How do/don't you rationalize God

just me said:
Do you understand what the fear of the Lord is?
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The problem is I don't consider god a loved one. In that the christian idea that we shouldn't offend god because he loves us. that we should fear god's judgment even though he is supposed to have created us. I don't consider god or fear of him to be paramount to gaining wisdom. Further living in fear (any kind) is not logical or reasonable. I refuse to live in fear of some deity that I can in no way see, interact with or quantify.
 
I had a paradigm shift in my thinking once I realized there were things I could perceive and know to be real but were 100% untestable / unverifiable. Namely, qualia. That doesn't necessarily mean God does exist, of course. But it certainly means God could exist and be outside of verifiability. Again, just like qualia. It's really not that hard of a concept once you have a few concrete examples.

Also, I think a lot of people aren't so much rejecting God as much as they are rejecting someone else's definition of God. As in: The Christian Yahweh or Zeus or whatever. They see the absurdity of it all and rightfully so, but they don't "zoom out" far enough to recognize that a lot of it still points to some kind of phenomena - which I will gladly concede may be nothing more than neurology, btw.
 
To me, believing in God and science is counterintuitive. I prefer science, because my mind requires evidence in order to be satisfied, and, most of the time, science can provide that evidence.
 
Blind Bandit said:
The problem is I don't consider god a loved one. In that the christian idea that we shouldn't offend god because he loves us. that we should fear god's judgment even though he is supposed to have created us. I don't consider god or fear of him to be paramount to gaining wisdom. Further living in fear (any kind) is not logical or reasonable. I refuse to live in fear of some deity that I can in no way see, interact with or quantify.
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So, you do not understand what the fear of the Lord is. Fear is used altruistically and does not mean to hide underneath your bed like when lightning strikes next door. Look into it and let me know what you find..............
the spirit of knowledge, and of the fear of the Lord; and so as man had the "knowledge" of God the Father; of his mind and will; of the Scriptures, and things contained therein; of the law and Gospel; all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge were hid in him, which he communicates to his saints; and "of the fear of the Lord", and so had a reverence of him, a strict regard to his will, and always did the things which pleased him; see Hebrews 5:7 this verse is also applied to the Messiah, both by ancient and modern Jews (u). Hebrews 12 helps to explain what we have come unto.
 
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Barnabas said:
I'm gonna hit this in chunks
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It would be better to say people are displaying godly emotions, and these emotions would only breed weakness when coupled with sin and imperfection.
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But how do you rationalize this when emotions are imperfect by their very nature? Perfection would be looking at a situation without emotion and coming up with the most logical solution. The second you add a hint of emotion, you imbalance the whole equation.

When God was upset by other religions such as the Romans or the Jews, he would have known the outcome of pressuring those religions. A "perfect" God would have allowed them to practice what they wanted to practice, setting aside his own emotions about it. An imperfect God would have been angered by it and created rifts that caused centuries of war and devastation... which one did God choose again?

So the lesson I'm learning from God is to not have his emotions so I can save myself and others from anger and grief.
 
just me said:
So, you do not understand what the fear of the Lord is. Fear is used altruistically and does not mean to hide underneath your bed like when lightning strikes next door. Look into it and let me know what you find..............
the spirit of knowledge, and of the fear of the Lord; and so as man had the "knowledge" of God the Father; of his mind and will; of the Scriptures, and things contained therein; of the law and Gospel; all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge were hid in him, which he communicates to his saints; and "of the fear of the Lord", and so had a reverence of him, a strict regard to his will, and always did the things which pleased him; see Hebrews 5:7 this verse is also applied to the Messiah, both by ancient and modern Jews (u). Hebrews 12 helps to explain what we have come unto.
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Don't quote verses at me I have no time for fairy tails.
 
just me said:
Do you understand what the fear of the Lord is?
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Though this isn't addressed to me...

