INFJs and Vegetarianism

[Faye]

I'm not talking about all that. I'm talking about people who would have you believe that not eating meat doesn't kill any animals. This is just as ignorant and detached as ordering a slab of meat without knowing where it came from.

Okay. But how does not eating meat kill animals? And wont less animals die if fewer people eat meat? Like, from an animal rights perspective, vegetarianism is the morally superior option.

 

[sprinkles]

Okay. But how does not eating meat kill animals? And wont less animals die if fewer people eat meat? Like, from an animal rights perspective, vegetarianism is the morally superior option.

Farmland makes habitat nearly useless for animals, which permanently reduces their populations. Wild pigs and deer become pests, eating corn, melons, potatoes etc. and they get shot by hunters and farmers. Misdirected wild pigs are especially annoying to humans because they tear up the ground that humans so carefully cultivate.

Large scale farming equipment is also dangerous to small mammals. Machines have a tendency to chop up small mammals that get in the way. Plowing damages the microbiology of the soil. Selective pesticides break parts of the food chain by eliminating necessary competitions in one population so that another species becomes out of control, or harming key predators or prey insects.

This is not about morality, it is about knowing the facts involved with choices.

 

[Matt3737]

Even if no other animal cooks food, there are plenty which prepare food using tools. Otters bust open clams using rocks. Shrikes impale lizards and frogs onto thorns or barbed wire fences so they can use it as a meat hook to more easily butcher their prey, and they also use this as storage for their food.

What difference does some heat make when a bird captures a toxic grasshopper and impales it on a spike for two days which is long enough for the toxin to become harmless to the bird, which then comes back to eat dinner?

I was making the point that human's usage of fire is a profound evolutionary adaptation that makes the article I was referring to irrelevant and misleading.

[video=youtube_share;IFFD6aq43YU]http://youtu.be/IFFD6aq43YU[/video]

 

[sprinkles]

I was making the point that human's usage of fire is a profound evolutionary adaptation that makes the article I was referring to irrelevant and misleading.

Oh. That doesn't come across when you say

Name another animal that cooks their food and I'll take this article seriously.

If another animal ever evolves the ability to cook food then you'd take the article seriously which contradicts what you just said. If the article doesn't apply to humans then it STILL doesn't apply to humans even if another animal could cook.

 

[Faye]

Farmland makes habitat nearly useless for animals, which permanently reduces their populations. Wild pigs and deer become pests, eating corn, melons, potatoes etc. and they get shot by hunters and farmers. Misdirected wild pigs are especially annoying to humans because they tear up the ground that humans so carefully cultivate.

Large scale farming equipment is also dangerous to small mammals. Machines have a tendency to chop up small mammals that get in the way. Plowing damages the microbiology of the soil. Selective pesticides break parts of the food chain by eliminating necessary competitions in one population so that another species becomes out of control, or harming key predators or prey insects.

This is not about morality, it is about knowing the facts involved with choices.

Okay, given all of that, isn't vegetarianism still better because the amount of land that has to be cultivated in order to feed livestock is much greater than the amount amount of land needed to cultivate vegetables? Or are you suggesting that a return to small scale pre-industrial farming techniques would be preferable because vegans can't be absolutely 100% non-violent toward animals when they consume industrial farm products?

All of the wild pigs and deer that get shot must be a very small number in comparison to the billions of animals that are killed in CFOs each year globally.

 

[sprinkles]

Okay, given all of that, isn't vegetarianism still better because the amount of land that has to be cultivated in order to feed livestock is much greater than the amount amount of land needed to cultivate vegetables? Or are you suggesting that a return to small scale pre-industrial farming techniques would be preferable because vegans can't be absolutely 100% non-violent toward animals when they consume industrial farm products?

All of the wild pigs and deer that get shot must be a very small number in comparison to the billions of animals that are killed in CFOs each year globally.

I was never talking about which one is better. I was talking about the assumptions which people make.

