How do you use extraverted feeling? How do you experience it?

John K said:
How do you understand and use extraverted feeling? What is it like to be on the receiving end of Fe?

I had a lot of problems understanding the functions when I was trying to establish my type. I think one of the things that confused me was the way Fe is equated with ‘Harmony’ in many of the sources. While catchwords like this are powerful hooks that give a vivid mental image of something abstract, they can also replace the fundamental meaning with a truncated and sanitised version of it.

I’m certainly happy that Harmony is an aspect of Fe, but surely it’s not all of it? I’d like to move away from the idea that Fe is only a good, nice function, and accept that it can be used for good or ill judgements, just like extraverted thinking. It’s hard to go against such a powerful meme though - so I’ve tried to crack it open by extending the catchword approach to 5 suggested types of Fe behaviour and mapping them onto the 5 different sorts of taste: Sweet, Salt, Savoury, Sour and Bitter. Of course, just as food can have a blend of these tastes, it seems to me that Fe can be a blend too - sweet and sour, salty savoury, etc.

Let me know what you think ……

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SWEET HARMONY is the flavour we are all familiar with: It’s I love you, you are loveable. It’s when I want you to feel good. And it’s when you make me feel good. It's ... that was a great thing you did. It’s when I forgive you. It’s when you don’t like me, but you still want good things for me. It's when I can’t thank you enough, or when I will sacrifice a lot to make you happy. It’s let’s find a way to sort this out. It’s well done! ... It’s how awful! I’m here for you .... or how pleased I am that things have worked out so well for you.

SALTY NURTURE is the Fe that cares for people’s development: education, social skills, safety, health, spiritual growth. It’s the parent that removes a dangerous object from a child, or teaches them to share. It's the teacher who challenges misbehaviour, poor attitude. It’s a coach that pushes an athlete beyond the pain barrier in training, the manager that deliberately places a promising member of staff outside their comfort zone so they will develop. It’s the friend who challenges us when we are doing something wrong.

SAVOURY EXPLOITATION covers a range of possibilities that run from gaining advantage through to taking advantage for an ulterior purpose. It’s the advert that says ‘buy me and you will be happy – everyone else is doing it’. It’s the politician or clergyman glad-handing, their eyes already shifting over your shoulder to the next person while their smile is still pointed at you. It’s when you mother insists you can’t have a quiet wedding because the family wants a big one. It’s when you are buying a car and you make friends with the salesman, so you and he are all nice guys and he gives you a bigger discount. It’s please fix this problem - I’m pretty upset and annoyed about it.

SOUR SPITE is the Fe that tailgates you because you are in my way and I want you to go faster or get out of my way. It’s when you boost your self esteem by making me feel inadequate. It’s when I don’t like you and want you to know it because that gives me a kick. It’s when I want to control you for your own good - I love you, why don’t you do what I want. Or trust me - I want to scam you. Or, I need you to remain vulnerable because that feeds my feeling of self-worth

BITTER DISCORD is the polar opposite of Harmony. It’s hate - I wish you harm. It’s destroying your ex-partners possessions after a break-up. It’s when I enjoy hurting you and making you despise yourself. It’s when they aren’t like us, they are different, rubbish, dangerous. Or, it’s when I will sacrifice a lot to harm you. Or again, it’s when I am unforgiveable / I can never forgive you. And it’s when revenge is sweet. It's when I make you obey me by compelling you with fear and pain.
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Okay..This is a draft of something that goes a bit into the devil's advocate direction and plays with some other functions (because I think these here are also already dipped alot into N).
Please, see them as additional and for the purpose a little exaggerated. (May include bits of we are the Borg.)

COMPLETE SWEET HARMONY
Let's talk about our feelings and find openly the best solution that is a win-win for everyone - your own aka everyone's needs, limits and boundaries included. Everyone gives only what is within his/her comfort. We build a shared place that is genuine and a both-way street. There is not even a need for sacrifice, and everyone is already enough. We nurture sharing aka a natural unity of giving and getting that involves the best of differences.

INCOMPLETE SWEET HARMONY/SAVOURY SELF-EXPLOITATION
You're focused on the external harmony, excluding yourself, people-please on the cost of your own self and for the price of outer serenity, but over-stretching your boundaries and neglecting your own needs and limits. You find the win-lose, wether you try not to be a burden to anyone or you aren't telling for another reason, but yet you have others experience your loss and lack of self-responsibility in the end. You find yourself in lots of one-sided relationships and you keep sacrificing a lot to make them happy. Push-pull will be a logical necessity to balance out the abundance of giving without getting.

