[PAX] Interracial/cultural relationships

[arbygil]

I could say a lot, but I agree with much of what's been said already. To be honest, I've never dated anyone of my same cultural background...mostly because I haven't really grown up with my same cultural background. Even my parents were "weird" as far as their same cultures were concerned.

I have a preference to date outside my so-called culture, and I'd say I identify more with the European culture than I do the US culture. And I absolutely love traveling.

Trufax storytime: I had a fiance who happened to be White (I'm Black, if it really matters, BTW). Things were okay, until I started bugging him to tell his parents about us. We dated for two years and he never told his mother my race until he proposed (because he didn't think it was relevant).

Well, when she found out she hit the roof and he decided to choose his mother instead. Now, there's a whole lotta wrong in that anyway (and honestly? We wouldn't have gone the distance in the long run for other reasons). Still, that incident didn't change my heart. I still have a preference for certain cultures and I love mixing things up. The only thing I'd say is, if the two of you are getting serious, really talk about these things. They may not seem relevant now, but think about it: When you marry someone of a different culture, you're marrying that culture. Everything, good and for ill, about that culture. And your *own* culture may try to disown you because they see you as a "traitor" or some crap.

People always say "that's their problem" but you do have to be strong to recognize that their culture becomes *your* culture, and you may never be accepted by *either* culture again.

If you're ready for that, and you're comfortable with that, then I say you're ready to date and marry interculturally and "interracially." If you're not ready to potentially sacrifice your culture, then don't do it until you are.

But, if you're ready, I think it's the most beautiful, gorgeous, wonderful thing you could do - and you have the potential to teach and educate, and become a bridge to others.

 

[Trifoilum]

never tried any relationships, but as far as PC-ness; it would be politically incorrect if you implicitly said that it's going to be a failure, but you didn't, so relax xD

I think it's going to serve a different set of problems, yes; but then again, that's only expected from a relationship. Even within people of the same race, or the same culture, there's going to be a personal, different kind of quirks from one to another.

 

[Gaze]

I could say a lot, but I agree with much of what's been said already. To be honest, I've never dated anyone of my same cultural background...mostly because I haven't really grown up with my same cultural background. Even my parents were "weird" as far as their same cultures were concerned.

I have a preference to date outside my so-called culture, and I'd say I identify more with the European culture than I do the US culture. And I absolutely love traveling.

I've felt this way for a number of years, but i felt a little weird thinking it. There's the sense that if you show preference for other cultures besides our native culture, that we're somehow denying and betraying our cultural roots. I'm not sure how compatible I feel with other cultures but i've always been interested in learning more about other cultural groups. My best friend is a different race and I feel more comfortable with her than i do persons from my cultural background. However, there'll be things she'll probably never fully understand because we are from different cultural backgrounds.

 

[im_eilwc]

I've never been in a relationship... but I've had many 'suitors', all of which being of the same culture and it never turned out the way THEY wanted it to. It was me. My fault. I just have the highest expectations of people and especially of myself and I guess for the past few years I've been more interested in different cultural backgrounds, rather than my own.
It's unusual but my first crush as a teen was non-asian.. He had a crush on me too and I felt so much more comfortable with him..
For some reason, asian parents I know respect non-asian with asian relationships..
Too bad that guy already has a girlfriend

 

[Reon]

I've felt this way for a number of years, but i felt a little weird thinking it. There's the sense that if you show preference for other cultures besides our native culture, that we're somehow denying and betraying our cultural roots. I'm not sure how compatible I feel with other cultures but i've always been interested in learning more about other cultural groups. My best friend is a different race and I feel more comfortable with her than i do persons from my cultural background. However, there'll be things she'll probably never fully understand because we are from different cultural backgrounds.

I've always wondered if there are things that people of the same cultural background won't mutually understand/agree with. There's an established culture and then there's how we interpret it. I guess I'm wondering if it's truly possible for someone else to understand a culture in the same way that one person does, even if it IS the same culture.

 

[Gaze]

I've always wondered if there are things that people of the same cultural background won't mutually understand/agree with. There's an established culture and then there's how we interpret it. I guess I'm wondering if it's truly possible for someone else to understand a culture in the same way that one person does, even if it IS the same culture.

good point. we each have our own individual approach or relationship to a culture. There are many things in my culture i cannot relate to because i didn't have the experiences many did especially when comparing life in the country to life in the city. The larger culture looks at these qualities as a flaw but others may view this as a welcome difference. When there are personal or personality differences with the larger culture, it's even harder to connect with.

 

[arbygil]

I've always wondered if there are things that people of the same cultural background won't mutually understand/agree with. There's an established culture and then there's how we interpret it. I guess I'm wondering if it's truly possible for someone else to understand a culture in the same way that one person does, even if it IS the same culture.

Oh, of course not. We're always reshaping/remaking culture, and we will always disagree even if we're in the same culture (case in point: Liberals vs Conservatives, sexual orientation, intelligence levels, gender specific issues, etc).

