How do/don't you rationalize God

just me said:
I would call that a poor choice of words to put in my mouth.
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Seeing your other posts that makes sense. But it wasnt an attempt to put words in your mouth, only an attempt to understand that ones coming out. My mistake
 
How do I rationalize or not rationalize God? Hmmmm. To be honest, I don't much think about a God much anymore, except in a vague, distant sort of way. I don't believe in the personal God that most people in my culture believe in; an omnipotent, omniscient entity that listens, considers, and maybe fulfills one's prayers. I'm just going to type and see where it goes.

A couple of months ago, a cousin of mine died from astrocytoma, one of the most aggressive brain tumors known to man. He was only sixteen years old. He lived as long as he did because of the quality of the healthcare he received and the love and support he received from those around him. No amount of praying would have come close to accomplishing that.

Perhaps I'm a bit esoteric in my understanding of God, but I believe the universe itself was created by a God to be a self-contained, self-creating entity. The universe is a creation that is capable of creating on its own, bound by the laws of its substances, yet with enough freedom to account for the diversity of the phenomenon we see in the universe and throughout life itself. It is random, meaning if the Big Bang were to happen again, things would've unfolded slightly differently, Earth probably wouldn't have existed, we would not be here, but something like us would be. I have little doubt that life exists elsewhere in this vast universe, but we are not likely to ever find it: How wonderful it would be to find it. I just find the idea that there could've been an infinite number of ways that the universe could've unfolded to be wonderfully beautiful and thought provoking.

I think that we are limited by our biology, our five senses, our brain, and cannot perceive of what is truly out there for us, much like a fish not knowing at all what the world we live in is like. It's frustrating that even with our sizable brains, we will never be able to grasp the complexity of worlds beyond our own world.

Life is a work of art, we are all part of it, we have evolved out its processes. We are capable of abstract thought because that is just how our brains evolved. As a results we can perceive beauty, love, and justice and create works of art and music and literature. We create these things into our existence; It is a part of our nature. We create our own world, our own values and most of us create a God to hold it all together. There is nothing wrong with this, as long as we aren't using it to harm other people, and force them believe in a tiny slice of the realities we have created or envisioned. But we can do better. If we desire a better society, and a better world, all that need be done is for us to change our perspective, to look beyond the trees to see the forest, realize that a change in values is all we really need to create a world that is more just and filled with more love. What could be better than this in the short time we walk the Earth?

I believe there is something beyond the edges of our own universe, that the universe is a tree, standing still in its own vast forest. To look at it another way, our universe is but a drop of paint on a canvas. It is because of this I don't find comfort in any religion, their concepts of God seem too focused on humanity alone, and they often seem defy the laws of physics as I've come to understand them, which doesn't seem too likely. I find religion to be beautiful in its own right; the stories, the rituals, the values. I also love mythologies, to think about what cultures long ago believed in.

I think we are indeed a wonderful species, but we are more than just that. We are one branch on the tree of life, and we all have a common origin, and that is beautiful. I wouldn't have it any other way. Anyways, I'm just kicking back before having to go into work and thought I'd try to flesh out some ideas I've had. I don't know if anything I said makes any sense to anyone else, I think I just kind of rambled, and for that I apologize. It is no wonder that I never sleep at night thinking about such things. :smile:
 
Eventhorizon said:
Seeing your other posts that makes sense. But it wasnt an attempt to put words in your mouth, only an attempt to understand that ones coming out. My mistake
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We all make attempts in our own attire to dress things up the best we can. No foul and no mistake.
 
Jimmers said:
How do I rationalize or not rationalize God? Hmmmm. To be honest, I don't much think about a God much anymore, except in a vague, distant sort of way. I don't believe in the personal God that most people in my culture believe in; an omnipotent, omniscient entity that listens, considers, and maybe fulfills one's prayers. I'm just going to type and see where it goes.

A couple of months ago, a cousin of mine died from astrocytoma, one of the most aggressive brain tumors known to man. He was only sixteen years old. He lived as long as he did because of the quality of the healthcare he received and the love and support he received from those around him. No amount of praying would have come close to accomplishing that.

