high fashion models are too thin

[slant]

Slant, honey, you're getting yourself in a tizzy. I've not once argued that women are not responsible for their actions. What I'm arguing is that it's not ok to comment on those actions and those choices. If you cut your hair, is it anyone else's business but yours how you feel about your hair and how you look with your new haircut? No. No one else has the right to comment on your hair or your looks as you walk down the street. If they don't like your haircut, it's wrong of them to blame you for "offending" their aesthetic sensibilities. And that's what the boys and girls in this thread seem to want to argue it's perfectly ok to do with runway models. They want to blame the runway models for offending their sense of how a woman's body is "supposed to" look. And in my mind, that's not ok.

I agree that an unnaturally thin runway model could make better choices, but I'm not going to cause more harm than good by imposing my beliefs on her and making a comment about her looks, snarking about her body and making concentration camp jokes. That's not ok. Do you get me?

Ok. That's fine, but when you said "When you're discussing women's bodies and blaming women for the choices they make about their own bodies, it becomes a feminist issue.", it was not clear; the way you phrased it suggested that it's not okay to blame women for the choices they make, which, actually, it is not blame, it's called responsibility.

I disagree. My experience with this issue gives me validity. I've been doing this for nearly 10 years and have heard so many young girls talk about body issues and self-esteem, that I think I know what I'm talking about. I also have a masters degree in educational counseling, with a lot of marriage & family therapy experience. Those things count for something. Once you've had similar experiences, listened to lots of other people discuss their issues, and have worked on a degree yourself, you can argue validity with me. But until then, all you can speak to is your own experience, not the experience of others.

Here is the catch. We are not discussing marriage or family therapy. If we were, I'd give you kudos and probably the credit you deserve. We are talking about eating disorders, and you do not work in that area, you have no degree in it, you aren't even a psycologist. You work in a school. Cool, that's awesome. If the topic was 'do girls who are in schools get bulimia and personally feel like the media targets them' that would be another thing. But it's not the topic and the ironic thing about this statement is that you're trying to imply, later on in this post, that because you are older you know more and have more life experience. Here is my question to you then: How on earth could these girls in school who are under the age of 25 have any IDEA about media or culture and how could they pin their eating disorders and feelings of pressure under society's ideals when they have no clue of what they are talking about because they are so young and inexpereinced in the world? If you are going to pretty much exclude anyone's opinion due to age, you need to do this with the kids you work with too. The validity of what they say and view things as, under your model, is zero. Zip. Zilch. It really doesn't matter what these girls say because they are too young to understand how the real world work and have no experience in it- add that to an underdeveloped brain and you pretty much work with kids who could possibly just be fabricating things in a underdevelped point of view, according to your model.

Just as many, if not more, of women's eating disorders go unreported. I'm aware that my brother doesn't have an eating disorder because his body does not physically fit the profile, and neither does his behavior. If it did, I would suggest that he talk with his doctor or a therapist, but I'd avoid making any comments about his body.

Good. Then you acknowledge that men have just as much problems with that area as women, that it's not just women who have the problem, that it's actually men and women who equally suffer from eating disorders and equally don't report them. Earlier you were trying to argue that men actually don't have as much pressure from the media, but hell, if men and women both have eating disorders that is contradictory. I also said I am not implying your brother had an eating disorder.

Ah, you argue with the righteousness of youth. Good for you. But you know nothing about went on behind closed doors in my house because I haven't chosen to share. You make assumptions, as you've been trained to do, because you think you're in the right.

I didn't make assumptions about anything I just stated that your logic was a fallacy because age doesn't equate knowledge; someone who is younger than you could actually know more than you, it's possible.

I never made claim that I know everything that my brother went through.

You didn't? Because you actually claimed that you knew your brother didn't go through the same things you did, so that kind of implies you knew everything he went through, because you had to have known to make the statement that he didn't go through anything that you went through. If you don't know everything that your brother went through, then you have no idea if he went through what you went through because there are things you don't know about what he went through if you don't know everything.

[/B] I do know that with my family and at the school that we both attended together, his sexual exploits and how he chose to look were not judged in the way mine were. I know because I received verbal abuse about my sexual activities and how I looked, whereas he did not. In my case, I wasn't even sexually active, but I was already being judged a slut by my family for the clothes I chose to wear, while my brother was sexually active during his last year of high school and nothing was said to him. It was perfectly fine for a boy to be out at all hours of the night, whereas I was not allowed out of the house. That's all I'll choose to share because I don't believe you need to know more. I tend to reserve it for people towards whom I feel warmth and friendliness.

