How do you use extraverted feeling? How do you experience it?

[ThomasJ79]

That's how I see it as well. Just to clarify a bit more how I see it - we all use all of the functions, but our control over a couple of them is as good as right handed folks' control over their right hand. Our control over the others is more like that over our left hand. I'm right handed - I can write with my left if I have to, but it takes me a lot of effort and attention, tires me quickly, and isn't very legible. In my teens I tried to become proficient at writing left handed over several months, and I did improve but it never got anywhere near my right hand. More seriously, I was using so much of my attention that I couldn't take much notice of the sense of what I was writing so it was hopeless for note taking in class, etc. Our functions work like this as well, except that we can maybe get rather better at our non-preferred ones than we can with our non-favoured hand, particularly as we get into the second half of life. It may be that these non-preferred functions work better in partnership with a preferred one just like the way a musician can happily use both hands together on a piano, guitar, etc. I certainly use both hands all the time, but there are many things I can do with one and not with the other.

Spoiler: As an aside

It's very interesting that Jung advised very forcefully that people should not try and develop excessive conscious control of their inferior function. His psychology of the conscious emerged from his more general work on the unconscious, and he developed it in order to customise how he approached his patients more systematically. He found that the way to reach people's unconscious minds was through their inferior function, which of course he needed to determine as a precursor to their treatment, hence his typology. If we succeed in establishing too much conscious control over our inferior function, we split ourselves off from our unconscious minds which then start throwing all sorts of strange mental health problems our way and these will cause neurotic attacks. I don't offer any evaluation of these ideas except to say that MBTI is rooted in them.

While the analogy of right and left handedness works to some degree in regard to cognitive preferences, there are limits. In hand preferences one is developing the same skill, just with different arms. There are at least two different ways to do the same kinds of things. To transfer this to cognitive functions would be difficult, but maybe it would work if we look at them as being numerous different cognitive arms to develop consciousness. The end goal is the same, just different pathways that lead to individual types of consciousness, which we can compare and contrast with other individuals. We can group these based on similarities and call them Types.

 

[ThomasJ79]

I am not a fan of using things such as cognitive functions to describe consciousness. It seems too deterministic. I look at a person's dominant "function" as being the description of a whole host of traits, cognitions, behaviors, and overal tendencies. There isn't a singular "function" that does all of these things. Human brains may be analogous to computers, but certainly aren't computers or computer software programs. Who is operating the computer? Who or what is doing the "preferring". Is there just another cognitive function behind them all?

We each just have a certain type of brain that does things we cannot really explain, imo. This leads to certain cognitive styles/strengths, and types of conscious experiences. Many of which nearly everyone has in common as it's just part of having a human brain. We end up as a Type as we make choices throughout our lives, not because of an innate function, but because of our genetic brain architecture, which allow us to do certain things well, which can be modified(strengthened or weakened) through use, or lack thereof. This leads to a certain style of consciousness. One could say as a person's consciousness develops and evolves, it begins to take shape into styles like Types.

I feel like a heretic in the MBTI community.
*waiting for excommunication

 

[Impact Character]

*waiting for excommunication

Spoiler: ok

..not in a context where perspective switching is homey, my friend.

 

[Skarekrow]

I feel like a heretic in the MBTI community.
*waiting for excommunication

jk​

I think what you say makes sense.
The folks who are experts still don't fully know how the brain, emotions, ideas, memories, thoughts, etc. arise for the most part.
They seem to be some kind of quantum meat computers on a purely physical level - but imho it extends far beyond just physicality as we know it and into the realm of energy fields and other states of energy or information that could effect "mind".
For example the trillions and trillions of various particles that shoot through our bodies at any given few moments - I find it feasible they could pass on or be carriers of other forms of information that we cannot quite detect or understand fully yet.
Neutrinos pass just as easily through lead as they do the air...and have no trouble passing through us...they go right in-between all our own particles, without hitting them.
They travel at near light speed...at that scale and speed one can imagine that time needed to interact or pass information onto our own particles or mind would seem to be there - everything from the neutrino's point of view at that speed would allow it lots of time as it whizzed through us.
This idea is part of why I don't completely write off things like astrology - because there could be a scenario perhaps where at certain times of the year, while we are in certain positions, perhaps we get different variations in the messages being carried or types of messages and that can effect us while we develop maybe?

There isn't a singular "function" that does all of these things. Human brains may be analogous to computers, but certainly aren't computers or computer software programs. Who is operating the computer? Who or what is doing the "preferring". Is there just another cognitive function behind them all?

Indeed!?
Where is the "ghost" in the computer.
The hard problem of consciousness (google: hard problem of consciousness and David Chalmers).
I think that Indra's Net makes a lot of sense in the way we actually exist in this reality and universe - that we are reflections of ourselves as well as the reflections of everyone around us as we co-create this reality.
Of course...this is just 5am - I had to get up from the pain and have nothing else to do speculation...I swear I'm not stoned...yet.

Take care!!

 

[David54]

It is simply how I am, how I experience this life. There is no conscience awareness of it, it just is.