Perhaps I'm a bit esoteric in my understanding of God, but I believe the universe itself was created by a God to be a self-contained, self-creating entity. The universe is a creation that is capable of creating on its own, bound by the laws of its substances, yet with enough freedom to account for the diversity of the phenomenon we see in the universe and throughout life itself. It is random, meaning if the Big Bang were to happen again, things would've unfolded slightly differently, Earth probably wouldn't have existed, we would not be here, but something like us would be. I have little doubt that life exists elsewhere in this vast universe, but we are not likely to ever find it: How wonderful it would be to find it. I just find the idea that there could've been an infinite number of ways that the universe could've unfolded to be wonderfully beautiful and thought provoking.

I think that we are limited by our biology, our five senses, our brain, and cannot perceive of what is truly out there for us, much like a fish not knowing at all what the world we live in is like. It's frustrating that even with our sizable brains, we will never be able to grasp the complexity of worlds beyond our own world.

Life is a work of art, we are all part of it, we have evolved out its processes. We are capable of abstract thought because that is just how our brains evolved. As a results we can perceive beauty, love, and justice and create works of art and music and literature. We create these things into our existence; It is a part of our nature. We create our own world, our own values and most of us create a God to hold it all together. There is nothing wrong with this, as long as we aren't using it to harm other people, and force them believe in a tiny slice of the realities we have created or envisioned. But we can do better. If we desire a better society, and a better world, all that need be done is for us to change our perspective, to look beyond the trees to see the forest, realize that a change in values is all we really need to create a world that is more just and filled with more love. What could be better than this in the short time we walk the Earth?

I believe there is something beyond the edges of our own universe, that the universe is a tree, standing still in its own vast forest. To look at it another way, our universe is but a drop of paint on a canvas. It is because of this I don't find comfort in any religion, their concepts of God seem too focused on humanity alone, and they often seem defy the laws of physics as I've come to understand them, which doesn't seem too likely. I find religion to be beautiful in its own right; the stories, the rituals, the values. I also love mythologies, to think about what cultures long ago believed in.

I think we are indeed a wonderful species, but we are more than just that. We are one branch on the tree of life, and we all have a common origin, and that is beautiful. I wouldn't have it any other way. Anyways, I'm just kicking back before having to go into work and thought I'd try to flesh out some ideas I've had. I don't know if anything I said makes any sense to anyone else, I think I just kind of rambled, and for that I apologize. It is no wonder that I never sleep at night thinking about such things. :smile:
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I guess this is a rationalization for your not believing in God, but rather your own thoughts? Join the ranks and files of the insomniacs.
 
Lerxst said:
But how do you rationalize this when emotions are imperfect by their very nature? Perfection would be looking at a situation without emotion and coming up with the most logical solution. The second you add a hint of emotion, you imbalance the whole equation.

When God was upset by other religions such as the Romans or the Jews, he would have known the outcome of pressuring those religions. A "perfect" God would have allowed them to practice what they wanted to practice, setting aside his own emotions about it. An imperfect God would have been angered by it and created rifts that caused centuries of war and devastation... which one did God choose again?

So the lesson I'm learning from God is to not have his emotions so I can save myself and others from anger and grief.
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Three assumptions

1) emotions are/can be inherently imperfect

Can't really to respond to this more then a "not uh," unless we define emotion and well realistically I don't want to right now and even If I did I imagine it would derail the thread and just cause more strife.

2) Perfection requires the ability to look at a situation without emotion

I whole heartedly disagree, with out emotion grace and compassion can be entered into a situation, that means whenever there's sin it's simply punished without regards to the individual who committed the sin. which s kind of what your looking for if I'm reading this right.

You want God to overlook the actions of other because it it would cause pain to them to act against what they have done. But what reason is there to give grace and mercy when God doesn't feel either of those. More so what basis is the for Justice when God does not feel anger or disappointment over wrong doing.

3) That God pressured other religions causing years of war and strife.

I think it's a bit of a fore gone conclusion that were talking about the Jewdeo Christian God at this point, but I figure I should make it clear that is who I'm speaking of and can only give responses in regards to God as understood in that light.

That Being said, God rarely took direct action against other religions in the old or new testament and even then it was when the adherents of other religions were directly involved in the affairs of either the Jews or the Christians. He only responded to against those who had chosen to attack, abuse and enslave his people. I wouldn't want any part of a god who looked at his peoples suffering and ignored it because it would cause strife fore those who don't believe in him.
 
knight in battle said:
I came upon a gentleman recently who objected to the blatant anthropomorphicization of God. He was furious that people presumably attach onto God all those silly "human" traits that one often sees in humanity. The negative traits, no doubt.

