If the government's healthcare insurance is so good...

[Shai Gar]

no

 

[errrrrrrrrrm]

I know I know Obambi

it's Obama

said he is gonna stick it to the rich on this one, but heres the issue, the "rich" as he is saying dont make paychecks and dont pay taxes the way everyone else does. So there will be some sort of loop hole for them Obambi friends and family included who dont have to pay.

so close the loopholes

But the billions upon billions will have to come from somewhere right? So quietly as they always do they will just up the federal withholding taxes taken from the middle class paychecks, instead of paying 200 or 300 a week in medicare taxes we will pay closer to 350-400 and higher. Imagine losing another 100 a week due to a new tax... another 400 a month out of your wallet, for some people who are living paycheck to paycheck thats thier car payment, or thier car insurance payments, or a portion of thier mortgage... this will do them NO good especially since car payments need to be made monthly,

how much do you think people are paying at the minute for insurance, or how much is their salary being reduced to pay for health care? IF the government run plan is at least as efficient as the health insurance companies then the average american will save money because their will be no dividends to share holders and no lawyers being employed to find loopholes in insurance plans

and most people are healthy and dont need health insurance until they are much much older. So basically thie is just going to make it harder and put MORE pressure on the shoulders of Average John and Jane Doe who goes to work every day and does the right thing.

1. What about the people who aren't young and healthy?
2. What about those young adults with children?
3. Most people who do need health care when they're young are healthy before they need it

It's just another 'I'm alright so screw the rest of you" argument

Juanita and her 12 children living illegally down the street on welfare will be able to get braces for her tax leeching family though, so yaaay!

unbelievable, just simply unbelievable, "I'm sorry John (is that an 'american' enough name to pull at the heart strings?), you can't have health care because some nasty foreigners might abuse the system and cost me some more money, so, sorry your child needs life saving surgery but I'm alright"

No telling how much longer this will and can go, you can only steal from the rich to give to the poor so much until the rich decide to move to a new more rich friendly niehborhood. Far from the rich bashing taxes they put up with here.

I know several millionaires who recently moved to South America to an American Ex Patriot community fit with gucci stores, jamba juice and the works. How long before that becomes the new norm? Then where the hell will we be?

there always have been tax havens for the rich, and the mega rich who can afford to do this already have accountants to avoid tax anyway, the benefits of increasing taxes on those that can afford to pay far outweigh the negatives.

IF it became the norm then you may end up with a country and government that works for the benefit of all your citizens rather than just those that can afford to have some influence.

 

[Satya]

1 - If people don't like values, then they don't have to hold them.

Naive. We're all shaped by values of the cultures we're inserted since we're born and too young to even notice. It's hard to get to the point that you'd be able to question the whole reality that surrounds you and all the things in it. That's why things like homophobia persist. And even so, we can't simple not hold on to these values without consequences. Let's say someone doesn't agree with the business ethics or the work relationship, if you're not abiding by those your life can become quite difficult and your integrity compromised.

Abide by the values that are important to you. Even Gandhi said "Be the change you wish to see in the world." It's every person responsibility to live only in accordance to the values that mean something to them.

2 - If people lack information they can go and find out for themselves.

Once again. That's if they realize they lack correct information. Most don't. Mainstream media and their chains belong to very few people and organizations, yet bombard people with information most people wouldn't find questionable. And the acess to alternative sources of information can be restricted through direct or indirect censorship.

How is it my problem if people are too stupid to interpret information? America doesn't censor. And I have a choice of what media I watch or don't watch.

3- If people lack knowledge of other people and cultures then they can go find other people and cultures and get it.

For the majority of the world, travelling abroad is a luxury they simply can't afford. And even if they could, depending on your nationality you might be required a visa, and that visa will be issued according to how wealthy you are. They just do not allow poor people from poor countries in places.

As for Americans, most of them don't even get a passport and can't afford travelling, and sadly they grow up with the idea that there's very little out there to learn from.

You don't have to travel very far in American to discover new people and cultures. We are a mixing pot after all.

4- If people lack education then they can pick up a book.

If you weren't taught how to interpret texts when young and if you were not stimulated to read, you won't feel like doing that. Most people don't. The average american has a problem writing four paragraphs that are concise. It would show that your education is highly bias towards creating the kind of workers they want rather than making you able to be the kind of people you want to be.​

I received an excellent education from a public school. I don't know what makes you an expert on American schools but what you are describing certainly wasn't my experience. Even if it was, it is the parent's responsibility to see to it their kids get a good education and so it isn't my problem if they don't.