 

[John K]

While the analogy of right and left handedness works to some degree in regard to cognitive preferences, there are limits. In hand preferences one is developing the same skill, just with different arms. There are at least two different ways to do the same kinds of things. To transfer this to cognitive functions would be difficult, but maybe it would work if we look at them as being numerous different cognitive arms to develop consciousness. The end goal is the same, just different pathways that lead to individual types of consciousness, which we can compare and contrast with other individuals. We can group these based on similarities and call them Types.

Of course - I'm only using handedness as an illustration of the awkwardness of using the non-preferred hand as analogous to the awkwardness of using our non-preferred functions. No matter how hard we try, most of us will never have as much control over one hand as the other. They aren't complete equivalents of each other by the way - it's easier to do mirror writing with our non-preferred hands than ordinary writing for example.

I am not a fan of using things such as cognitive functions to describe consciousness. It seems too deterministic. I look at a person's dominant "function" as being the description of a whole host of traits, cognitions, behaviors, and overal tendencies. There isn't a singular "function" that does all of these things. Human brains may be analogous to computers, but certainly aren't computers or computer software programs. Who is operating the computer? Who or what is doing the "preferring". Is there just another cognitive function behind them all?

We each just have a certain type of brain that does things we cannot really explain, imo. This leads to certain cognitive styles/strengths, and types of conscious experiences. Many of which nearly everyone has in common as it's just part of having a human brain. We end up as a Type as we make choices throughout our lives, not because of an innate function, but because of our genetic brain architecture, which allow us to do certain things well, which can be modified(strengthened or weakened) through use, or lack thereof. This leads to a certain style of consciousness. One could say as a person's consciousness develops and evolves, it begins to take shape into styles like Types.

I feel like a heretic in the MBTI community.
*waiting for excommunication

Hahaha! Off to the stake ....

I'm pretty much in agreement with what you are saying, personally, but think that the typologies hold some truth. The problem comes when the model is confused with the underlying reality rather than just being a limited view of it. The two typologies I'm familiar with are MBTI and the Enneagram - they both seem to give a lot of insight into personality, but with quite different angles on it. That doesn't make them both incorrect - just limited in their scope. There are many different ways in which MBTI is expressed and pursued as well, which muddies the waters. My own perspective is that it was developed as an adjunct to CG Jung's psychology of the unconscious and I can't see how it can be properly applied without some grounding in that more comprehensive set of concepts. For example, the inferior function is very important in Jungian psychology as a gateway to the unconscious.

In my own experience, there is empirical evidence to show that MBTI is describing something real. I first encountered it on a management training course as one of the topics they covered. There were 24 of us on the course, and once we'd been typed they gave us some exercises to do in teams they put together based on our type. It was absolutely hilarious how accurately it predicted the behaviour of P teams v J teams to give one example. You only have to look at the forum here, too, to see how selection on type brings similar people together. I've maybe never met as many INFJs in my life before as we have here - and I've never met so many people in one place before who seem to approach the world in a similar same way I do. That doesn't mean we aren't all very different as well, but the similarities are remarkable.

This is something I wrote a while back that adds a bit more:

Ever since I first came across mbti, I've felt that it is unwise to abstract and use it completely independently of Jung's overall psychological theory. In particular, the way type dynamics should evolve over our lifetimes needs an understanding of the process of individuation, and this isn't possible without having some knowledge of jung's theory of the unconscious - which is a much larger set of theory than his psychology of the conscious.

I have not found it possible to get at my type using the questionnaires - I agree with the idea that the way we answer the questionnaires is determined to a great extent by our environment, circumstances, and an almost unavoidable tendency to dishonesty in some sections. I found the best way was to read the type descriptions in the best literature, observe people and see how they match the descriptions, then try and apply the learning to myself. I also found that recognising which was my inferior helped a lot. I think the questionnaires may set people on the road to discovery, but it's probably best to assume the first assessment is tentative and use it as an entry point not an exit point for the typing process. I think if I went into it professionally in another existence, I'd probably confirm type for people by looking at shadow function and inferior behaviours because these are likely to be not under full conscious control.

There's an awful lot of nonsense out there - Ni and Fe are not at all well described for example. At the same time the infj type seems to be fashionable on many mbti web sites, and there's a lot of material out there about it - probably because true infjs are more likely to be turned on by this sort of thing and there are many of them who write about it and make videos. Like happens with a lot of trending things on the Internet, some people are wanting to identify with it because of this regardless of whether it really suits them.

For some of us, the type we have accepted becomes part of our identity and we will resist any suggestion that it's wrong, unless it comes from within. I'm a bit like that, and I can sway the questionnaires to agree with me without being fully aware I'm doing it at the time - they are useless for people who are familiar with the mbti model and are experienced with the sort of questions presented, imho.

I think maybe too much is expected of mbti, which was never intended to be a precision tool as far as I can see - Jung seemed to treat each patient as highly individual and used his typology just to get some initial orientation. After all, it only has 16 different types and I think we should compare it with a simple compass rose:

A 16 point compass is not meant to be a precision instrument - it will happily give you a broad direction, but it ain't a professional gps system with a global set of map grid references accurate to a centimetre. A mistake I think gets made over and again is to confuse the model with the underlying reality. You get this a lot in hard science too, with people thinking that quantum mechanics is reality rather than an incomplete model of it. Mbti breaks down easily if we push it too hard, but it seems to me that if we keep within its scope of validity it works OK as a heuristic.