If you look at the info and decide that being vegetarian is better then that is fine. I'm saying look at the info and then decide - don't just magically assume that no animals get hurt without even verifying it.

 

[Matt3737]

Oh. That doesn't come across when you say

If another animal ever evolves the ability to cook food then you'd take the article seriously which contradicts what you just said. If the article doesn't apply to humans then it STILL doesn't apply to humans even if another animal could cook.

If and when another animal adapts the ability to use fire and further evolves from it's usage, I'll resurrect us both so we can have a lively discussion about it.

Yes, you are correct. The point is that it does not apply in either case. It's mostly irrelevant information.

 

[Lerxst]

Name another animal that cooks their food and I'll take this article seriously.

Name another animal stupid (or suicidal maybe?) enough to eat food that has to be cooked for it to be safe to eat.

 

[Matt3737]

Name another animal stupid (or suicidal maybe?) enough to eat food that has to be cooked for it to be safe to eat.

Why are vultures so stupid as to eat rotting carcasses? That's a really loaded statement, don't you think? Is it that carnivora shouldn't exist, cooking food shouldn't occur (we cook vegetables too, ya know), that the usage of fire is some evolutionary abomination, or that the consumption of plants cannot be dangerous (you'd be cherry picking your information)? I have no clue as to what sort of nonsense you're trying to get at here.

A list of poisonous foods we enjoy eating including mushrooms, almonds, cherries, apples, tomatoes, and potatoes:
http://listverse.com/2009/01/06/top-10-poisonous-foods-we-love-to-eat/

The answer comes back to evolution. A vulture, for instance, eats almost exclusively rotting or semi-rotting food, and as a result has a stomach tuned to sterilizing such hazardous materials. Few parasites can survive the acid bath of a scavenger’s stomach, and the same is true to a lesser extent about most carnivores. Their small frontal cortices and lack of opposable thumbs mean that lions cannot build fires, and as such must deal with the problems of raw meat via their biology. For the most part they have done so — but remember that lions still do acquire a fair number of problems from their diet. No digestive strategy is perfect.

Some studies have even suggested that raw meat (and raw food in general) was simply incapable of providing the calories necessary to create our big, complex brains. Cooking also likely played into our psychological and social evolution; by retarding our ability to not sit and jabber around the campfire each night, our digestive systems may have played a major role in making us the sort of social animals we are today.

I'm sorry if you feel the need to be hostile, but let me assure you that will accomplish nothing for you and nothing against me. I'm not trying to discount vegetarianism or veganism. If you feel inclined to those lifestyles, then more power to you.

This isn't about being right or wrong, but if you feel that it is then I would hope that you could manage to demonstrate it in an appropriate manner.

Edit: I will concede the point that (I think [MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION] may have been alluding to this) my comment was flippant. It certainly was dismissive, as I feel and stand by that it is misleading information, but it wasn't intended to be overtly mean-spirited or derogatory. I apologize if you, and/or anybody else, felt this way.

 

[sprinkles]

Name another animal stupid (or suicidal maybe?) enough to eat food that has to be cooked for it to be safe to eat.

Just about every omnivore will eat cooked food. Dogs cats rats bears eagles racoons blah blah blah all would eat cooked food.

They can't cook it, sure, but they'll eat it definitely.

Maybe we should ask instead for an animal which is smart enough to phrase a question properly.

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=2890]Lerxst[/MENTION]

Moreover, animals trade food borne bacteria and parasites all the time. Where do you think the danger of eating raw meat came from to begin with? It's not magic.

Additionally, many meats are relatively safe to eat raw. What makes them unsafe is cross contamination during butchering, e.g. particles of feces from the intestines getting spread around the place.

Animals are loaded with bacteria and parasites. Many animals get worms. They just don't care. Name an animal that is stupid enough to drink water which needs to be boiled - well that'd be just about all of them! Because you know what, they just drink the damn water and deal with the parasites contained therein (which is often a source of animal borne intestinal bacteria and the primary reason we cook meat to begin with!)

