If the government's healthcare insurance is so good...

[BenW]

Most of the world has mandatory paid vacations. Usually 4 or 5 weeks a year.

And?
The US does not.

Outsourcing also takes away your jobs and perpetuate abuse against poor workers. Minimum wage is a protective measure against abuse. The idea that americans get paid high wages is absurd. The dollar isn't even that powerful really.

Whatever intent is behind minimum wage is irrespective of the fact that it's had negative effects.
As logic would dictate, if cheap labor were available inside the US, there wouldn't be any incentive to outsource jobs.

A better economy by "freedom" is a mistaken concept. As well as there is rapid growth, there are moments of quick intense collapse - like now. In many countries more people kept their jobs because it would cost the companies a lot of money to fire them.

A cycle of expansion and recession is a normal part of any functioning economy.

The housing bubble was not part of a normal business cycle, it was a result of mismanagement of and interference with the economy.

The highest quality of life (ranking):

1

Ireland 8.333 2

Switzerland 8.068 3

Norway 8.051 4

Luxembourg 8.015 5

Sweden 7.937 6

Australia 7.925 7

Iceland 7.911 8

Italy 7.810 9

Denmark 7.797 10

Spain 7.727

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

If you think you have a lot of freedom and there is only your definition of everything, then once again I must conclude you haven't travelled much outside the US. Since most americans don't ever go abroad, it's easier to make them believe anything.

My views, philosophies, beliefs, and arguments have abso-fucking-lutely NOTHING to do with me living in the US.

If you think otherwise, start arguing with these organizations.
http://www.libertarian.ca/
http://www.libertarianz.org.nz/
http://www.isil.org/resources/fnn/2003summer/russian-libertarians.html
http://lpuk.org/
http://www.upr.org.pl/main/index.php
http://www.libertarischepartij.nl/
http://www.pliber.org/

I guess the only way for you to resolve cognitive dissonance with these ideas must be to dismiss them by means of pathetic nationalism.

 

[mallory knox]

nationalist? how?
you don't even know what my nationality is.
if anything, you're the one being nationalist.

I'm actually wishing american people would be granted their basic human rights and not die for being poor.

I think Tamagochi said a lot, you have this great ability to ignore good points. I don't think you have travelled, you will see you are mistaken.

PP per Capita does not equal quality of life. A small minority is making a lot of money and the great majority making shit, they get to an average in the end.

The collapse caused by recessions is more intense in places with less regulation.

 

[BenW]

nationalist? how?
you don't even know what my nationality is.
if anything, you're the one being nationalist.

...

I think Tamagochi said a lot, you have this great ability to ignore good points. I don't think you have travelled, you will see you are mistaken.

The only thing you have to fall back is that I must just some ignorant American, who needs to travel to other countries, in order to argue about theoretic economics. That's a pathetic excuse to dismiss my arguments with.
I can guarantee you, visiting or living in other countries would have ZERO impact upon my beliefs.

I'm actually wishing american people would be granted their basic human rights and not die for being poor.

There is no "right" to "not die", regardless of your economic situation... Thats a pretty hilarious concept, given that every human ever born is inevitably going to die eventually.

There is a right not to be killed, but that's something very separate.

PP per Capita does not equal quality of life. A small minority is making a lot of money and the great majority making shit, they get to an average in the end.

Do you have any idea how GDP is calculated?
Does "private consumption" mean anything to you?

The collapse caused by recessions is more intense in places with less regulation.

I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion, given that the argument for regulation isn't to cure the symptoms, but to prevent it from having happened in the first place.

Trying to discuss things with you has become an annoyance.
You never seem to pay attention to anything I say before you respond.

 

[Satya]

No, the United States democratic republic is by no means pure.

We are a Constitutional Republic.

 

[Faye]

We are a Constitutional Republic.

We're a democratic republic with a constitution that functions as a plutocracy.

Calling it a constitutional republic is redundant. All governments are constitutional, written or unwritten. The question is does the system maintain the rule of law?