From the perspective of a non-Christian: Understanding and respect of the fact that sometimes life will reward you or kick your ass without explanation or justification. From what I've seen, some Christians tend to rationalize this as being "All part of God's plan". I rationalize it as "Well, that's what the fuck just happened." In either case, you can either choose to move on or not. It is not an excuse (and I don't mean to insinuate that you're saying it is) to avoid putting effort into what you aim to achieve, but rather a means by which to accept what is fated if your most sincere efforts don't come to fruition in the way you intended.

Beyond that, I suspect that fear of the Lord entails an element of humility and a sense of leaning toward the positive side of karma.

As an aside, I'm not disturbed a bit by the idea that there could be an omnipotent force or creator that doesn't have a "personality" or concern for us.
 
Lerxst said:
But how do you rationalize this when emotions are imperfect by their very nature? Perfection would be looking at a situation without emotion and coming up with the most logical solution. The second you add a hint of emotion, you imbalance the whole equation.

When God was upset by other religions such as the Romans or the Jews, he would have known the outcome of pressuring those religions. A "perfect" God would have allowed them to practice what they wanted to practice, setting aside his own emotions about it. An imperfect God would have been angered by it and created rifts that caused centuries of war and devastation... which one did God choose again?

So the lesson I'm learning from God is to not have his emotions so I can save myself and others from anger and grief.
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There's no such thing as perfect - it's only a subjective ideal.

For example, can you explain why a perfect god would allow them to do what you say? What objective purpose would that serve?

Perfect means something that is absolute and has all of its required elements, without flaws. In order to have that, one must conceive of an ideal form. But the ideal form is subjective as it depends on what you believe to be necessary and good - and that is not how the universe works.

Logic is a systematic way of making things less mercurial. Without emotion, you have no reason to apply it, as without emotion you have no aversions to perceived imperfections. Without it, you're under inertia or instinctive behaviors and wouldn't care if things make sense or not.

Without emotion you cannot have ideal and without ideal you cannot have perfection, and if you can't have perfection then your statement erases itself.
 
just me said:
How many of you "fear" your Father?
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I guess I still dont understand what you are getting at. Though it sounds to me as if you still believe that there is potentailly a God, just not one that nescessarly has mankinds best interest at heart?
 
Eventhorizon said:
I guess I still dont understand what you are getting at. Though it sounds to me as if you still believe that there is potentailly a God, just not one that nescessarly has mankinds best interest at heart?
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I would call that a poor choice of words to put in my mouth.
 
[MENTION=680]just me[/MENTION]

Your approach to the topic of "the fear of the Lord" is probably getting under some people's skin because it is vague, indirect, and may seem to come across as someone trying to be mysterious.



I think it always helps to define things, in the first instance by considering what it is not.


Fear of the Lord is not:
* fear of his 'anger'
* fear of punishment
* fear of hell
* etc.

Fear of the Lord is fear of God, insofar as he is God.

How/why should one have fear of a benign, perfect God?
* It seems to me, that fear of God can be analogous to the fear of vast enormities, such as the space between galaxies. In such a sense, "fear of the Lord", seems to me more akin to a sense of awe, or something like that - kind of like if you have ever seen a NASA launch close up.
 
Flavus Aquila said:
@just me

Your approach to the topic of "the fear of the Lord" is probably getting under some people's skin because it is vague, indirect, and may seem to come across as someone trying to be mysterious.



I think it always helps to define things, in the first instance by considering what it is not.


Fear of the Lord is not:
* fear of his 'anger'
* fear of punishment
* fear of hell
* etc.

Fear of the Lord is fear of God, insofar as he is God.

How/why should one have fear of a benign, perfect God?
* It seems to me, that fear of God can be analogous to the fear of vast enormities, such as the space between galaxies. In such a sense, "fear of the Lord", seems to me more akin to a sense of awe, or something like that - kind of like if you have ever seen a NASA launch close up.
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Thanks, Flavus. However, there's nothing like a light going bright inside a researching person's mind.
 
Eventhorizon said:
Here is my turn to end that...