SALTY TRIBAL DEPENDENCY NURTURE/SAVOURY COLLECTIVE-EXPLOITATION
We follow the traditions, and serve over all an outer harmonic space that needs to be tended regularly in rituals. We polish a shared convenient identity. We are all alike and we must sacrifice what doesn't fit in. Everyone is an outer extension of the other, caring for others is caring for yourself. Everyone follows loyaly the old agenda. Our goal is to create outer safety and stability first, and for that we keep each other in check and teach our ways by the book.
 
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Impact Character said:
Okay..This is a draft of something that goes a bit into the devil's advocate direction and plays with some other functions (because I think these here are also already dipped alot into N).
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I think what you are doing here is exploring the idea that each of the 5 aspects of Feeling that I suggested has a shadow. For example there are comments out in the forum at the moment about excessive ‘niceness’ which can be insincere or which just sugar coats issues that need to be brought out and resolved. The dark flavours of Feeling will have their positive shadows - a just conflict under the shadow of Bitter Discord perhaps?
 
It’s weird that this thread has come to life again after quite a long time lying quiet. I’d forgotten about it until a few days ago - then I remembered it and wondered about posting something new in here. @MINFJToothFairy set it going again a couple of days later before I got any further. Something in the in forum waters perhaps :D
 
John K said:
I think what you are doing here is exploring the idea that each of the 5 aspects of Feeling that I suggested has a shadow. For example there are comments out in the forum at the moment about excessive ‘niceness’ which can be insincere or which just sugar coats issues that need to be brought out and resolved. The dark flavours of Feeling will have their positive shadows - a just conflict under the shadow of Bitter Discord perhaps?
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Yes :) Sorry, that wasn't quite precise about what I was trying to do, and thank you for reaching out with a better expression! Very appreciated. ^^

Your post is so great and just so easy to simply nodd to and agree with. Yet, it seemed like it could have another layer. So questioning this and fueling it with other perspectives on Fe seemed to give it more rounded substance and facets. Including also popular issues that are shown but also discussed throughout this forum often, famous stereotypes, or what seems to come out in the interaction of other functions with Fe, and some of the issues that come up from the perspective of other Feelers.

@Deleted member 16771 mentioned the connection between Fi and Fe, and I think he has sort of a point.

Also, I think you are on to another facet there with the positive shadow of Bitter Discord (or maybe more like a negative of a picture?)

The idea of altruism is sometimes a bit cripling.. and I wanted to differentiate especially some nuances in maturity and focus of Fe because that can have a big difference on answering your question on how Fe can be experienced.
I tried to make a draft on differentiating the facets also because I hoped it would make it easier to see potential growth, wider understanding and the importance of mindset.
 
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Impact Character said:
Yes :) Sorry, that wasn't quite precise about what I was trying to do, and thank you for reaching out with a better expression! Very appreciated. ^^

Your post is so great and just so easy to simply nodd to and agree with. Yet, it seemed like it could have another layer. So questioning this and fueling it with other perspectives on Fe seemed to give it more rounded substance and facets. Including also popular issues that are shown but also discussed throughout this forum often, famous stereotypes, or what seems to come out in the interaction of other functions with Fe, and some of the issues that come up from the perspective of other Feelers.

@Deleted member 16771 mentioned the conenction between Fi and Fe, and I think he has sort of a point.

Also, I think you are on to another facet there with the positive shadow of Bitter Discord (or maybe more like a negative of a picture?)

The idea of altruism is sometimes a bit cripling.. and I wanted to differentiate especially some nuances in maturity and focus of Fe because that can have a big difference on answering your question on how Fe can be experienced.
I tried to make a draft on differentiating the facets also because I hoped it would make it easier to see potential growth, wider understanding and the importance of mindset.
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Part of the problem is the semantics and the individuation of the concepts. Feeling as it is, and Feeling as it is experienced are two different things even when we are clear about it being a judging function - it gets even more confused when everything gets tangled up with feeling as an emotion :D.