 

[Azure_Knight]

For my argument I propose that the current American health care system is too expensive and provides substandard care to up to milllions of Americans as is evident that 40 million Americans are uninsured and double that are underinsured. As Obama's platform included health care reform as his leading policy, and the American public elected him and a majority of his party, it is clear that the public wishes for reform. Therefore, it falls upon the responsibility of citizens to propose reform which will make health care affordable for every American citizen while also keeping it profitable. This article discusses some options which are available.

http://socialissues.wiseto.com/Articles/FO3020630056/

What is your source for the 40 million uninsured and 80 million uninsured?

I will look over the social issues link that you have provided.

 

[mallory knox]

I paid enough attention: you haven

 

[Tamagochi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

That list can be a bit misleading because it does not show how much an average Joe carries home in his pocket. As for my field I do know for sure that I would get a higher net salary working in Ireland or UK rather than US. And I would also get the benefits of social insurance on top of that.

So US might be generating a higher overall GDP value but the majority of it goes into pockets of those who are already extremely rich.

In the end I would say every man and every country deserves what they get. If they don't want to change things then let them have them.

 

[Shai Gar]

I had a good hard long think about this, and I'm forced to agree with Billy and BenW. If this were an Australian Issue, I'd be fighting for social healthcare, however, the world doesn't need more Americans.

 

[Satya]

We're a democratic republic with a constitution that functions as a plutocracy.

Calling it a constitutional republic is redundant. All governments are constitutional, written or unwritten. The question is does the system maintain the rule of law?

The Congo is a Democratic Republic, we are a Constitutional Republic. They are different things. Democratic Republics emphasize democracy, whereas Constitutional Republics are based on adherence to a Constitution. Democratic Republics do not need a Constitution. Both Democratic Republics and Constitutional Republics are forms of representative democracy.

 

[Satya]

What is your source for the 40 million uninsured and 80 million uninsured?

I will look over the social issues link that you have provided.

Hm...I was going off the stats of the article I posted. Independent results put the number of underinsured at 75 million in 2007.

Adding these two groups together, 75 million adults—42 percent of the under-65 population—had either no insurance or inadequate insurance in 2007, up from 35 percent in 2003.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Con...-Trends-Among-U-S--Adults--2003-and-2007.aspx

That leads me to believe the number cited in the article is an exaggeration, yet the total still comes to around 30% of the country has no insurance or is underinsured.

 

[mallory knox]

I am still stunned that people don't realize how monstruous it sounds to say that free market is more important than human life.

But on the other hand, people with those beliefs have been ruling the world for a long time now, and they are the ones causing such destruction.

If we just let them be, we'll find ourselves with no air to breathe, no water to drink, more famine, more deaths and more wars.

 

[Satya]

I am still stunned that people don't realize how monstruous it sounds to say that free market is more important than human life.

Actually the argument is that liberty is more important than human life. As property is seen to being essential to liberty, it only makes sense that some people would argue that a freer market is essential to securing one's liberty. As Patrick Henry would say, "Give me liberty or give me death."

But on the other hand, people with those beliefs have been ruling the world for a long time now, and they are the ones causing such destruction.

By destruction you probably mean the exploitation of the world's resources, the pollution of the environment to the point of climatic change, and the suffering endured by the impoverished. Frankly, those things tend to be more the result of human irrationality than human ideology.

If we just let them be, we'll find ourselves with no air to breathe, no water to drink, more famine, more deaths and more wars.

Authoritative governments have lead to substantially more of the above than libertarian governments. Look at the Great Purge of the Soviet Union or the Holocaust of Nazi Germany.

 

[mallory knox]

No, if the ideology is to profit no matter what without considering who suffers from it, that is not liberty.

It would be if the average person had real access to decisions and had a say and a real chance.

Freedom for some to continue exploiting is not freedom.

 

[Satya]

No, if the ideology is to profit no matter what without considering who suffers from it, that is not liberty.

Liberty simply means "freedom to choose". Why should people be forced to choose to care for their fellow human beings over obtaining wealth?

It would be if the average person had real access to decisions and had a say and a real chance.