 

[Serval]

How do you understand and use extraverted feeling? What is it like to be on the receiving end of Fe?

I had a lot of problems understanding the functions when I was trying to establish my type. I think one of the things that confused me was the way Fe is equated with ‘Harmony’ in many of the sources. While catchwords like this are powerful hooks that give a vivid mental image of something abstract, they can also replace the fundamental meaning with a truncated and sanitised version of it.

I’m certainly happy that Harmony is an aspect of Fe, but surely it’s not all of it? I’d like to move away from the idea that Fe is only a good, nice function, and accept that it can be used for good or ill judgements, just like extraverted thinking. It’s hard to go against such a powerful meme though - so I’ve tried to crack it open by extending the catchword approach to 5 suggested types of Fe behaviour and mapping them onto the 5 different sorts of taste: Sweet, Salt, Savoury, Sour and Bitter. Of course, just as food can have a blend of these tastes, it seems to me that Fe can be a blend too - sweet and sour, salty savoury, etc.

Let me know what you think ……

View attachment 48840


SWEET HARMONY is the flavour we are all familiar with: It’s I love you, you are loveable. It’s when I want you to feel good. And it’s when you make me feel good. It's ... that was a great thing you did. It’s when I forgive you. It’s when you don’t like me, but you still want good things for me. It's when I can’t thank you enough, or when I will sacrifice a lot to make you happy. It’s let’s find a way to sort this out. It’s well done! ... It’s how awful! I’m here for you .... or how pleased I am that things have worked out so well for you.

SALTY NURTURE is the Fe that cares for people’s development: education, social skills, safety, health, spiritual growth. It’s the parent that removes a dangerous object from a child, or teaches them to share. It's the teacher who challenges misbehaviour, poor attitude. It’s a coach that pushes an athlete beyond the pain barrier in training, the manager that deliberately places a promising member of staff outside their comfort zone so they will develop. It’s the friend who challenges us when we are doing something wrong.

SAVOURY EXPLOITATION covers a range of possibilities that run from gaining advantage through to taking advantage for an ulterior purpose. It’s the advert that says ‘buy me and you will be happy – everyone else is doing it’. It’s the politician or clergyman glad-handing, their eyes already shifting over your shoulder to the next person while their smile is still pointed at you. It’s when you mother insists you can’t have a quiet wedding because the family wants a big one. It’s when you are buying a car and you make friends with the salesman, so you and he are all nice guys and he gives you a bigger discount. It’s please fix this problem - I’m pretty upset and annoyed about it.

SOUR SPITE is the Fe that tailgates you because you are in my way and I want you to go faster or get out of my way. It’s when you boost your self esteem by making me feel inadequate. It’s when I don’t like you and want you to know it because that gives me a kick. It’s when I want to control you for your own good - I love you, why don’t you do what I want. Or trust me - I want to scam you. Or, I need you to remain vulnerable because that feeds my feeling of self-worth

BITTER DISCORD is the polar opposite of Harmony. It’s hate - I wish you harm. It’s destroying your ex-partners possessions after a break-up. It’s when I enjoy hurting you and making you despise yourself. It’s when they aren’t like us, they are different, rubbish, dangerous. Or, it’s when I will sacrifice a lot to harm you. Or again, it’s when I am unforgiveable / I can never forgive you. And it’s when revenge is sweet. It's when I make you obey me by compelling you with fear and pain.

I'd say that I experience all of them, but i don't actually remember any example.
Speaking about the last way of expressing Fe, i almost always translate the hate towards others to me.
I also experience other kinds of emotions like envy, i envy others a lot, mostly because i think i could be able to do whatever others do, therefore i realize i can only do what i can and i feel like i was a monster for being so envious. (maybe i am off topic, i am sory if i am)
Speaking about the "salty nature" and the "sour spite" i do that a lot of times, with everyone, even with my parents or with "strangers" older than me, i try to correct them, to make them nicer people. Although this behaviour usually bothers others and i feel bothered by it to.

 

[John K]

I'd say that I experience all of them, but i don't actually remember any example.
Speaking about the last way of expressing Fe, i almost always translate the hate towards others to me.
I also experience other kinds of emotions like envy, i envy others a lot, mostly because i think i could be able to do whatever others do, therefore i realize i can only do what i can and i feel like i was a monster for being so envious. (maybe i am off topic, i am sory if i am)
Speaking about the "salty nature" and the "sour spite" i do that a lot of times, with everyone, even with my parents or with "strangers" older than me, i try to correct them, to make them nicer people. Although this behaviour usually bothers others and i feel bothered by it to.

Hey Serval - welcome to the Forum. A little late I know, but well met!!