Now, if one were to take away one's presumed notions of God, what one has is either no God or a God (or Gods) who is far different than one has presumed. This has made it easier to rationalize his (or their) existence. Even if one were to believe that God is correctly described in the Bible or another text (or that the human Jesus as described in one or another tradition is a correct representation of God), for instance, one may do well to separate one's notions of him from his actual, unedited state ─ i.e., purged from the objectionable or false human notions of him.

That is how I "rationalize" him.
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Oh...that's what I meant to say! Lovely and coherent. Thank you.
 
Maven said:
The question suggests that God can be understood using only human reasoning
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Actually it does not suggest that God can be understood using only human reasoning.
It suggests that God may be understood using human reasoning, and does not address other forms of reasoning. Therefore the word 'only' does not inherently apply. The presence of the word 'only' changes the entire proposition to something else.

which assumes human reason maybe superior and paramount to any other rhyme or reason.
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It does not assume this, it only assumes that human reason is sufficient. For example, one with sufficient reasoning skills can do addition. One with advanced reasoning skills can still do addition, but they can maybe also do calculus as well. So logically this is not an inherent implication.

If God surpasses human reason, then even if human reasoning can't explain them, would it still mean he can't or doesn't exist?
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The two parts of the question do not relate to each other, because whether or not God surpasses human reason has no inherent relation to whether God exists or not. A lot of things that exist have been beyond available reasoning prior to some point - take other galaxies as a very good example.

However, I posit that God cannot be known fully or reasoned, so all of this is moot. However if God does exist then God is clearly able to make some aspects of himself reasonable and knowable since people go around claiming to know things about God. So either they are right which would entail that these things are knowable, or that God has given them an ability which gives them reasoning abilities beyond normal humans so they can comprehend these things (and they are still right but not on their own), or they are mistaken.
 
Also one can ask some interesting questions involving apparent paradoxes.

For example, what is the significance of God loving the world so much that he sent his only son to die? Could God not have made another Jesus or ten? Would that make the sacrifice of Jesus less significant if "God so loved the world he sent one of his ten sons"? If it would, shouldn't it mean that the significance of sending his only son was entirely self imposed, which is nearly as paradoxical as Jesus also being God?

Note these are just questions, not me claiming to know anything or make conclusions, other than the fact that the better you are at reasoning and juggling possible connectives, the more incomprehensible it gets. If this were to be a real trend it would indicate basically that the smarter you are, the less you can understand it, to put it crudely.
 
If god is merciful why does he sentence millions to an eternity of torture in hell? Sentencing just one person to this would be a more immoral act than it is even possible for a human being to commit. The idea of god is rife with inconsistencies. It proves itself wrong in countless ways.

Oh and btw if its metaphor then IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. It cant be metaphor and be true so whenever someone tries this tactic with you you should take it as an admission of defeat
 
Fear. Fear is the engine and foundation.
 
Pleiades said:
for me it's not fear. for me it's beauty. beauty and the symmetry of things, the intricacy of what is unaccountably huge and infinitesimally small. but we've discussed this :)
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Sure. My statement is only my opinion that I believe is informed.

There is no doubt many people find beauty in things that elude me. Perception of the world around us and how it can be so vastly different is always interesting if nothing else.
 
'God' is another word for 'energy'. 'Energy' exists therefore 'God' exists.

So, when someone says, "Look around...God is everywhere", that would be an accurate statement.
 
Anywhere But Here said:
'God' is another word for 'energy'. 'Energy' exists therefore 'God' exists.

So, when someone says, "Look around...God is everywhere", that would be an accurate statement.
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Yes, exactly! it's how wide one can set their sights... or conversely how narrow -- Is the criteria stringent or pliant? The answer is yes. yes, because it's so personalized and yet, so much bigger than us.
 
Anywhere But Here said:
'God' is another word for 'energy'. 'Energy' exists therefore 'God' exists.

So, when someone says, "Look around...God is everywhere", that would be an accurate statement.
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If you say it that way one can not possibly not believe in god. This touches on a point I have been trying to get people to think about. There appears to be no one standard definition of god. Therefore when someone asks you if you believe, how can you possibly know what they are talking about to begin with? Also can I not say god is "chocolate chip cookies? " Who is anyone to tell me I am wrong?
 
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