5- If people have difficulties imposed on their daily lives, then they can work to overcome those difficulties.

Tell that to someone born in the poorest regions of Africa or Asia, or to a kid having to work for a dollar a day to sew the socks you're wearing. Or to someone with a degenerative chronic disease born in a poor family who has medical care denied.

Ain't my fault. It's up to them to make the best of a bad situation.​

 

[mallory knox]

America doesn't censor? think about that for a bit.

Regardless of being a mixing pot, you'd have to travel to find out that public health care works in other countries and it's not an evil thing.

Up to them? Hey people it's up to teh exploited starving people in Africa and Asia to make a difference in their lives????

God, you mentioned Ghandi, you know that thing you said would make him sick right? It goes against everything he ever stood for.

You're just making yourself sound absolutely ignorant, heartless and evil.

 

[errrrrrrrrrm]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita[/URL]

since when has GDP been the be all and end all?

surely the aquisition of wealth is motivated by wanting to improve the quality of your life.

I'll never understand americans, one the one hand every one I've met in person has been personable, friendly to the point of being weird and seemed genuinely interested in my well being, on the other hand for the sake of a few dollars a month you let people go bankrupt paying for the health care of loved one's, digging themselves into holes they'll never get out of because the only other option is letting their helpless innocent children die, for the sake a few brake horse power you'll deny future generations clean air to breath, you won't accept that guns readily available to almost anyone with a ID is a bad thing (gun control doesn't mean no guns, it's easy to get a gun in the UK, it just means you have to show you have a genuine reason for wanting one, like hunting or being a member of a gun club, and that you have a safe place to keep it so it can't get into the wrong hands), you allow special interest groups to dictate government policy and programs, the list just goes on and on.

 

[Satya]

America doesn't censor? think about that for a bit.

Exactly how does America censor?

Regardless of being a mixing pot, you'd have to travel to find out that public health care works in other countries and it's not an evil thing

People can do research without going to another country.

Up to them? Hey people it's up to teh exploited starving people in Africa and Asia to make a difference in their lives????

They probably should choose to not be exploited.

God, you mentioned Ghandi, you know that thing you said would make him sick right? It goes against everything he ever stood for.

How so? Gandhi chose not to be exploited. He should be an example to all those starving people you were talking about.

]You're just making yourself sound absolutely ignorant, heartless and evil.

Evil is a relative term. Those who have values different than your own are usually those whom you would perceive as evil. I'm not sure why I'm heartless just because I want people to be free to choose. If I have said something in ignorance, then feel free to point it out.

 

[shannishannon]

Whoa! I wonder if the outcry over universal healthcare when it was enacted in 1966 in Canada was as intense.

Get with the times, people. This is long overdue. Maybe this way some of our expatriate doctors will come home if this heathcare system that is being proposed is as BAD as some people are saying.

Hooray! I can choose another doctor...not because I have proper insurance, but because there will be more to choose from!

Before people think I am glorifying Canadian health care, I am not. I work in the system as a RN and I see the abuses daily. Our system works not like a Cadillac, but more like a trusty old clunker. I wouldn`t trade our system for anything.

 

[errrrrrrrrrm]

Exactly how does America censor?

Noam Chomsky is an excellent writer on this subject (and many others)

They probably should choose to not be exploited.

thats very easy to say, I wonder how your views would differ if you had lived their lives

How so? Gandhi chose not to be exploited. He should be an example to all those starving people you were talking about.

I see, life's so simple

Evil is a relative term. Those who have values different than your own are usually those whom you would perceive as evil. I'm not sure why I'm heartless just because I want people to be free to choose. If I have said something in ignorance, then feel free to point it out.

I believe it's this comment the poster was referring to, translated as "I'm all right jack, so eff you"

Ain't my fault. It's up to them to make the best of a bad situation.

 

[Satya]

Noam Chomsky is an excellent writer on this subject (and many others)

I love Chomsky! Although he doesn't say that America censors, he says that the media censors.

thats very easy to say, I wonder how your views would differ if you had lived their lives

I'm sure they would.

I see, life's so simple

Not at all simply. It's a pain in the ass. Anything worth having is worth working and sacrificing a lot to obtain. I've been incredibly fortunate to have been born in this country at this time.