I think it's useful to contrast Feeling with Thinking to help disentangle some of this. I don't think anyone has much difficulty in understanding Thinking as something that we can choose to do - when we need to work out if we have been given the correct change, or when we park the car for example. Of course it can be involuntary as well, when we go over something obsessively in the middle of the night and can't switch off - but we have no trouble in understanding it's something we can choose to do as well. The revelation for me was the insight that Feeling is the same, and I started to watch myself doing it. Building up a relationship with a salesman selling me a car for example by being warm, friendly and supportive to him, even when I didn't actually feel like it emotionally, because there was an advantage to both of us in doing so. Overriding my irritation with someone and giving them some support because they need it. Challenging someone over something that's wrong, even though my instincts and my nervous energy suggest I should avoid conflict. These are all conscious rather than involuntary Feeling choices - the people who prefer Feeling in MBTI terms will consciously use this kind of judgement out of preference to Thinking. Everyone uses Feeling judgement of course, but it's obvious from the way that they do it that many of them are not in conscious control of it. Just because they use it a lot does not mean they are a Feeling type - it's the degree of control we have over it that determines that.
 
John K said:
Part of the problem is the semantics and the individuation of the concepts. Feeling as it is, and Feeling as it is experienced are two different things even when we are clear about it being a judging function - it gets even more confused when everything gets tangled up with feeling as an emotion :D.

I think it's useful to contrast Feeling with Thinking to help disentangle some of this. I don't think anyone has much difficulty in understanding Thinking as something that we can choose to do - when we need to work out if we have been given the correct change, or when we park the car for example. Of course it can be involuntary as well, when we go over something obsessively in the middle of the night and can't switch off - but we have no trouble in understanding it's something we can choose to do as well. The revelation for me was the insight that Feeling is the same, and I started to watch myself doing it. Building up a relationship with a salesman selling me a car for example by being warm, friendly and supportive to him, even when I didn't actually feel like it emotionally, because there was an advantage to both of us in doing so. Overriding my irritation with someone and giving them some support because they need it. Challenging someone over something that's wrong, even though my instincts and my nervous energy suggest I should avoid conflict. These are all conscious rather than involuntary Feeling choices - the people who prefer Feeling in MBTI terms will consciously use this kind of judgement out of preference to Thinking. Everyone uses Feeling judgement of course, but it's obvious from the way that they do it that many of them are not in conscious control of it. Just because they use it a lot does not mean they are a Feeling type - it's the degree of control we have over it that determines that.
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Yes. I really think your post was already great addressing the idea everything floated around. I didn't mean to challenge it in any way, just picking something up that was dropped on the floor..

John K said:
@Impact Character Sorry - this is a bit tangential to what you said, but it adds dimension to the ideas
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It's okay. That's on me. Yet, the way I wrote it would spark a reaction.
 
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Impact Character said:
Yes. I really think your post was already great addressing the idea everything floated around. I didn't mean to challenge it in any way, just picking something up that was dropped on the floor..
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Oh don't worry about that :) - you just sparked me off with a load more thoughts which is great. The idea that there is more than one sort of opposite to each of the flavours of F for example is very rich in potential. Earlier in the thread it was suggested that Fi could be analysed in a similar sort of way - Feeling as a whole in other words - and that adds yet more structure because I wasn't thinking of Fi when I came up with the original model.

My OP was meant to be an outline attempt to break open what seemed to me to be a conceptual blockage rather than to be definitive and complete. There hasn't been any dissent as far as I can see - just builds that say there's plenty more of the same to shape out, which I'm really pleased with.
 
John K said:
Oh don't worry about that :) - you just sparked me off with a load more thoughts which is great. The idea that there is more than one sort of opposite to each of the flavours of F for example is very rich in potential. Earlier in the thread it was suggested that Fi could be analysed in a similar sort of way - Feeling as a whole in other words - and that adds yet more structure because I wasn't thinking of Fi when I came up with the original model.

My OP was meant to be an outline attempt to break open what seemed to me to be a conceptual blockage rather than to be definitive and complete. There hasn't been any dissent as far as I can see - just builds that say there's plenty more of the same to shape out, which I'm really pleased with.
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Your OP was so wonderfully rounded and whole in itself that it could only be expanded in different ways apart from the orginial.. I mean it. It's clear that you were very thoughtful about it.
I held back with this until now, and only "added" because the thread was reactivated.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
Hi John, great question.