It's very important to understand the difference between emotion and the Feeling functions. Emotion is mostly involuntary and something that happens to us, but Fe is something people use to make decisions. For those of us with primary or secondary Fe, it is in pretty good conscious control and we can over-ride our emotions to use it. There is a good possible example embedded in what you said - take the example of an elderly relative coming to you yet again to order something on the Internet. You have showed them over and again but they don't get it, and they have started relying on you more and more to do what they should really be able to do themselves. Your emotions are a mixture of really liking to help, love for them, frustration, impatience, irritation - even a touch of anger. You are also aware that they will give your mum a lot of grief if you don't help because elderly folks can moan a lot lol. So you do help, but in a reluctant, passive-aggressive, resentful sort of way, and no-one ends up feeling OK. A good Fe user will not let this happen, but will deliberately choose from a combination of Harmony, Nuture and Savouriness, over-riding their feelings of irritation and anger. This could be some more serious coaching where they place the order and you sit alongside rather than doing it for them, or perhaps your relative lives with someone more able to learn, or maybe you can arrange for them to go to classes for older internet users, or you could share it out with other family members. You could also refuse - this would be good Fe too if done properly, because INFJs allow too many things across their inner boundaries and if it becomes habitual we can lose our sense of identity. The way you refuse matters - it would need to be gentle and assertive.

The important thing is that Fe for an INFJ is not an impulsive reaction to our emotions, but a deliberate channeling of them to make choices and decisions in the world about us.

And yes, a consequence of this is that the Dark Side of the Feeling function is very dark - we all use it that way occasionally of course, but that is when we are in the grip of intense feelings that override our better nature, and most of us regret such events intensely. There are people who deliberately choose to use Spite and Discord to relate to the world and bend it to their will - these are not nice folks at all. The most likely people we come across like this are the bullies that plague many of us at some time of our lives.

I think Fe is a very important function for INFJs. We feel lost in the world because our primary Introverted Intuition is the polar opposite of the majority types out in the world - we live in their shadow side, and there are many more of them than of us. Their natural way of orienting to life is in our own shadow and it's exhausting for us to be in their company for any length of time when they are just doing what comes naturally for them. The temptation for us is to curl up within an inner dialogue between our intuition and our inner thinking process - and yes I too have 'solved' the whole world's problems over and again that way . It's easy to do this in our heads, but it tends to float away into Neverland because it has no grounding. Fe is the way we ground ourselves and the way to find our identity, who we are and what we are. It projects us out of ourselves and engages with other people, and it allows us to drag all those marvellous inner thoughts out into the open air - and it is an amazing mirror that allows us to see who we are reflected in the faces of other people.

Now I'm not talking about solving the big problems of life, the universe and everything here (though maybe a bit of that one day ) - I'm talking mainly about consciously using Fe to relate to others on a day to day basis, and to open up ourselves to them in a controlled way while keeping our inner boundaries intact. It's an ideal function to just explore and try out - we learn this sort of thing best by trial and error 'in the field', the way we learn to walk and talk as a child.

 

[dragulagu]

@John K Nice description, though it's a bit difficult to understand it completely (for me). Seems a lot of cognitive processes are going with Fe users when feeling a multitude of emotions subconciously.

Over-riding them seems impossible to me (either experience them, or surpressing them-> which isn't really healthy; can't imagine over-riding them, that's some next level emotional control to me)...though you're not the first saying that (have had other INFJ/ENFJ saying the same to me).

Could it perhaps be choosing a specific emotion out of a mix of emotions that you are feeling at that time on which to act on (as in behaviour based on emotion)? Or am I wrong here? Fe remains a bit enigmatic to me.

 

[John K]

@John K Nice description, though it's a bit difficult to understand it completely (for me). Seems a lot of cognitive processes are going with Fe users when feeling a multitude of emotions subconciously.

Over-riding them seems impossible to me (either experience them, or surpressing them-> which isn't really healthy; can't imagine over-riding them, that's some next level emotional control to me)...though you're not the first saying that (have had other INFJ/ENFJ saying the same to me).

Could it perhaps be choosing a specific emotion out of a mix of emotions that you are feeling at that time on which to act on (as in behaviour based on emotion)? Or am I wrong here? Fe remains a bit enigmatic to me.

Well in a way it's analagous to thinking - you can select between facts, but the facts themselves are non-negotiable normally. You can then manipulate the facts you chose in order to draw out conclusions - so you can use facts creatively to present different logical aspects of a case from different angles, each of which may lead to a different outcome in real life situations that very often have no single correct logical answer.

In the same way, a teacher may feel low and depressed when he gets into school, and a bit pissed off because he's starting with a cold and had a big row with his daughter the previous evening. But he's a good professional and generates an enthusiam for his subject and care for his students that means he still teaches well and is appreciated by most of his classes. During the morning, one of his favourite pupils turns in an uncharacteristically sloppy, bad piece of work for the second time in a row. His first instinct is to let it pass, because he likes the boy and thinks he is doing well overall. However on reflection he has a gut feeling that the lad may be letting things drift, and in any case he also realises that he needs to be consistent and fair across the class, so he gives the boy extra work as a punishment and threatens detention if the problem continues.