I believe it's this comment the poster was referring to, translated as "I'm all right jack, so eff you"

The world is an unfair place. It is, quite literally, survival of the fittest. America has the power it has now because it exploits the resources, energy, and time of the rest of the world.. Heck our history is based on using genocidal massacre to reduce the native inhabitants of the land and enslaving countless individuals from Africa to work our fields. And time and time again we have proven that if our way of life is threatened then we have no problem using force to maintain it. We pretty it up by calling it "national security" or "promoting freedom and democracy" but ultimately we just want the rest of the world's resources and labor so that we can have cheap goods and services. Frankly, would it be different if some other country held all the cards? The only difference is that we would be the ones starving and suffering, and we would be looking up the barrel of the most financed military in the world if we even thought of doing anything about it. It's a dog eat dog world and we just happen to be top dog at this moment in history.

 

[AUM]

What do you all think of a "One World Government"? Are we heading to that direction?.....Maybe?

 

[mallory knox]

it doesn't matter if it would be different if any other country was calling the shots

what matters is that people should care for people and desire for evolution not the destruction of the world

your admission that your views would be different if you were a poor slave in asia is just an admission of pure assholism

 

[Tamagochi]

I think this discussion has taken a wrong track.

I do understand that American people value freedom and liberalism very highly and that mandatory public health service might seem like an attack on that. You might feel that it's something imposed against your will and restricts personal choice. So BenW and Billy are right in their reasoning. But it's only a part of a larger picture. And there are people in your own country (probably including the ones who had paid for the commercials shown on this thread) who do not want you to see that picture.

In my view the government is merely a tool for it's people to help lead a kind of life they want. And they want certain things: to be safe and to be healthy are some of them. In a democratic society people can exercise their freedom and choose how these needs get implemented - for example health care can be entrusted to private companies or run by the government itself. In most countries social medicine was not enforced at all - rather it was desired by it's people who then elected their representatives and who made it into necessary laws. So it was all legal and according to the opinion of the majority. The public and the government made sort of deal - the former pays the taxes and the latter provides the service.

If it really were such a burden to one's personal freedom - why people in UK and France are not demanding the abolishment of public health care right now?

And if you look deeper then public service does make a lot of sense. The purpose of the government is to serve it's people so they have more responsibility and motivation to do that rather then private companies who's purpose is to make a profit. That in result creates cheaper and more accessible service to everyone: regardless whether you have per-existing condition or not, are you poor or rich.

Opponents might complain that such a model lacks competition and efficiency so there is a trade-off. But the gain is that no one is left behind.

 

[Shai Gar]

The new system doesn't criminalise private health care, so what the fuck are you morons complaining about?

Don't like it? Get private health care.

I'm sure BoredNow's fianc

 

[mallory knox]

Shai Gar I liked it how simply you put it!

They are complaining because they don't want to know that their taxes is being used to save or treat poor people, because after all, they think they're only poor because they want and they're too lazy to be rich?

Even tho they don't mind their taxes being used to kill civilians in distant countries.

i mean they haven't protested against that as much as they are against health care.

intriguing.

 

[Satya]

The new system doesn't criminalise private health care, so what the fuck are you morons complaining about?

Don't like it? Get private health care.

I'm sure BoredNow's fianc

 

[errrrrrrrrrm]

Opponents might complain that such a model lacks competition and efficiency so there is a trade-off. But the gain is that no one is left behind.

but competition in the US health care system isn't making it more efficient, they currently spend around 17% of GDP on health care, and it's rising faster than salaries or inflation. 25% of the amount spent is profit for the insurance companies, 7% is administration costs. This is despite health care usage being lower than other developed countries, if it costs more to use it less how can it be more efficient?

 

[mallory knox]

They are angry because the rich and a portion of the middle class will have to pay to support many of the 40 million uninsured.

OF COURSE because poor people don't pay taxes at all right right right right.
fuck it.

 

[IndigoSensor]

They are angry because the rich and a portion of the middle class will have to pay to support many of the 40 million uninsured.

You know what I say to them?

Suck it up.

 

[bamf]

OF COURSE because poor people don't pay taxes at all right right right right.
fuck it.

What about the poor people who actually don't pay taxes? Do they get the same coverage as the poor people who pay taxes?

 

[IndigoSensor]

What about the poor people who actually don't pay taxes? Do they get the same coverage as the poor people who pay taxes?

If you are required to pay taxes, and you don't pay taxes, you should not receive government help.