But that gap widens when you throw specific things in the mix - things that other cultures have *no* idea what X-culture is talking about or saying, and they have no desire to understand it. Then you have bias and stereotypical behavior that weakens cultural understanding.

I personally think it's more difficult to understand a completely different culture from your own, then it is to understand a culture that is basically yours, but with key differences. At least there's a starting point for understanding in those situations. Or there could be, if both sides are willing to learn from each other.

 

[Nixie]

Of course there is also a bit of advantage to the individual that is not a member of the dominant Western culture (speaking of USA here) because that individual had already had to learn to exsist/work within a culture that is outside their own. I find that I filter things out that are contrary to my own culture but am perfectly capable of navigating Western culture. Not only would someone from a different cultural background have little to no knowledge of my Native ways but I would suspect that they wouldn't be as culturally flexible. There are things within Western culture that I find distasteful and odd but I have had to learn to adapt, the same is not true of someone who belongs to the dominant culture.

 

[arbygil]

Of course there is also a bit of advantage to the individual that is not a member of the dominant Western culture (speaking of USA here) because that individual had already had to learn to exsist/work within a culture that is outside their own. I find that I filter things out that are contrary to my own culture but am perfectly capable of navigating Western culture. Not only would someone from a different cultural background have little to no knowledge of my Native ways but I would suspect that they wouldn't be as culturally flexible. There are things within Western culture that I find distasteful and odd but I have had to learn to adapt, the same is not true of someone who belongs to the dominant culture.

Very true. We hold a type of "dual-citizenship"...and we understand different cultural languages as well.

Which is kind of interesting, if you think about it.

I wonder if any sociologists have pondered that aspect of cultural relations...?

 

[Bloom]

There are no real races... or divisions. People are people.

you two look very nice together so cute

Me and my husband are from different cultures and different religions, I don't feel much differences in our lives, maybe it is because we have the same personalities..

 

[Gaze]

I think that it's difficult to date outside one's culture because there are some things which are unique to one's own culture that would not be understood or accepted by another. You'll have spend some time learning about the culture and the person to get a reasonable grasp of how to understand them. Sometimes, things interpreted as individual differences are actually cultural differences, and vice versa. On the other hand, dating someone from the same culture can cause couples to be complacent and reinforce existing ways of thinking common in a culture that may not be beneficial or healthy for the relationship.

One of the biggest issues with dating across cultures or across diverse cultural experiences is misunderstandings and the unwillingness to see things from the other perspective. Personality trait appreciated and valued in one culture may be demeaned or seen as a sign of weakness in other, and vice versa. So, that's one of the difficulties with communicating across cultures.

 

[#@&5&49]

I was raised in a multiracial and multicultural family. Almost all of my friendships and romantic relationships have crossed racial and cultural lines. This has pros and cons. Pro: I've had many diverse racial and cultural experiences. Con: I don't fit into any one racial or cultural group. I am a racial and cultural nomad.

 

[Elegant Winter]

I imagine children of interracial marriages have a hard time fitting in (as Sadie said). That and I remember reading an article that suggested biracial children are much more likely to have identity issues, though I don't remember exactly the language they used. It's been a while since I read that article and I don't remember the specifics, but it's really just common sense.

Also, a lot of liberals talk about how Western societies are multicultural, but they're not. They're Western societies that have imported other races/cultures/religions from wherever, but our laws/institutions/education/whatever are all thoroughly Western. We do not have multicultural societies. We have multiple races/cultures/religions within thoroughly Western societies and that produces an enormous amount of tension/division/resentment.

Actual multiculturalism would be a complete disaster.

 

[the]

....dating someone from the same culture can cause couples to be complacent and reinforce existing ways of thinking common in a culture that may not be beneficial or healthy for the relationship.

Such as what?


EDIT


Reason I ask is that it just sounds like a generic appeal to diversity but doesn't seem based in reality.

 

[Elegant Winter]

Such as what?

I'm curious too.

 

[brightmoon]

Also, a lot of liberals talk about how Western societies are multicultural, but they're not. They're Western societies that have imported other races/cultures/religions from wherever, but our laws/institutions/education/whatever are all thoroughly Western. We do not have multicultural societies. We have multiple races/cultures/religions within thoroughly Western societies and that produces an enormous amount of tension/division/resentment.

I don't really understand the point you are trying to make. The society I live in is a multicultural one. We respect the other cultures, and co-exist with the other cultures, and we live together. Of course the other cultures are imported. If by thoroughly Western, you mean the framework of laws and institutions then yes this true. Why do think this creates tension/divisions/resentment. Everyone know the most most successful civilizations throughout history and to this day have been multi-ethnic and multilingual. Attempts to "purify" societies of their "foreign" elements have always been failures and have ended poorly.

 

[Elegant Winter]

I don't really understand the point you are trying to make. The society I live in is a multicultural one. We respect the other cultures, and co-exist with the other cultures, and we live together. Of course the other cultures are imported. If by thoroughly Western, you mean the framework of laws and institutions then yes this true. Everyone know the most most successful civilizations throughout history and to this day have been multi-ethnic and multilingual. Attempts to "purify" societies of their "foreign" elements have always been failures and have ended poorly.