That would be the value of equality, not liberty.

Freedom for some to continue exploiting is not freedom.

Why isn't? If a person owns slaves, then it doesn't make the slave owner any less free.

 

[Shai Gar]

And the slaves are always free to kill their owner. A person is only bound by the social conventions they choose to be bound by.

 

[mallory knox]

what's with all this wanking now?

we're restricted by imposed values, lack of information, lack of knowledge of other people and cultures, lack of education, difficulties imposed by daily lives, conformity to norms.

we all know this. In this world, either you accept and play with their rules (specially in the job market) or your own survival/integrity will be in danger. Some of us might find less or more loopholes through the scheme, but in the end, not everyone is so lucky and that freedom only goes up to a certain degree.

you're never free if you're ignorant, poor or misinformed.

I'm gonna quote two people but sadly I can't remember their names now:

"whenever a camera is pointing somewhere, once should consider all the places it's not pointing at"

"freedom must exist in our minds before it can exist anywhere else"

 

[Satya]

we're restricted by imposed values, lack of information, lack of knowledge of other people and cultures, lack of education, difficulties imposed by daily lives, conformity to norms.

What restriction? If people don't like values, then they don't have to hold them. If people lack information then they can go out and find it for themselves. If people lack knowledge of other people and cultures then they can go find other people and cultures and get it. If people lack education then they can pick up a book. If people have difficulties imposed on their daily lives, then they can work to overcome those difficulties. If people don't like the norms, then they can strive to change those norms through action.

 

[mallory knox]

oh wow, is it really that easy?

there is a price to pay with every non-conformity act, and a lot of the times the price is more than we can afford. I refuse to believe you're that naive.

Freedom to exploit is not freedom, it's simply an excuse for exploitation.

Liberty shouldn't be used in an argument when trying to validate someone's "right" to restraint or exploit others.

 

[mallory knox]

What restriction? If people don't like values, then they don't have to hold them. If people lack information then they can go out and find it for themselves. If people lack knowledge of other people and cultures then they can go find other people and cultures and get it. If people lack education then they can pick up a book. If people have difficulties imposed on their daily lives, then they can work to overcome those difficulties. If people don't like the norms, then they can strive to change those norms through action.

1 - If people don't like values, then they don't have to hold them.

Naive. We're all shaped by values of the cultures we're inserted since we're born and too young to even notice. It's hard to get to the point that you'd be able to question the whole reality that surrounds you and all the things in it. That's why things like homophobia persist. And even so, we can't simple not hold on to these values without consequences. Let's say someone doesn't agree with the business ethics or the work relationship, if you're not abiding by those your life can become quite difficult and your integrity compromised.

2 - If people lack information they can go and find out for themselves.

Once again. That's if they realize they lack correct information. Most don't. Mainstream media and their chains belong to very few people and organizations, yet bombard people with information most people wouldn't find questionable. And the acess to alternative sources of information can be restricted through direct or indirect censorship.

3- If people lack knowledge of other people and cultures then they can go find other people and cultures and get it.

For the majority of the world, travelling abroad is a luxury they simply can't afford. And even if they could, depending on your nationality you might be required a visa, and that visa will be issued according to how wealthy you are. They just do not allow poor people from poor countries in places.

As for Americans, most of them don't even get a passport and can't afford travelling, and sadly they grow up with the idea that there's very little out there to learn from.

4- If people lack education then they can pick up a book.

If you weren't taught how to interpret texts when young and if you were not stimulated to read, you won't feel like doing that. Most people don't. The average american has a problem writing four paragraphs that are concise. It would show that your education is highly bias towards creating the kind of workers they want rather than making you able to be the kind of people you want to be.

5- If people have difficulties imposed on their daily lives, then they can work to overcome those difficulties.

Tell that to someone born in the poorest regions of Africa or Asia, or to a kid having to work for a dollar a day to sew the socks you're wearing. Or to someone with a degenerative chronic disease born in a poor family who has medical care denied.

6- f people don't like the norms, then they can strive to change those norms through action.

Hopefully.
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