I don't get on well with care salesmen as a breed because they tend to be of a type that clashes with my own, but I find I can usually get on good terms with them in short bursts, share a joke, chat about families - they are often car enthusiasts so can chat for hours about stuff like that. It pays off, because building a relationship gets you discounts, cuts red tape, gets you through their telephone system faster - and often leads to a win-win sale. I don't go looking for that kind of company unless I'm buying a car though - I don't enjoy this process very much, but can over-ride that in order to achieve the outcome I desire.

If I'm driving somewhere in a hurry and get stuck behind a slow vehicle on a country road, I can often get them to speed up or pull over by slowly and safely creeping up on them. Many people automatically drive a little faster when someone slowly moves up behind them like that. This is not something I recommend because it can easily become dangerous tailgating, with tempers lost - I'm giving it as an everyday example of what I call Sour Fe, and I can use it whatever my emotional background is at the time.

In all of these examples, you can see that T and F are actually working together. E.g. Logic and experience says that building a relationship with a car salesman gets you both a better deal on the whole - logic also puts a brake on it because if you get too pally you may not be willing to walk away if there is no good deal. It's the F that builds the relationship though. I suspect that many processes that are primarily T centred also carry a lot of F with them. The joy of a successful chess combination for example encourages a good player to actively look for them, though the manifestation on the board is pure logic.

I don't know if these help - let me know if I'm missing the target

 

[dragulagu]

Well in a way it's analagous to thinking - you can select between facts, but the facts themselves are non-negotiable normally. You can then manipulate the facts you chose in order to draw out conclusions - so you can use facts creatively to present different logical aspects of a case from different angles, each of which may lead to a different outcome in real life situations that very often have no single correct logical answer.

In the same way, a teacher may feel low and depressed when he gets into school, and a bit pissed off because he's starting with a cold and had a big row with his daughter the previous evening. But he's a good professional and generates an enthusiam for his subject and care for his students that means he still teaches well and is appreciated by most of his classes. During the morning, one of his favourite pupils turns in an uncharacteristically sloppy, bad piece of work for the second time in a row. His first instinct is to let it pass, because he likes the boy and thinks he is doing well overall. However on reflection he has a gut feeling that the lad may be letting things drift, and in any case he also realises that he needs to be consistent and fair across the class, so he gives the boy extra work as a punishment and threatens detention if the problem continues.

I don't get on well with care salesmen as a breed because they tend to be of a type that clashes with my own, but I find I can usually get on good terms with them in short bursts, share a joke, chat about families - they are often car enthusiasts so can chat for hours about stuff like that. It pays off, because building a relationship gets you discounts, cuts red tape, gets you through their telephone system faster - and often leads to a win-win sale. I don't go looking for that kind of company unless I'm buying a car though - I don't enjoy this process very much, but can over-ride that in order to achieve the outcome I desire.

If I'm driving somewhere in a hurry and get stuck behind a slow vehicle on a country road, I can often get them to speed up or pull over by slowly and safely creeping up on them. Many people automatically drive a little faster when someone slowly moves up behind them like that. This is not something I recommend because it can easily become dangerous tailgating, with tempers lost - I'm giving it as an everyday example of what I call Sour Fe, and I can use it whatever my emotional background is at the time.

In all of these examples, you can see that T and F are actually working together. E.g. Logic and experience says that building a relationship with a car salesman gets you both a better deal on the whole - logic also puts a brake on it because if you get too pally you may not be willing to walk away if there is no good deal. It's the F that builds the relationship though. I suspect that many processes that are primarily T centred also carry a lot of F with them. The joy of a successful chess combination for example encourages a good player to actively look for them, though the manifestation on the board is pure logic.

I don't know if these help - let me know if I'm missing the target

Thanks @John K ! It clarifies a lot and it’s interesting because I see similarities with how Te works. They both seem to function as an external executive process but draw from a different pool internally to perform these tasks.

I’m going to give a take on your examples in the way Te and Fi work together (a lot of nuances there, bear with me).

Example 1

A teacher may feel low and depressed when he gets into school, and a bit pissed off because he's starting with a cold and had a big row with his daughter the previous evening. But he's a good professional and tries to generate an enthusiasm by focusing on his subject and care for his students that means he still teaches well and is appreciated by most of his classes.

During the morning, one of his favourite pupils turns in an uncharacteristically sloppy, bad piece of work for the second time in a row. His first instinct is to focus more on this boy during the course, because he likes the boy and thinks he is doing well overall. However on reflection he has a gut feeling that the lad may be letting things drift because of an external factor, but he also realises that he needs to be consistent and fair across the class, so he asks the boy to stay after class to tell him his work is noticeably getting more sloppy and ask if there is something else.

• It’s a different approach from how Fe/Ti and Te/Fi works, what I often see is that Fe is described as empathic (Student to Student(?)), Fi is described as Sympathic (Teacher to Student).
• Fe tries to understand the situation as-is (we are all students and we are in a class to study) and decides to
• In an immediate first reaction I see the punishment of the boy here as unfair (Fi), however in the long run this decision helps the student by steering the way that student is approaching the situation (Fe). He should not be sloppy with his studies as they are important to them and should focus that. If the teacher would ignore his sloppiness that student might get focused by the others in the class as the class favourite, worsening the situation for him. He might also get sympathy from the other students which strengthens the bond.
• In another way Fi takes it more to an interpersonal level, by taking the student apart after class and telling the student that he’s getting noticed and to ask what might be wrong shows a sympathetic approach to understanding what’s driving the student to do less overall? Does he perhaps have problems with that specific course material? Is there something going on within the class or at home?