This seems to me like parenting style. I assure you, not all parents treat their male children and female children so differently.

Okay, look. All I am arguing towards you is that men have just as many societal pressures as women do, if not more. The thing is that they are different societal pressures. Believe it or not, there are expectations and standards on how men are supposed to look. Ideally, a man is supposed to look buff, strong, and capable; fat men are not appealing and women do not purposely look for fat men when they are seeking companionship. The best example I can give you is: Edward Cullen. Pretty much, Edward Cullen is the women's ideal for a man right now. He is strong, perfectly sculpted, muscular, thin, handsome. These are the expectations set for men. In fact, your brother was probably sexually active because that is how society forces men to be. Women are the sexually submissive and men are the go-getters. If guys don't have sex in their teenage years people start calling them faggots or implying that there is something wrong with them. They can't be celibate like women, and those who are, are looked down upon by society--- isn't that a double standard? Our men have to have sex whether they like it or not or risk being socially executed?

I agree with you. I've never once argued that men are not portrayed as largely stupid in many commercials geared towards them. But if you look at the research and count the numbers, there are far less commercials geared towards men as there are towards women. You'll not be able to convince me, no matter how much righteous anger you pack into your arguments.

Can you link me to these statistics or are you just fabricating them?

Hon, I'm not arguing that I know more about computers than you do. I'm sure you could surpass me there with your eyes closed. I do, however, know a bit more about people than you do, simply due to the fact that I've been living on this planet and dealing with people for a slightly longer time than you have.

It's also true that the human brain does not finish developing and growing until between the ages of 23 and 25. Usually 23 for men and 25 for women. As you're not yet of that age, I'd say you have a ways to go. ...Sadly, for me, I've been past that age for quite a while.

No, but I do have a masters in educational counseling and a lot of experience with marriage and family therapy. I also have age and experience on my side and know bit more about people and their motivations than you do. Save your righteous anger for something important, like ensuring that women can exist on this planet without having constant body snark leveled in their direction, rather than taking it out on me.

FALLACY! I scream fallacy! People do not win arguments by age. If you stated that the sky was green and justified it by saying that the brain develops at 25 and your opposer is younger than 25 whereas you older and that makes you right, it would not actually make you right. That's ageism.

 

[VH]

You know what...at this point, there's something wrong here. The whole forum is ganging up on one person. Something needs to be implemented because even if we all disagree with her I don't think it's fair to bash her again and again over the issue. If this thread continues to go on this direction, which, actually was not it's intention in the first place, I personally think that the moderation team should look into it, as I can see they are probably moderating it very closely.

I disagree with you thirty's girl, but, that doesn't mean a whole thread should be dedicated to proving you wrong.

This whole discussion took an off-topic rampage.

While I agree that the whole forum shouldn't gang up on anyone, I have to admit that thirtiesgirl is doing a fine job of keeping the argument going. She's had many opportunities to state her opinions and let them stand on their own, but every time someone disagrees with them, she restates them and keeps the debates going. She's certainly sticking to her guns despite the overwhelming popular opinion against her views, and the only reason it seems like the whole forum is ganging up on her is because she's keeping the argument going.

As long as she doesn't violate any of the forum rules, she's welcome to continue her debates, and keep these debates running. Though, I hope she understands that the same applies to the other members. As long as they don't violate the forum rules, they're welcome to keep disagreeing with her.

Once someone steps outside the realm of the forum rules, then we will take an appropriate form of action. Unfortunately, heated debates that go nowhere in which points and counter points are stated over and over again are not against the forum rules.

 

[Peppermint]

Can you link me to these statistics or are you just fabricating them?

Here's an interesting tidbit: http://content.karger.com/ProdukteD...gabe=228215&ArtikelNr=56252&ContentOnly=false

 

[thirtiesgirl]

 

[thirtiesgirl]

While I agree that the whole forum shouldn't gang up on anyone, I have to admit that thirtiesgirl is doing a fine job of keeping the argument going. She's had many opportunities to state her opinions and let them stand on their own, but every time someone disagrees with them, she restates them and keeps the debates going. She's certainly sticking to her guns despite the overwhelming popular opinion against her views, and the only reason it seems like the whole forum is ganging up on her is because she's keeping the argument going.

As long as she doesn't violate any of the forum rules, she's welcome to continue her debates, and keep these debates running. Though, I hope she understands that the same applies to the other members. As long as they don't violate the forum rules, they're welcome to keep disagreeing with her.