 

[sprinkles]

Also meat itself is perfectly harmless. The problem with eating raw meat is that it gets inhabited by bacteria and parasites, but that's not a problem with the meat itself.

If you could prevent an animal from catching harmful bacteria in the first place, you could eat it raw just fine. Wild animals are unsafe because they do not sterilize their selves the way humans do. This is why you don't eat wild game raw because it's usually infested with tiny worms and bacteria. Those worms and bacteria are not native to the animal, they get infected. How do they get infected? By eating infected foods, drinking infected water, and living around their own shit and other animals.

Humans decided that we're too smart to live in filth so we use soap and cook food because we don't want to catch all the diseases which animals gleefully trundle around in their bodies.

 

[Y0u]

The thought of eating meat makes me a little sick when I think about it.

If being vegan were easier -- though there are many humans that are treated almost as poorly (or maybe even worse) than some of the animals -- I guess I would probably be one... Couldn't give up dairy though. Depending on the source of the dairy, the cows might even be treated better than the rest of us.

Heck, if I could eat a pill or something for all of my nutrition, I would.

 

[myself]

dead animal carcass vs fruits and veggies

i'll take the fruit!

just because we CAN eat anything doesnt mean we SHOULD

eating dead animals is popular, but it isn't easily processed by the human body

dead flesh clogs up the system, produces excessive acid in the body and mucus forms to protect us from the acids...

a diet heavy in acid forming foods like grains, dairy, cooked foods, processed stuff, and animal flesh, is very hard on the body, making one susceptible to disease of every kind.

detox yourselves from the junk food and experience vitality

clog up the body with acidic obstructions and experience constipation

most of us are addicted to our foods. we dont eat for nutrition so much as we eat for emotions.

it can be tough to walk away from destructive eating habits, but if you proceed with love and have patience with yourself, take small steps toward increased health everyday, youll eventually leave the old ways behind.

if you insist on eating meat, at least get the quality stuff that hasnt been injected with hormones and steroids.

when we raise the standard of what we consume, and learn to consume less in general, we may begin to experience greater health and vitality

<3

 

[Y0u]

dead animal carcass vs fruits and veggies

i'll take the fruit!

just because we CAN eat anything doesnt mean we SHOULD

eating dead animals is popular, but it isn't easily processed by the human body

dead flesh clogs up the system, produces excessive acid in the body and mucus forms to protect us from the acids...

a diet heavy in acid forming foods like grains, dairy, cooked foods, processed stuff, and animal flesh, is very hard on the body, making one susceptible to disease of every kind.

detox yourselves from the junk food and experience vitality

clog up the body with acidic obstructions and experience constipation

most of us are addicted to our foods. we dont eat for nutrition so much as we eat for emotions.

it can be tough to walk away from destructive eating habits, but if you proceed with love and have patience with yourself, take small steps toward increased health everyday, youll eventually leave the old ways behind.

if you insist on eating meat, at least get the quality stuff that hasnt been injected with hormones and steroids.

when we raise the standard of what we consume, and learn to consume less in general, we may begin to experience greater health and vitality

<3

"Flesh free" is the next marketing phrase.

 

[Tzimzai]

One day when they perfect in vitro meat I will be able to eat guilt free. Until then, I can't help it, I start feeling sick and my hunger never gets satisfied if I completely cut out meat.

 

[Dohavior]

There was some interesting ecology I read before about the relationships of food and how our role as an apex predator has reached a new meta game than the other apex predators. This relationship yields new responsibilities to sustain ourselves. The prospects of pruning and terraforming this world and others have interesting repercussions.

B vitamins, fat, and lactic acid are all good for the body. As far as meat goes I like it very much. I've eaten haggis made from the umbilical and placenta right from my mother's womb. I have killed, dressed, and eaten animals that have stolen feed from my pets. On one occasion I slit a deer's throat after it trashed the front end of my best friend's car. He really enjoyed that nice home cooked venison steak after that life threatening ordeal. I remember when I was even younger catching fish, frogs, ducks just about anything. It was such a nice dining experience sitting around slicing the meat while strategizing with my cousins how we were going to cook it up and hopefully catch a few more. It was very insightful appraising the carcass and using one's empathy to track its life cycle.

