INFJs and internet relationships/LDRs

Okay, well I guess I will elaborate... if you are so concerned about your ability to support a woman financially, it is clear you are influenced by gender roles -- and there is nothing in the world wrong with that either... but you also want a more idealistic type of love too, naturally (who wouldn't).

I think if you find a woman who is clearly able to work and get an education and wants to be an equal partner with you rather than almost an employee-employer relationship, then you have gone a long way towards finding someone who will love you always rather than see you as the sperm-donor/meal ticket you seem to fear you may be. If you marry someone who is perhaps not quite emotionally mature enough to feel and be independent and self-sufficient, it is less likely you will find what you are looking for.

(????) That's what I think, anyway.

Oh, yeah, and breast implants? 9 times out of 10, sure sign of a meal-ticket-seeker because those things are designed to generate income. And not just for plastic surgeons. Not always, of course, but it is a good rule of thumb.
 
Yield said:
That's an interesting anxiety but I think that is being very paranoid. As far as I know, a husband is essential in creating that 'family' that a normal woman would want. Why on earth a woman would marry you JUST to have kids is beyond me and, I think, slightly ridiculous. Okay it could happen, but the likelihood of you landing yourself a woman like that is probably very slim, considering, as an INFJ, you won't let someone in so easily anyway.
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Very paranoid. But realizing and accepting the fact that one is paranoid isn't the silver bullet that will snap them out of the fear-trance they live in.

On some level, the person (me) needs to work through the fear. I don't know how to work through that alone - seems like that the problem can only be worked through with someone else and putting your fears to death in practice while in a relationship by becoming vulnerable with them.

But the problem is a double edged sword. Not only if there the fear side of the blade but there's also the self-doubting side of the blade. Because of the mistakes in my past it's incredibly hard for me to trust myself with loving anyone now. So practically working on my fears in a relationship becomes experimenting with someone's heart and feelings. UNACCEPTABLE.

Janet said:
Okay, well I guess I will elaborate... if you are so concerned about your ability to support a woman financially, it is clear you are influenced by gender roles -- and there is nothing in the world wrong with that either... but you also want a more idealistic type of love too, naturally (who wouldn't).

I think if you find a woman who is clearly able to work and get an education and wants to be an equal partner with you rather than almost an employee-employer relationship, then you have gone a long way towards finding someone who will love you always rather than see you as the sperm-donor/meal ticket you seem to fear you may be. If you marry someone who is perhaps not quite emotionally mature enough to feel and be independent and self-sufficient, it is less likely you will find what you are looking for.

(????) That's what I think, anyway.

Oh, yeah, and breast implants? 9 times out of 10, sure sign of a meal-ticket-seeker because those things are designed to generate income. And not just for plastic surgeons. Not always, of course, but it is a good rule of thumb.
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Haha @ the implants part.

I really don't think I'm going to be that guy that brings in six figures every year and whoever decides to marry me will have to be ok with that. I guess the perceived expectation is that that's what all women want, which isn't true.

Pitted against that perceived expectation, though, I feel like a highschooler again. "Girls only like guys that are on the football team". As long as he believes that, he's not going to ask a girl out.

I feel like I'm in a catch-22.
 
Wyst said:
I really don't think I'm going to be that guy that brings in six figures every year and whoever decides to marry me will have to be ok with that. I guess the perceived expectation is that that's what all women want, which isn't true.

Pitted against that perceived expectation, though, I feel like a highschooler again. "Girls only like guys that are on the football team". As long as he believes that, he's not going to ask a girl out.

I feel like I'm in a catch-22.
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Well, you're not the only guy who feels this way, I'm sorry to say, and I think it is a sign that a lot of people just don't see themselves as lovable enough, and that is so unfortunate. Seeing as how you speak Japanese (right?) and beautiful English, and seem to be very intelligent and nice and perceptive, it seems like you have a lot of loveable qualities, and I'm saddened to hear that you don't think women would like that. You may be right about some women but not all!

And in case you haven't noticed, we are in the middle of a horrific recession, and many couples still love each other and are pitching in to make ends meet... maybe these couples aren't focused on enough but good, meaningful relationships and friendships are out there that transcend anyone's earning power. "For better or worse" sometimes means just that, and a lot of couples have been through the "worse" part here lately. You can use your good sense to observe women's behavior and judge whether or not you date someone who is the sort of person you are looking for or not.

And what if your wife decides being a stay-at-home mom is too hard? It is very difficult sometimes, you know. What then? Surely you won't blame yourself or stop loving her? There's a degree of uncertainty in these things. (I know, SUCKS, doesn't it?)
 
Janet said:
Well, you're not the only guy who feels this way, I'm sorry to say, and I think it is a sign that a lot of people just don't see themselves as lovable enough, and that is so unfortunate. Seeing as how you speak Japanese (right?) and beautiful English, and seem to be very intelligent and nice and perceptive, it seems like you have a lot of loveable qualities, and I'm saddened to hear that you don't think women would like that. You may be right about some women but not all!
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It's stupid - I know. I've had to have a DTR in the past 3 months who I knew were interested in me. They were interested but I wasn't - partially because I'm an emotional nightmare - so I know that the 'I'm unlovable' thing is a lie. I just don't know how to put the lie in its place and move on.