Example 2

I don't get on well with car salesmen as a breed because they tend to be of a type that clashes with my own as they are a lot driven by a selfish competitive nature to win (at any cost), but I find I can usually get on good terms with them in short bursts, share a joke, chat about families - they are often car enthusiasts so can chat for hours about stuff like that.

It pays off, because building a basic relationship gets you discounts, cuts red tape, gets you through their telephone system faster - and often leads to a win-win sale. I don't go looking for that kind of company unless I'm buying a car though - I don't enjoy this process very much, but can over-ride that in order to achieve the outcome I desire.

At the end of the day though, he is a salesman and I’m a customer.

• There is a lot of overlapping here in my opinion in how Fe and Te work. Both work utilitarian in this case. Neither have the immediate motivation to chat with the car salesperson but know the advantage of having a relationship with the salesperson. Though I think my Te sees it more as an opportunity to learn about the salesman approach and cars in general (cars are nice pieces of technology).
• This is also pretty much the utilitarian part of small-talk, to approach the person from an inter-human perspective and to gauge what kind of a person this is. Personally I hate doing this kind of small-talk.
• In both cases, the salesman is aware of this as well (as they are good at this stuff, else they wouldn’t do this job), so no harm.

Example 3

If I'm driving somewhere in a hurry and get stuck behind a slow vehicle on a country road, I can often get them to speed up or pull over by slowly and safely creeping up on them. Many people automatically drive a little faster when someone slowly moves up behind them like that. This is not something I recommend because it can easily become dangerous tailgating, with tempers lost - I'm giving it as an everyday example of what I call Sour Fi.

• The main difference here is that Fe can pick up the sour emotion and use it to their advantage, Fi already has that emotion available due to the time-factor in this situation (eg. already agitated because in a hurry, even more agitated when the slow vehicle is blocking everyone behind).

In all of these examples, you can see that T and F are actually working together. E.g. Logic and experience says that building a relationship with a car salesman gets you both a better deal on the whole - logic also puts a brake on it because if you get too pally you may not be willing to walk away if there is no good deal. It's the F that builds the relationship though. I suspect that many processes that are primarily T centred also carry a lot of F with them. The joy of a successful chess combination for example encourages a good player to actively look for them, though the manifestation on the board is pure logic.

100%

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I’m doing some research/reading in regards to cultural approaches between different societies, a lot of the cognitive preferences are based on a mixture of temperament (nature) and personality (nurture), these come from cultural traits given by the parents and from within the society that person grows up in.

The Fe approach (maintaining focus on relationships / indirect communication) can be found more within Asian and certain Western European cultures (Belgium and Germany for example).
The Fi approach (maintaining focus on the individual self / direct communication) is more found in the US, Eastern Europe and within other parts of Europe (like the Dutch).

Still a bit vague but there seems to be some connections.

 

[David54]

I was in a training session some years ago that divided the participants by basic MBTI types. We were given a scenario: guests are coming to your home and you are serving peanut butter sandwiches. In your type clusters, prepare for your guests to arrive. .
It was very insightful to hear the reports from the different groups. . for ours, there was planning what breads to buy, what kind of peanut butter, and other nut butters. Jam, jellies, cream cheese incase someone didn't like peanut butter, preparing plates of sandwiches of various kinds etc. .
other group:white bread, and knife in the jar
it was fascinating

 

[John K]

I was in a training session some years ago that divided the participants by basic MBTI types. We were given a scenario: guests are coming to your home and you are serving peanut butter sandwiches. In your type clusters, prepare for your guests to arrive. .
It was very insightful to hear the reports from the different groups. . for ours, there was planning what breads to buy, what kind of peanut butter, and other nut butters. Jam, jellies, cream cheese incase someone didn't like peanut butter, preparing plates of sandwiches of various kinds etc. .
other group:white bread, and knife in the jar
it was fascinating

Lol

My intro to MBTI brought a similar experience. I was on a management course over 20 years ago with the company that I worked for, and they covered it along with lots of other topics. They typed us then split up the 22 participants into groups based on type, with a business brief to process, and the outcome was just like you wopuld expect. That P v J split was obvious. What made it very convincing is that most of us weren't familiar with it, so there was little risk that we were bending to an assumed type. I think this more than anything else since has convinced me that there is something substantial behind it. I was much more familiar with Jung's psychology of the unconscious at that time, and I remember feeling that abstacting his work on the conscious away from its roots was to do it a disservice. I don't feel so strongly about that these days, but still think that the wider knowledge is very important because it is tied up with the inferior function and how we orient to it - for example Jung warns that consciously over-developing our inferior can be harmful because that will cut off key ways for our unconscious mind to interact with our ego.

 

[John K]

Thanks @John K ! It clarifies a lot and it’s interesting because I see similarities with how Te works. They both seem to function as an external executive process but draw from a different pool internally to perform these tasks.