Once someone steps outside the realm of the forum rules, then we will take an appropriate form of action. Unfortunately, heated debates that go nowhere in which points and counter points are stated over and over again are not against the forum rules.

Ah, so is this the reason why you closed the other thread? Because you got tired of me "stating and re-stating" my point of view and you thought it was a "heated debate going nowhere"? If it's not against forum rules, then why close the other thread? All it did was give other forum members who disagree with me the opportunity to give me negative rep points and send me messages they were unable to share in the closed thread. It didn't really seem like a smart move to me, although I'm sure the forum members sending the negative rep points didn't mind in the least.

 

[Norton]

In my case, I am doing something that has value for me and to the people I serve. I'm a high school counselor and I deal with too many kids who have low self-esteem and eating disorders because of constant body commentary by their friends, their family, internet forums like this one, and the popular media. This is part of the way I try to help them out, by speaking out against body snark when I see it. By bringing up the idea that, hey, maybe it's not ok to comment on women's bodies as if they're just objects for ridicule or sexual objectification.

Norton, I understand you're trying to be the "voice of reason" here, but why do you believe your ideas about healthful living and looking good are "the best" for everyone? You're imposing your assumptions. Assumptions that, yes, do go hand in hand with what the popular media, medical, diet and weight loss industries often espouse to us as the "right thing" to do. But keep in mind that there are those on the planet who may choose to live their lives in a different way and don't feel it's ok for you to say what's "best" for them or not, simply because you believe it's true.

It sounds like your work is important.

OTOH, in what way is eating "good healthy food in optimum quantities and exercis[ing]" being in the best of health for all human beings an assumption and not a scientifically verified principle. I am not aware of studies that prove that exercise is bad for health, that non-optimum quantities of food are good for health and that bad food is good for health. Also, when you assert that "there are those on the planet who may choose to live their lives in a different way," could you be referring to anorexic models and, thus, asserting that it is their willful choice to be "unhealthily" thin and, thereby, excusing the fashion industry? This obviates some of your previously stated positions.

I don't generally try to offend people by telling them what I think of their life choices, appearances, and what I believe is "best for them" simply because I believe it's true. But, sometimes I do. And, if they don't like it, they can tell me to go to hell. Sometimes, especially when I'm confronted by stupidity, of which there is plenty in society (as limited as the concept of IQ is as a measure of "intelligence," half of society have an IQ less than 100, by definition), I speak my mind, the devil be damned. I've trained my kids (now grown) to be tough, think for themselves, and be individuals. Had I daughters, they'd also have been trained to be tough, have black belts, be fit, and extremely hard working.

 

[TinyBubbles]

Slant, honey, you're getting yourself in a tizzy. I've not once argued that women are not responsible for their actions. What I'm arguing is that it's not ok to comment on those actions and those choices. If you cut your hair, is it anyone else's business but yours how you feel about your hair and how you look with your new haircut? No. No one else has the right to comment on your hair or your looks as you walk down the street. If they don't like your haircut, it's wrong of them to blame you for "offending" their aesthetic sensibilities. And that's what the boys and girls in this thread seem to want to argue it's perfectly ok to do with runway models. They want to blame the runway models for offending their sense of how a woman's body is "supposed to" look. And in my mind, that's not ok.

I agree with you, it isn't appropriate to make disparaging comments about another's individual lifestyle choices (male or female), but it's also kind of unrealistic to expect people not to, especially if they feel strongly about them. censorship only encourages dark thoughts in private; people might stop saying women are too fat etc. in public, but they'd still think it and joke about it in private, in the company of similar minded persons. what you're proposing is to change deeply embedded cultural values and the prejudices derived from them - not an easy feat, by any stretch of the imagination but I admire that you've taken it upon yourself to endeavor to do such a thing, because in small increments, people like you probably will have an overall progressive effect.

 

[the]

I think they are a good size.

 

[Shai Gar]

I think they are a good size.

 

[the]

I like that they can perform their own abortions!

 

[arbygil]

So it's ok for Shai Gar to make concentration camp jokes, but not ok for me to comment on someone's age? Interesting.

Never said that was ok either - and we've called him on it, several times. And we're calling b.s. on ageism now. In the same way it's not okay to belittle anyone for their beliefs, or their quality of life, or their race, sex, what have you...it's not okay to call someone ignorant because of his/her age.

End of story.

 

[Satya]

It is estimated that 8 million Americans have an eating disorder

 

[Quinlan]

What about suicide stats? I'm pretty sure in my country it's dominated by men.

 

[RecklessDreamer]

I don't think anyone should starve themselves for beauty but I do know some people are naturally thin. I wish i could gain weight because I get a lot of jokes about being skinny especially in the south where big is beautiful. I can't help it. I hate being so little.