And what if your wife decides being a stay-at-home mom is too hard? It is very difficult sometimes, you know. What then? Surely you won't blame yourself or stop loving her? There's a degree of uncertainty in these things. (I know, SUCKS, doesn't it?)
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Not at all. I want my wife to be happy - if she wants to work, great. If she wants to stay at home with the kids, great, provided I can provide the income to make that possible.

I'm going to begin getting counseling for my depression next week. This is also something I want to work on while I'm in counseling.
 
Wyst said:
About halfway down the beach, I stopped and said, "This is gonna sound really stupid but.. can I hold your hand?" She got the biggest grin on her face like, "Of course you can, silly (Gah! Finally!)" So we walked on the beach hand in hand until the sun started going down and it got cold.

to be continued...
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sometimes a simple silly question like this seems too cute! how could she not say yes! I love it!
 
Wyst said:
When you say this, are you referring to how I'm judging the situation now, or how I handled/reacted to the situation two years ago?
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None of those. I'm referring to how others are judging your situation.
 
Restraint said:
I grew up in a environment where the traditional role of the father was primarily as a breadwinner, so the worth of the man in the relationship is as a "paycheck" and they were treated as such, and the relationship between the couple was strained once the children came along. So, it is not difficult to understand where you're coming from Wyst. And i doubt it has anything to do with whether you see yourself as lovable enough. Let's not be naive. People use each other everyday to get what they want, but we rarely notice because they're too busy being charming and telling their partners exactly what they want to hear. So, i get where you're coming from.
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I don't know where your home is but that's not the way it is in western society today. Those gender roles are mostly redundant, especially in modern American culture.
 
Yield said:
I don't know where your home is but that's not the way it is in western society today. Those gender roles are mostly redundant, especially in modern American culture.
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i deleted the original post.
 
I realize a lot of people may feel mislead by the first 6/7s of 'my story'. The reality of the matter is that's how the relationship began AND ended. It was off to a pretty amazing start. Problem is, people are (I am) stupid sometimes and have a tendency to botch things. How I handled things two year ago is an example of how -not- to do it. I didn't want to reveal the ending prematurely, otherwise the shock value of my blunder would have been lost because, due to the readers potentially having no interest once they knew where it was headed.

I kept encountering threads with questions from INFJs on internet dating/LDRs and their interest/curiosity in it. It can be hard/tricky, especially for us. My hope was to prevent someone's future history from looking like my own.
 
Wyst said:
I realize a lot of people may feel mislead by the first 6/7s of 'my story'. The reality of the matter is that's how the relationship began AND ended. It was off to a pretty amazing start. Problem is, people are (I am) stupid sometimes and have a tendency to botch things. How I handled things two year ago is an example of how -not- to do it. I didn't want to reveal the ending prematurely, otherwise the shock value of my blunder would have been lost because, due to the readers potentially having no interest once they knew where it was headed.

I kept encountering threads with questions from INFJs on internet dating/LDRs and their interest/curiosity in it. It can be hard/tricky, especially for us. My hope was to prevent someone's future history from looking like my own.
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Your fears were understandable.
 
Restraint said:
Your fears were understandable.
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Mmm... actually, I wasn't trying to justify my fears. I was more addressing the responses of 'wtf did you put us through that story for this crappy' ending.

I just don't want people to get distracted in whether or not I was right. I admit I was wrong. I just want people to learn from my mistake.
 
Wyst said:
Mmm... actually, I wasn't trying to justify my fears. I was more addressing the responses of 'wtf did you put us through that story for this crappy' ending.
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Mate, I don't think that is important. Okay so people were enjoying this story because it was sweet and had us on the edge of our seats. The ending, which was the honest truth, you chose to communicate because you wanted to say something. This was a retelling of real events after all. If people are pissed because it maybe wasn't a 'happy ending' then they missed the point.
 
Wyst said:
Mmm... actually, I wasn't trying to justify my fears. I was more addressing the responses of 'wtf did you put us through that story for this crappy' ending.

I just don't want people to get distracted in whether or not I was right. I admit I was wrong. I just want people to learn from my mistake.
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I didn't say you were justifying them. I withdraw my comment.
 
OH my goodness!! There's so much I wanna say, but my reply would be 10 pages long :D. To avoid that, I'm just gonna post the condensed version.

First, I want to thank you Wyst for baring your soul, as it were, to share your experiences and help us learn from them. I could see myself in many of your tendencies, such as expecting the worse, preoccupation with doing the right thing, making a mountain out of a molehill, and super over-analyzing a situation and making false assumptions. I do this allll the time, with my family, friends, and professionally. It's not a flaw, however, because it's a reflection of a deep and rich imagination, and it's also easy, natural, and enjoyable to imagine the most dramatically wonderful outcomes too.