I’m going to give a take on your examples in the way Te and Fi work together (a lot of nuances there, bear with me).

Example 1

A teacher may feel low and depressed when he gets into school, and a bit pissed off because he's starting with a cold and had a big row with his daughter the previous evening. But he's a good professional and tries to generate an enthusiasm by focusing on his subject and care for his students that means he still teaches well and is appreciated by most of his classes.

During the morning, one of his favourite pupils turns in an uncharacteristically sloppy, bad piece of work for the second time in a row. His first instinct is to focus more on this boy during the course, because he likes the boy and thinks he is doing well overall. However on reflection he has a gut feeling that the lad may be letting things drift because of an external factor, but he also realises that he needs to be consistent and fair across the class, so he asks the boy to stay after class to tell him his work is noticeably getting more sloppy and ask if there is something else.

• It’s a different approach from how Fe/Ti and Te/Fi works, what I often see is that Fe is described as empathic (Student to Student(?)), Fi is described as Sympathic (Teacher to Student).
• Fe tries to understand the situation as-is (we are all students and we are in a class to study) and decides to
• In an immediate first reaction I see the punishment of the boy here as unfair (Fi), however in the long run this decision helps the student by steering the way that student is approaching the situation (Fe). He should not be sloppy with his studies as they are important to them and should focus that. If the teacher would ignore his sloppiness that student might get focused by the others in the class as the class favourite, worsening the situation for him. He might also get sympathy from the other students which strengthens the bond.
• In another way Fi takes it more to an interpersonal level, by taking the student apart after class and telling the student that he’s getting noticed and to ask what might be wrong shows a sympathetic approach to understanding what’s driving the student to do less overall? Does he perhaps have problems with that specific course material? Is there something going on within the class or at home?

Example 2

I don't get on well with car salesmen as a breed because they tend to be of a type that clashes with my own as they are a lot driven by a selfish competitive nature to win (at any cost), but I find I can usually get on good terms with them in short bursts, share a joke, chat about families - they are often car enthusiasts so can chat for hours about stuff like that.

It pays off, because building a basic relationship gets you discounts, cuts red tape, gets you through their telephone system faster - and often leads to a win-win sale. I don't go looking for that kind of company unless I'm buying a car though - I don't enjoy this process very much, but can over-ride that in order to achieve the outcome I desire.

At the end of the day though, he is a salesman and I’m a customer.

• There is a lot of overlapping here in my opinion in how Fe and Te work. Both work utilitarian in this case. Neither have the immediate motivation to chat with the car salesperson but know the advantage of having a relationship with the salesperson. Though I think my Te sees it more as an opportunity to learn about the salesman approach and cars in general (cars are nice pieces of technology).
• This is also pretty much the utilitarian part of small-talk, to approach the person from an inter-human perspective and to gauge what kind of a person this is. Personally I hate doing this kind of small-talk.
• In both cases, the salesman is aware of this as well (as they are good at this stuff, else they wouldn’t do this job), so no harm.

Example 3

If I'm driving somewhere in a hurry and get stuck behind a slow vehicle on a country road, I can often get them to speed up or pull over by slowly and safely creeping up on them. Many people automatically drive a little faster when someone slowly moves up behind them like that. This is not something I recommend because it can easily become dangerous tailgating, with tempers lost - I'm giving it as an everyday example of what I call Sour Fi.

• The main difference here is that Fe can pick up the sour emotion and use it to their advantage, Fi already has that emotion available due to the time-factor in this situation (eg. already agitated because in a hurry, even more agitated when the slow vehicle is blocking everyone behind).

100%

—

I’m doing some research/reading in regards to cultural approaches between different societies, a lot of the cognitive preferences are based on a mixture of temperament (nature) and personality (nurture), these come from cultural traits given by the parents and from within the society that person grows up in.

The Fe approach (maintaining focus on relationships / indirect communication) can be found more within Asian and certain Western European cultures (Belgium and Germany for example).
The Fi approach (maintaining focus on the individual self / direct communication) is more found in the US, Eastern Europe and within other parts of Europe (like the Dutch).

Still a bit vague but there seems to be some connections.

That's a very interesting build on what I was exploring and makes a lot of sense to me. It's fascinating to contrast Fi led interactions with their importance given to values, against Fe led interactions where the emphasis is placed on the desired social effect. My experience is that this is a bias rather than black and white polarisation, with a lot of cross talk between the two - it's more a matter of which an individual goes to first habitually rather than whether they go there at all. I'm very much aware of that as a Roman Catholic, with all the pre-fabricated values that comes with the faith. I tend not to lead from the front with those sort of values, but they are always there as a kind of safety net, and I think long and hard about setting the sensible ones aside.

My wife bought me a fascinating book for Christmas called Descartes' Error by a neuroscientist called Antonio Damasio that essentially says it's impossible to function effectively without a combination of both Thinking and Feeling, backed up by hard objective evidence. He referes to people who have lost their feeling ability through brain damage but are excellent reasoners - they are quite unable to function well in ordinary life. It doesn't refer to MBTI at all, so I'll be interested to see how much insight it brings from a totally different perspective. I've only just started reading it, so early days yet.