 

[aeon]

Consider that it can become very difficult to take responsibility for your body if you're faced with constant blame for what you choose to do with it.

I did consider it, and I disagree that it is difficult. The responsibility is with oneself from the beginning, regardless of what one is faced with. There is no need to take it on, much less difficulty in so doing.

What is perhaps difficult, if one chooses to make it so, is the acceptance of what is already so.

That said, my sense is that most people choose to make acceptance difficult because acceptance requires one to be present with one's own pain and suffering, and most people actively seek to avoid those feelings.


cheers,
Ian

 

[aeon]

No one else has the right to comment on your hair or your looks as you walk down the street. If they don't like your haircut, it's wrong of them to blame you for "offending" their aesthetic sensibilities.

Actually, this is incorrect. At least in the United States, you have the right to make such a comment as guaranteed by the First Amendment.

That said, I agree with you in that the responsibility for being offended lies with the the person who chooses to be offended.

On the other hand, I don't value your moral judgement of those who would choose to comment as wrong. I do value Nonviolent Communication as articulated by Dr. Marshall Rosenberg. In approaching those who would comment without judging them, you may find more success in engaging with their persons, being heard in your experience, understanding theirs, creating a deeper connection, and bringing resolution to conflict.

My experience with this issue gives me validity.

I appreciate that you think that, but I also appreciate that validity is not a function of experience.

I think I know what I'm talking about.

Your expression has made this very clear to me.

I can appreciate your expression of value as it concerns women being respected in their persons and not judged for their choices. At the same time, I think extending the same valuation to all people, respecting their persons, and not judging them for the choices they make would go a long way in establishing goodwill between and among those concerned.

You've spoken many times to your knowledge of the quality and quantity of others' experience. Know that should you continue to choose to do so without actually having had their experience, you may find it difficult to find an audience receptive to your ideas, arguments, story, and values.


cheers,
Ian

 

[Skathac]

Whew...lotta sparks flying, I expected to hear explosions and see some car fires in here before I got to where I am now in my reading.

Someone posts a picture on this forum then I may or may not comment on it, just depends on how I feel. The picture Shai Gar posted made every single picture I've ever looked at of Nazi concentration camps and those tortured Jewish souls so malnourished it about breaks my damn heart to think about it...how can someone do something so terrible to another human being. So when I see women that feel like they need to go to such lengths, I feel terrible for them and yeah I feel strongly enough about it to comment. I also find the malnourished look to be very unattractive...but then again they make alot more money than I do and if they truly enjoy their body and their work more power to em.

I've yet to see a serious case of this from the male's perspective(the malnourished concentration camp look) unless it had something to do with disease. I do find the body archetype that I am supposed to strive for to be almost impossible to achieve and it does bother me to a degree. I've shown better balance, agility, and stamina in the wilderness than some other guys that are visibly fitter than me by media standards, but they damn well had a one up on me when it came to the eye candy factor. *shrugs*

Wish I knew what all women went through from their perspective, I've had some experiences that could be comparable to certain things...but comparable isn't like actually experiencing it first hand. Having worked in enough matriarchal work environments I no longer see women as having any more to gripe about than I do...except the monthly visitor, pregnancy, and child birth. Those three things definitely make it tougher to be your gender and I'm so happy that I will never have to go through them in this lifetime.

In terms of societal pressures though, I'm saying we're pretty damn equal in those regards. Yeah you could probably give me a whole book of statistics as to why x gender is more affected by something that affects both genders. I just think its more fair to say that both genders have societal pressures placed on them and its bullshit to think that any of us have to fit into these molds.

Ok, my meandering ramble is over for now.

 

[Billy]

they're too thin.

Too thin for what?

 

[Detective Conan]

It's odd that high fashion models are still as thin as they are. I mean, with all those shows with healthy, thin (ish) women on them, I'd think that there'd be some sort of change in mainstream fashion.

But, then again, maybe it's easier to be emotionless on the runway when you don't have enough skin to make any facial expressions... That's how I've seen runway models upon closer examination. After all, the runway event is to show off the clothes; it just so happens there's someone under them.

The argument above is pretty heated, as well. I feared this topic would've led to it from the start, but without any sexism in the original post, that makes the argument all the more impressive.

 

[Billy]

Whats with the thin hate? Damn... its not ok to hate someone because they're obese but its ok to hate because they're too thin? No comprende... I dont think its odd at all that runway models are still so thin, that has always been modern high fashions culture.