"The future is not a result of choices among alternative paths offered by the present, but a place that is created -- created first in the mind and will, created next in activity."

"The future is not some place we are going to, but one we are creating. The paths are not to be found, but made, and the activity of making them, changes both the maker and the destination." -John Schaar, Futurist

In addition,
Fear is indicator. In modern language we say "I AM afraid", but that's a lie. You are not fear, you FEEL fear. Fear is an indicator of what you are focusing on or thinking that resonates as FALSE with your higher self. That's it.

Maybe you feel stuck because you're trying to eliminate fear, but that's impossible. What you want, is to feel CONFIDENCE. When you feel confidence, you cannot feel fear. That's it. However, FEAR IS VALUABLE. It's our indicator that what we are thinking about, obsessing over, dramatizing in our mind, is false/doesn't exist/isn't true, based upon our broader, higher spiritual perspective of KNOWING. This is what I believe, and I offer it to you in the event you find it useful. There were also false assumptions made about finding "the one" that greatly contributed to your stressful experience--needlessly so, if you haven't become aware of them.

Btw, everyone lives in a fantasy world. Reality is Perception. The key question is, have you created your fantasy as a wonderland or a nightmare?
 
Siela25 said:
OH my goodness!! There's so much I wanna say, but my reply would be 10 pages long :D. To avoid that, I'm just gonna post the condensed version.

First, I want to thank you Wyst for baring your soul, as it were, to share your experiences and help us learn from them. I could see myself in many of your tendencies, such as expecting the worse, preoccupation with doing the right thing, making a mountain out of a molehill, and super over-analyzing a situation and making false assumptions. I do this allll the time, with my family, friends, and professionally. It's not a flaw, however, because it's a reflection of a deep and rich imagination, and it's also easy, natural, and enjoyable to imagine the most dramatically wonderful outcomes too.

"The future is not a result of choices among alternative paths offered by the present, but a place that is created -- created first in the mind and will, created next in activity."

"The future is not some place we are going to, but one we are creating. The paths are not to be found, but made, and the activity of making them, changes both the maker and the destination." -John Schaar, Futurist

In addition,
Fear is indicator. In modern language we say "I AM afraid", but that's a lie. You are not fear, you FEEL fear. Fear is an indicator of what you are focusing on or thinking that resonates as FALSE with your higher self. That's it.

Maybe you feel stuck because you're trying to eliminate fear, but that's impossible. What you want, is to feel CONFIDENCE. When you feel confidence, you cannot feel fear. That's it. However, FEAR IS VALUABLE. It's our indicator that what we are thinking about, obsessing over, dramatizing in our mind, is false/doesn't exist/isn't true, based upon our broader, higher spiritual perspective of KNOWING. This is what I believe, and I offer it to you in the event you find it useful. There were also false assumptions made about finding "the one" that greatly contributed to your stressful experience--needlessly so, if you haven't become aware of them.

Btw, everyone lives in a fantasy world. Reality is Perception. The key question is, have you created your fantasy as a wonderland or a nightmare?
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Thanks, so much Siela. Interesting.
So, fear is only what me make it/how much power we let it have over us.

Allow me to play devil's advocate for just bit - I'm curious as to what reaction I might get...
So, if the future is created, ultimately by action and is a place that is created (in part) by my actions, are you saying that I can simply 'write fear off' as though it didn't matter, saying, "I really am apprehensive about this situation... but I'm throwing caution to the wind and will plow forward regardless. Afterall, I am the captain of my destiny, I'll make it happen".

Granted, I exaggerated a lot above.. but put practically, it'd look like this, "Well, I'm not going to get over my fears unless I deal with them, so never mind that I feel like damaged goods. It's time to start dating again!".

I don't think this is what you're saying - but I'd like to understand.
 
P.S.

Don't feel bad about the "crappy" ending. I knew it would end exactly the way it did. Weird, but true. I also think this experience was a fantastic learning experience. You said you don't want to experiment with anyone's feelings, but ALL relationships are an experiment! There's no guarantee in any of it. The guarantee of perfection isn't what makes the relationship exciting. It's the day by day living, CREATING moments, dreams, and REALIZING THEM that makes a relationship fantastic!!! That's what being a lover is, i.e., one who loves (present tense). You can't do that if your relationship is already charted out and pre-planned in infinitesimal detail (future tense). If it were, what's the point? Where's the excitement, the GROWTH?, the deepening connection?! :)
 
Siela25 said:
You said you don't want to experiment with anyone's feelings, but ALL relationships are an experiment! There's no guarantee in any of it. The guarantee of perfection isn't what makes the relationship exciting. It's the day by day living, CREATING moments, dreams, and REALIZING THEM that makes a relationship fantastic!!! That's what being a lover is, i.e., one who loves (present tense). You can't do that if your relationship is already charted out and pre-planned in infinitesimal detail (future tense). If it were, what's the point? Where's the excitement, the GROWTH?, the deepening connection?! :)
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So it's wrong to at least have the expectation that you could meet someone and be with them for the rest of your life?
 
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