I think what dissatisfies INFJ is this concept of urbanized meat all distracting from more fulfilling interaction. It is that Inferior Se the reason we are having this conversation right now you want to get right in there and see things for yourself. INFJ are quite good with animals, got that Tertiary Ti so would make a great hunter and provider.

 

[Reanbell]

I've been a vegetarian for almost a year, and eventually I want to make the transition to vegan. The problem is finding out all the things I can eat, finding all of the recipes, affording these new foods and recipes, and finding a place that actually SELLS the necessary food items. There is a Whole Foods but it almost an hour and a half away and I can't be going that far every time I need to eat. Because lets be honest, Whole Foods is spendy. I don't mind cutting out dairy but the problem is that buying almond milk in bulk is faaar more expensive than buying a gallon of milk. Otherwise... I'd be okay with making the switch.

As it currently stands though, no meat. Have I had cravings? Yeah, I won't lie about that. Because I do like the taste of it and it's what I've grown up eating. But is it to the point where it makes me miserable? Nope! I have a small craving and then I eat something else I find equally delicious. And there are plenty of things that are delicious that don't contain meat (some people find this shocking xD). People seem to think vegetarians only eat green leaves and carrots... there's so much more than that.

I chose not to eat meat completely for personal reasons. I've always adored animals, been for animal awareness, and when I think of cows (who really are like large dogs when you get to know them) dying so cruelly I don't want to eat them. It sounds strange but I almost feel guilty. I love pigs too - people say who cares, they're the dumbest animals. It's so incorrect - pigs are actually extremely intelligent and gosh, I never understood "It's dumb so that makes it okay to kill it" mentality.

There's just so much messed up with the food industry and how we actually get our meat... I just don't want to support it anymore. Dairy is just as bad. However I don't shun people who eat meat or drink milk. This is what people are used to and it's not their fault for how these industries are. It is just an unfortunate dark truth people push far back into their minds so they can enjoy their meals.

 

[Lerxst]

I've been a vegetarian for almost a year, and eventually I want to make the transition to vegan. The problem is finding out all the things I can eat, finding all of the recipes, affording these new foods and recipes, and finding a place that actually SELLS the necessary food items. There is a Whole Foods but it almost an hour and a half away and I can't be going that far every time I need to eat. Because lets be honest, Whole Foods is spendy. I don't mind cutting out dairy but the problem is that buying almond milk in bulk is faaar more expensive than buying a gallon of milk. Otherwise... I'd be okay with making the switch.

As it currently stands though, no meat. Have I had cravings? Yeah, I won't lie about that. Because I do like the taste of it and it's what I've grown up eating. But is it to the point where it makes me miserable? Nope! I have a small craving and then I eat something else I find equally delicious. And there are plenty of things that are delicious that don't contain meat (some people find this shocking xD). People seem to think vegetarians only eat green leaves and carrots... there's so much more than that.

I chose not to eat meat completely for personal reasons. I've always adored animals, been for animal awareness, and when I think of cows (who really are like large dogs when you get to know them) dying so cruelly I don't want to eat them. It sounds strange but I almost feel guilty. I love pigs too - people say who cares, they're the dumbest animals. It's so incorrect - pigs are actually extremely intelligent and gosh, I never understood "It's dumb so that makes it okay to kill it" mentality.

There's just so much messed up with the food industry and how we actually get our meat... I just don't want to support it anymore. Dairy is just as bad. However I don't shun people who eat meat or drink milk. This is what people are used to and it's not their fault for how these industries are. It is just an unfortunate dark truth people push far back into their minds so they can enjoy their meals.