The thing about the cognitive functions as concepts is that they do seem to capture something meaningful, but the problem rests with the dichotomies. I think it's generally misleading to speak of such things as 'Fe' users or 'Fi' users, as if one precludes the other.

The psychological reality seems more that human beings are wired up to be constantly evaluating the difference between their subjective experience and what appears to be objective reality. In terms of the senses, neurologists refer to this subjective-objective interplay as 'reality testing', though there's also a Freudian psychotherapeutic sense to that term, which is not what I'm referring to here.

Jung himself also thought of introversion and extroversion to bear direct comparison to the subject/object dichotomy, but it's worth noting that he did warn against an excess of one or the other... e.g. the Dionysian risk of losing the self in the pursuit of externalities.

This means that I think we ought to treat the cognitive functions as something like 'humours'; with psychological health resting in the balance of its aspects.

Speaking of an 'Fe user', therefore, is almost to speak of a person imbalanced in their Feeling 'reality testing'.

To be clear, I don't think it's proper to speak of Fe and Fi as separate functions. There is only one Feeling function - Fi-Fe - and it works by oscillating and comparing between one one feels internally and what one should be feeling by social standards; between what we observe other people to be feeling, and what we feel ourselves.

Now, I'm not saying that it isn't meaningful to have the cognitive functions arranged in a certain order, and then to suggest that some of them are dysfunctional in one direction or another (either preferring the subjective or preferring the objective), but I am saying that it is in my view wholly misleading to separate the two halves of a whole process like this.

In these terms, an INFJ's cognitive preferences could be expressed like this:

Ni-Ne
Fe-Fi
Ti-Te
Se-Si

This would be to imagine an individual who prefers to intuit first, then feel, then think, then sense, with a subjective, objective, subjective, objective imbalance respectively.

And furthermore, I think it's entirely possible for individuals to change their imbalances (or, heaven forbid, behave in a balanced way) basically depending on the day.

All of us experience an oscillation of imbalance like this, which is why I think it's kind of ridiculous to speak of Fe on its own in this way, unless we're actually talking about individuals who are completely lost in the 'objective'/external feeling space of their community.
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This is very similar to how I've come to visualize cognitive functions. Each person falls somewhere on a spectrum for each. Where the person tends to "prefer" would be represented by a point on the line. Let's take F as an example:

Fi_____________________Fe

Now we can look at where a person lies in preference:

Fi_________________X___Fe

However, this isn't useful on its own. We have to know how this compares with T, N, and S. To draw contrasts and create perspective we can add another dimension:

Si__________xx_________Se
Fi_______________xxxx__Fe
Ti___x_________________Te
Ni______xxx____________Ne

So in the above example, the person is an Fe dominant with a slight preference for Ni. It would work better with circles, representing the strength within the individual. So if N and S were closer, the circle would be the same size. In this case, Fe would be the largest circle, and Ti the smallest.

We could also compare individuals' strength with one another, such as a different color circle representing how far one is from the ideal. One could be best at Fe compared with other functions, yet not as good as other people who also dominate with Fe. This is like being better at basketball over any other skill, but not being good enough to make it into the pros.
 
Impact Character said:
between Fi and Fe, and I think he has sort of a point.
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Thanks :neutral: lol

John K said:
These are all conscious rather than involuntary Feeling choices - the people who prefer Feeling in MBTI terms will consciously use this kind of judgement out of preference to Thinking. Everyone uses Feeling judgement of course, but it's obvious from the way that they do it that many of them are not in conscious control of it. Just because they use it a lot does not mean they are a Feeling type - it's the degree of control we have over it that determines that.
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That's interesting, but I'm sure that Fe is being 'used' - necessarily - in every interaction. Some people might make use of the barest essentials, but it's always 'on' in some respect.

Personally as I've matured, I make better and better use of Fe in these circumstances (like making a purchase), but I'm still more comfortable approaching an interaction through its 'objects'. Buying a coffee is about getting the coffee more than connecting with the barista.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
Thanks :neutral: lol
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Noo, not you too! I'm so sorry. :confounded:

CompletePotableDove-size_restricted.gif


Please, don't take my comments/wording too serious since last night, everyone.
Major confusion funk alert here.

G853.gif
*goes into hiding*
 
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Deleted member 16771 said:
That's interesting, but I'm sure that Fe is being 'used' - necessarily - in every interaction. Some people might make use of the barest essentials, but it's always 'on' in some respect.