Up until I was 25 for so I think I sort of \ kind of believed in "God" because it was implied I should through my family and on TV etc... But I asked questions throughout my life. By the time I was 35 I was pretty much an all-out atheist in the since that I did not believe in most peoples definition of "God'. However there were still vestiges of it left in my head. By about 38 — 39 or so I made an all-out effort to answer the question for myself once and for all, to come to a final conclusion because I was tired of thinking about it. Through massive research and information gathering I finally decided that nothing like the God described in the bible existed. It was about this same time I became very very sick. Some days I wonder if it’s a coincidence. I used to shake my fist at the sky, telling the imaginary God I would punish it for all the wrong it let happen in the world but when I came to my end conclusion, I stopped doing that. Where did all that anger go if I couldn’t let it out anymore? Well naturally you turn it into yourself not to let it out into the world. I suspect that alone can make you sick.
The short story here is, while I am personally sure there is no God, I am not sure the lack of belief in one is healthy. For as completely odd as that sounds….
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If this belief is already a part of you, probably taking it out would be like pulling a knife out of a stab wound.

But very people can live with the understanding that they shape their lives based on a figment of someone else's imagination, even if they only understand it subconsciously. It's healthier to go with your own sense of reason, I think.
 
I found out through consistent contemplations of death that I do believe in a god of some sort, though before this I probably wouldve classified myself as agnostic.

My stance towards this god when issues such as death or my own identities credibility come up is always one of blame and ange. It is like I want to hold something accountable for the parts of myself or reality I judge as harsh or unfair. But that explanation is theoretical, it wouldnt surprise me if my need for a god has deeper implications.

As far as rationalizing goes I would atm consider my belief irrational because it is a belief, as in something that I have no experiential verification for. Im not saying there is or isnt a god, im saying that I personally cant tell one way or the other so I wouldnt consider it rational to posit either view as reality but investigate what i gain or lose by doing so.
 
I came upon a gentleman recently who objected to the blatant anthropomorphicization of God. He was furious that people presumably attach onto God all those silly "human" traits that one often sees in humanity. The negative traits, no doubt.

Now, if one were to take away one's presumed notions of God, what one has is either no God or a God (or Gods) who is far different than one has presumed. This has made it easier to rationalize his (or their) existence. Even if one were to believe that God is correctly described in the Bible or another text (or that the human Jesus as described in one or another tradition is a correct representation of God), for instance, one may do well to separate one's notions of him from his actual, unedited state ─ i.e., purged from the objectionable or false human notions of him.

That is how I "rationalize" him.
 
I often think of the Lord's Prayer told us by Jesus. My fear becomes reverence and love. Godly fear is not the same as fear of a person, imo. It first states God is our Father in Heaven; a heavenly Father. I will not break out the Interlinear Translations and Greek texts with Lexicons, but will rather make this personal. Hallowed be Thy name. Holy is your name, God. There are none others like you in this respect. Your word is holy. Your son is holy. You are holiness. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. His Kingdom dwells within me. That is His will. It has become my will. I now seek holiness. Give us this day our daily bread. Help us with our sustenance. Help us with your words. Help us to find that we need as a sparrow searching among the leaves. Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those that trespass against us. We acknowledge we are human with mere human frailties, and we ask forgiveness on a level we forgive others at or in. We understand to ask forgiveness without offering it shows a certain standing away from God. We want to be as much like God's love as we can. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. In other words, we acknowledge the precept holiness is not a simple task and we ask for His guidance. Next comes the Godly awe: for Thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory; for ever and ever. A'men..............................................................................................................................................................................................................Fearing God must take on many different appearances, but my fear of God is out of reverence, honor, acknowledgement of His omnipotence, and the peace within He gives me when I follow Him...........................................................Anyone that destroyeth the Temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy: which temple ye are. Do I fear this? I rather glory in it...................Hence, the fear of the Lord is wisdom; and the turning away from evil, understanding. The fear of God is not so vague; but, rather personal. I feel it cannot be taught by man, but rather learned by His teaching us...................................................As per the question how we rationalize God: I do not feel the need. He leadeth me.
 
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