It really doesn't take much food to supplement a vegan diet. Actually, when I first went vegan, most of the "fake" foods tasted... well... fake. Soy milk was God awful, vegan cheese was like eating rubber and margarines all tasted over-processed. I just gave it up entirely and my meals were mostly whatever "whole" foods we could find. Cooked with a lot of olive oil, still ate pasta, learned how to be generous with garlic, onions and herbs. Familiarized myself with various beans and legume cooking.

And started reading labels to figure out which foods were 'accidentally vegan" - lots of generic store brands are since it's cheaper to use margarine instead of butter, or water and soy lecithin instead of milk.

Overall, it's actually much, much, much cheaper to be a vegan than eat meat or dairy. The most expensive staples people buy in a store are meat and milk. How many times do people complain about the price of milk or the price of ground beef going up? Not if you're vegan! Rice, beans and lentils pretty much stay the same price no matter what

BTW - here's a recipe just o finish this post off right:

Chickpea Tuna-less

Drain and empty two cans of chickpeas into large mixing bowl
Add 1 cup of cooked rice
Dice 1/2 an onion and add to bowl
Chop 2-3 stalks of celery and add it to the bowl
Add 2 tablespoons of chopped pimentos to bowl
Add 1/2 cup of Vegenaise to bowl -- alternative - whip 1/2 cup of silken tofu in blender, adding 1 tsp salt, vinegar, powdered mustard and nutritional yeast)
Crush 1 sheet of Nori or about 1/2 cup of some type of dried, crushed seaweed
Mash everything with a potato masher until chickpeas and rice are semi-smooth in texture
Final result should be about tuna texture but spreadable

Congrats on making a Tuna-less salad!

 

[Lerxst]

There was some interesting ecology I read before about the relationships of food and how our role as an apex predator has reached a new meta game than the other apex predators. This relationship yields new responsibilities to sustain ourselves. The prospects of pruning and terraforming this world and others have interesting repercussions.

B vitamins, fat, and lactic acid are all good for the body. As far as meat goes I like it very much. I've eaten haggis made from the umbilical and placenta right from my mother's womb. I have killed, dressed, and eaten animals that have stolen feed from my pets. On one occasion I slit a deer's throat after it trashed the front end of my best friend's car. He really enjoyed that nice home cooked venison steak after that life threatening ordeal. I remember when I was even younger catching fish, frogs, ducks just about anything. It was such a nice dining experience sitting around slicing the meat while strategizing with my cousins how we were going to cook it up and hopefully catch a few more. It was very insightful appraising the carcass and using one's empathy to track its life cycle.

I think what dissatisfies INFJ is this concept of urbanized meat all distracting from more fulfilling interaction. It is that Inferior Se the reason we are having this conversation right now you want to get right in there and see things for yourself. INFJ are quite good with animals, got that Tertiary Ti so would make a great hunter and provider.

Alright... let's take a bug, let's say a spider. If you threaten or harm that spider do they not retreat, protect/defend themselves and do whatever is in their means to not die? It's safe to say that to that spider, the most valuable thing they have is their very life.

Now look at you and your friend. A car accident is a major ideal, even life-threatening. I've known people who have died form hitting or swerving for deer. It's safe to say that after that event, you and your friend realized how valuable your lives are to you as well.

So now that we've covered that the life of that spider is the mos valuable thing to that spider, as is your life to you, what gives you the right to decide to take the life of something else? Yes, I am saying that your life and that spider's life hold equal value.

If you want to look at it in size, take the life of the deer you killed, or the ducks, fish or frogs you ate. They valued all their lives just as much as you value yours.

I get annoyed at the self-righteous hunter/rancher types that think because they kill their own, it makes their meat eating somehow, better. I can forgive the person who buys the factory farmed steak form the store without thinking a bout the background behind the cow that was slaughtered. What I can't forgive are the selfish, "holier-than-thou" types that think they are somehow better for killing their own meat. The only thing they prove is their lack of compassion mixed with sociopathic tendencies.