 

[Serval]

I'd say that I experience all of them, but i don't actually remember any example.
Speaking about the last way of expressing Fe, i almost always translate the hate towards others to me.
I also experience other kinds of emotions like envy, i envy others a lot, mostly because i think i could be able to do whatever others do, therefore i realize i can only do what i can and i feel like i was a monster for being so envious. (maybe i am off topic, i am sory if i am)
Speaking about the "salty nature" and the "sour spite" i do that a lot of times, with everyone, even with my parents or with "strangers" older than me, i try to correct them, to make them nicer people. Although this behaviour usually bothers others and i feel bothered by it to.

I don't know if the story i am about to tell is Fe using, but i'll do it:
Recently i passed through a very deep depressive state, one that i have never experienced, or that i wasn't aware of.
Every day seemed dark and bright as it ever is but it had something strange, something that didn't allow me to look at and to life, to pursue it.
It was like if i felt only sad, but i knew i wasn't.
One day i decided not to speak anymore to anyone, i decided to cry all day and to say every single thought i had in that moment (even the "darkest") and acted like a creazy man; of course my mother didn't take that very well, she was angry, mad but also very sad, for herself (having born and raised a nonsense) and for me, so she more or less collapsed, by that time i wasn't sad, o felt nothing, nothong at all, I knew i had some emotions and being aware of them made me able to manipulate them, but i did nothing, i left my responsibilities to the hands of other people: my brother and my father.
After that day i continued to stay that way for quite a time. Every day was sad, i was fullh aware of how others felt so, finally i deafeted my "social" stubbornness and I tried to change things for not letting the people around me feel sad and angry.
From this i think i am stupid, i always think so, i think i am worthless and unable to do or to be nothing, i'd say i am only able to do bad things, to be a monster. I search for hope, but i can't find it, i can only feel it, sense it, be aware of its presence.

 

[Serval]

Sometimes i also feel like everyone, even myself, is my puppet, i don't want to say that i think i am God, because i could never be who i am not without non being what i was before.

 

[dragulagu]

That's a very interesting build on what I was exploring and makes a lot of sense to me. It's fascinating to contrast Fi led interactions with their importance given to values, against Fe led interactions where the emphasis is placed on the desired social effect. My experience is that this is a bias rather than black and white polarisation, with a lot of cross talk between the two - it's more a matter of which an individual goes to first habitually rather than whether they go there at all. I'm very much aware of that as a Roman Catholic, with all the pre-fabricated values that comes with the faith. I tend not to lead from the front with those sort of values, but they are always there as a kind of safety net, and I think long and hard about setting the sensible ones aside.

My wife bought me a fascinating book for Christmas called Descartes' Error by a neuroscientist called Antonio Damasio that essentially says it's impossible to function effectively without a combination of both Thinking and Feeling, backed up by hard objective evidence. He referes to people who have lost their feeling ability through brain damage but are excellent reasoners - they are quite unable to function well in ordinary life. It doesn't refer to MBTI at all, so I'll be interested to see how much insight it brings from a totally different perspective. I've only just started reading it, so early days yet.

Correct, it is a bias, it is all situational but still there will always be a preference on how "you" will be more reactive emotionally/subconsciously in a preferred way (whether it'll be Fe or Fi) on a situation.

If anything, as a recent example, I had to switch emotions in a group situation recently on new-year; in short, there was bad news about a friend but we were at a party so we had keep the spirits up. So I had to pull the Fe out of my subconscious hat and even though it was possible to shut my internal emotions down and "switch" to a better mood, it was damn hard for me personally to keep these (Fi) emotions in check. So it drained a lot of energy from me.

Bought the (e)book by the way, another one on the read list. Thanks!

 

[dragulagu]

From this i think i am stupid, i always think so, i think i am worthless and unable to do or to be nothing, i'd say i am only able to do bad things, to be a monster. I search for hope, but i can't find it, i can only feel it, sense it, be aware of its presence.

You are not stupid or worthless @Serval

Sometimes i also feel like everyone, even myself, is my puppet, i don't want to say that i think i am God, because i could never be who i am not without non being what i was before.

And that's not a great perception, each person is master of their own life; with their own personal picture of it. We only have our own perception on a situation (10.000's perceptions a day for that matter, a lot of negative one's), but reality 99% of the time is a lot more positive than what we perceive.

 

[Serval]

And that's not a great perception, each person is master of their own life; with their own personal picture of it. We only have our own perception on a situation (10.000's perceptions a day for that matter, a lot of negative one's), but reality 99% of the time is a lot more positive than what we perceive

I only feel like that, i don't actually think so.
I understand what you are saying, i really do, but i tend to be very indecisive, skeptical, devoured by questions, i don't really know the answers.

 

[Serval]

You are not stupid or worthless

I can see what you say, but i internalise this idea and almost force it to become what i think i could be, or i could not.
When i see others being something, or at least i perceive it like it, i feel sad for myself and happy for the others and vice versa.
I said when before because sometimes, almost everytime, maybe never, i feel like the world whitout me wouldn't exist and at the same time a world without others would be worthless.