Personally as I've matured, I make better and better use of Fe in these circumstances (like making a purchase), but I'm still more comfortable approaching an interaction through its 'objects'. Buying a coffee is about getting the coffee more than connecting with the barista.
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That's how I see it as well. Just to clarify a bit more how I see it - we all use all of the functions, but our control over a couple of them is as good as right handed folks' control over their right hand. Our control over the others is more like that over our left hand. I'm right handed - I can write with my left if I have to, but it takes me a lot of effort and attention, tires me quickly, and isn't very legible. In my teens I tried to become proficient at writing left handed over several months, and I did improve but it never got anywhere near my right hand. More seriously, I was using so much of my attention that I couldn't take much notice of the sense of what I was writing so it was hopeless for note taking in class, etc. Our functions work like this as well, except that we can maybe get rather better at our non-preferred ones than we can with our non-favoured hand, particularly as we get into the second half of life. It may be that these non-preferred functions work better in partnership with a preferred one just like the way a musician can happily use both hands together on a piano, guitar, etc. I certainly use both hands all the time, but there are many things I can do with one and not with the other.

It's very interesting that Jung advised very forcefully that people should not try and develop excessive conscious control of their inferior function. His psychology of the conscious emerged from his more general work on the unconscious, and he developed it in order to customise how he approached his patients more systematically. He found that the way to reach people's unconscious minds was through their inferior function, which of course he needed to determine as a precursor to their treatment, hence his typology. If we succeed in establishing too much conscious control over our inferior function, we split ourselves off from our unconscious minds which then start throwing all sorts of strange mental health problems our way and these will cause neurotic attacks. I don't offer any evaluation of these ideas except to say that MBTI is rooted in them.
 
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Impact Character said:
Noo, not you too! I'm so sorry. :confounded:

CompletePotableDove-size_restricted.gif


Please, don't take my comments/wording too serious since last night, everyone.
Major confusion funk alert here.

G853.gif
*goes into hiding*
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Noooo, IC! I was joking :flushed:

I should tell you that I never get upset here; I don't get 'offended' or anything - I was 'playing the part' for the sake of the joke; a kind of positive sarcasm.

On the forum, I've only ever been made angry by a guy called wiredandwound when he started to call me a little boy iirc* - I've never been hurt.
:<3white:


*Here, in fact:
Deleted member 16771 said:
You cheeky little fuck.

I'm going to have to put you on ignore before people start calling me Kyle. For the sake of my drywall, goodbye.
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I read John's breakdown a while ago and it took me a while to process. Luckily this thread came back to life and I wanted to take this time to chime in.

SWEET HARMONY I spend a lot of time living here. I ask every barista how their day is, make eye contact and get to know their names. I like to acknowledge the fellow human beings that share our world and our time together. I'm looking for a way to compliment or ask sincere questions. I take the time to listen and care. I would say people that do not know me well get to see this side of me the most. This is my natural state for work and acquaintances. *John Mulaney has a joke about running for the mayor of nothing and it seems to be accurate.*

SALTY NURTURE This comes out for my close friends and loved ones. This is me as a coach, boss, mentor or dad. I'm always pushing and encouraging people to hit the goals they want for themselves that are hard.

SAVOURY EXPLOITATION This is mainly used at work. Its the understanding of the human politics and what is required to get real action done. I too have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet. I will say that my approach is almost always win-win even in this regard. You scratch my back I'll scratch yours or how can I make my goal our goal.

SOUR SPITE I have a hard time with this one. I'm likely filtering it out. I probably entered this if I feel marginalized or hurt. This is me actively not doing what I'm asked to do when I do not agree with it. This is passive aggressive comedy. This was me in my teens.

BITTER DISCORD This is pure dark side. I'll channel my hate and setup something painful and designed specifically for you. I'll hurt that special place you think no one knows about. Where you wear your armor. This is me at my most evil. I haven't spent much time here but when I have it's just regret afterwards. I don't like this part of me.
 
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Daustus said:
I read John's breakdown a while ago and it took me a while to process. Luckily this thread came back to life and I wanted to take this time to chime in.
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What you said sounds so familiar :).

These days I notice my own ‘Spite’ most when I’m driving lol. In my younger days I’d do the passive aggressive thing by deliberately making a bit of a mess of an obligation rather than refusing it outright :(.
 
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