn't think anything of the kind about a guy who chooses to do the same.

Why is it that there are so many more commercials for women than there are for men? Why are women always the ones featured in laundry and household supply commercials? Why are there so many more commercials for womens' hygiene products than there are for men? Hair removal, sunless tanning, diet industry, etc.? And consider the number of women who fall within the typical media-standard definition of "hot" and are featured in ads for men. The beer ads, car ads, ads for men's hygiene products. If you want to sell something to a heterosexual man, apparently you need to include a woman with a socially acceptable body type.

Until you've taken the time to examine and think about these issues, I understand that they can be easy to miss. But I've been on this planet for a few more years than you have and I've done my homework. I speak from experience. Absorb some history and perhaps it will begin to make sense to you, too.
 
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thirtiesgirl said:
If you haven't grown up as a woman in western society, it's very unlikely that you'll understand the pressures women have to contend with that are very different and much more constant than the pressures men have to contend with. I certainly agree that men have pressures and I don't dismiss them. Women have simply many more to contend with and on nearly a constant basis. Men...not so much.
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Given that you did not grow up as both a woman and a man in western society, you have no valid basis, much less experience, on which to make such a comparison and contrast, or claim.

My sense is the pressures you have to contend with are many and great. I affirm you in that.

That said, what is good for the goose is also good for the gander. The surety of your statement communicates otherwise, and I don't value that kind of expression as it concerns the sexes.

Also, as a member of that group of humanity called "men," I felt hurt in reading that my struggle, by contrast, is less.

I can't know your experience, and so I do not judge it. I would appreciate, and so ask of you, to treat me the same, and engage with me as different, but equal.


cheers,
Ian
 
thirtiesgirl said:
I have to disagree with you. When you're discussing women's bodies and blaming women for the choices they make about their own bodies, it becomes a feminist issue.

I work as a school counselor, which I've done for many years. I've seen first hand what the pressures of society and the popular media can do to girls and young women. I experienced them myself growing up. I also know my younger brother didn't experience any of it. He faced no double standards about his sexual choices, while I did. He faced no double standards about his looks and appearance, while I did. He faced no double standards about speaking his mind, while I constantly did. Even now, I'm sure there are people on this forum who see me as a "bitch" for choosing to speak my mind, while they wouldn't think anything of the kind about a guy who chooses to do the same.

Why is it that there are so many more commercials for women than there are for men? Why are women always the ones featured in laundry and household supply commercials? Why are there so many more commercials for womens' hygiene products than there are for men? Hair removal, sunless tanning, diet industry, etc.? And consider the number of women who fall within the typical media-standard definition of "hot" and are featured in ads for men. The beer ads, car ads, ads for men's hygiene products. If you want to sell something to a heterosexual man, apparently you need to include a woman with a socially acceptable body type.

Until you've taken the time to examine and think about these issues, I understand that they can be easy to miss. But I've been on this planet for a few more years than you have and I've done my homework. I speak from experience. Absorb some history and perhaps it will begin to make sense to you, too.
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That was then, this is now. Times have changed.

I would like to point out, that nearly 90% of the people who have joined in this disucssion have disagreed with what you have said. Your opinion is very very far to the left and quite extremist, and you have refused to listen or concider what anyone else has said. It's instantly regarded as wrong because "we don't understand". Your catagorizing women as deserving special and better treatment and you demand it from everyone else. Well, that is really just as bad as treating them unfairly.

EVERY group in this planet has its ills, and they are no better or no worse. I am a gay male. I have had many fellow gay men say our "plight" is one of the worse out of all the "groups" out there. I disagree, all groups have their own issues and problems, and no group is better or worse because of it. Homosexuals issues are no worse or better then any other groups races, or sexes.
 
The thing is, whoever decided that these women were supposed to be the pinnacle of beauty? Surely not the fashion designers because if they really did have the most beautiful women in the world it would distract from the clothing.

High fashion demands thinness because it looks "interesting" and "edgy" in the same way a severe car crash is interesting and edgy.

It's also probably easier to make an outfit for someone with the least amount of curves as possible. Same reason Jeeps are built like boxes and Porsches are curvy like women.

If you want to point the finger at anybody it should be the beauty pageants, they DO claim to show the pinnacle of beauty and the Miss World etc. contestants have been shrinking for decades.

Oh and thin can be healthy.
 
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