Firstly, my point is that the other cultures are only superficially present in Western society. That is obvious. The framework, as you said, is thoroughly Western. Also, the legal/institutional framework of a Western country is normally broad enough to accommodate most religions and most cultures, though I don't think it should since doing so will eventually change the framework itself.

Furthermore, there are no elements of African/Middle Eastern/Asian cultures in the broader Canadian community, are there? No, it's highly localized and so if there are some small cultural elements transplanted from their home country they remain in these small locales and it fails to affect the broader Canadian community. How can you call that multiculturalism?

"Why do think this creates tension/divisions/resentment?"

Take a look at African-Americans in the United States. They've been here for hundreds of years - yes, oppressed for a while - but very large groups, probably a majority, still haven't integrated. They have a very different and often directly opposed shared history and collective identity. How can you have two peoples who are so different within the same space without tension? And the division is obvious. There is division based on racial lines in most societies.

I dislike bringing up personal experience, but I lived in Baltimore (majority black) as a very pale white person so I grew up with the reality of race forced down my throat. I know many others don't have the luxury of such extensive first-hand experience, which means they lack the foresight in seeing what's coming their way in the future in regard to importing millions of foreigners, but it should still be apparent through the wonders of statistics that the majority of these migrants are not adding anything to Western society. In fact, if you were to look up statistics regarding these things you'd very quickly find that blacks/Hispanics are much, much more likely to be on welfare, commit crimes, etc, which is corrosive to the peace, prosperity, social trust, solidarity and so on of Western countries.

I have no doubt that a lot of Germans who live in areas in Germany with large Muslim populations are already experiencing what I experienced growing up and it horrifies me. Some migrants are docile and agreeable, of course; migrants from East Asia are typically this way, for example. They aren't the ones I'm talking about and they represent a small minority of overall migrants.

Everyone know the most most successful civilizations throughout history and to this day have been multi-ethnic and multilingual.

I'm sure you're referring to the Roman Empire, which is quite amusing since the Roman Empire forcefully subjugated these other cultures and Romanized the hell out of them. The Romans also committed multiple genocides. Would you like to comment on that as well?

Additionally, it's more that these "successful civilizations" did so much conquering that their empires encompassed many different regions/areas and so consequently they were comprised of many different cultures. I'm sure, like the Romans, they enforced their will and demanded whatever they wished of the vanquished.

Oh, and I can't even bring up racial differences because I'll be banned, so I'm handicapped here.

 

[brightmoon]

Also, the legal/institutional framework of a Western country is normally broad enough to accommodate most religions and most cultures, though I don't think it should since doing so will eventually change the framework itse

Why do you think the framework will be changed? You have no evidence for this assertion.

Furthermore, there are no elements of African/Middle Eastern/Asian cultures in the broader Canadian community, are there? No, it's highly localized and so if there are some small cultural elements transplanted from their home country they remain in these small locales and it fails to affect the broader Canadian community. How can you call that multiculturalism?

Of course Canadian society has changed because these other cultures exist here. No culture that is not dead remains static.

Take a look at African-Americans in the United States. They've been here for hundreds of years - yes, oppressed for a while - but very large groups, probably a majority, still haven't integrated

What do mean by integrated? Surely the experience of African-Americans brought to North America as slaves and oppressed for generations is not the same as people who immigrated here of their own free will? BTW African Americans continue to be oppressed to this day. Racial discrimination is real and it puzzling me why you don't recognize that.

The other parts of your argument make no sense to me. Plenty of immigrants in their time, first the Irish then the South and East European were derided as worthless and unable to make contributions to society. It all turned out to untrue. Now you say the East Asian immigrants are the "good ones" and the Hispanics and Muslims are the "bad ones"

Yes the Romans were not saints, they committed genocide and did all kinds of heinous crimes to maintain the Empire. They also understood that they had to absorb the new cultures they conquered in order for their civilization to survive. In more recent time we have seen the consequences of so called "ethnic cleansing" and where that leads. My original point still stands. I wasn’t only talking about the Roman Empire, you can add the Rashidun Caliphate and the Mongol Empire in there as well.

 

[Elegant Winter]

Why do you think the framework will be changed? You have no evidence for this assertion.

Of course Canadian society has changed because these other cultures exist here. No culture that is not dead remains static.

What do mean by integrated? Surely the experience of African-Americans brought to North America as slaves and oppressed for generations is not the same as people who immigrated here of their own free will? BTW African Americans continue to be oppressed to this day. Racial discrimination is real and it puzzling me why you don't recognize that.

The other parts of your argument make no sense to me. Plenty of immigrants in their time, first the Irish then the South and East European were derided as worthless and unable to make contributions to society. It all turned out to untrue. Now you say the East Asian immigrants are the "good ones" and the Hispanics and Muslims are the "bad ones"

Yes the Romans were not saints, they committed genocide and did all kinds of heinous crimes to maintain the Empire. They also understood that they had to absorb the new cultures they conquered in order for their civilization to survive. In more recent time we have seen the consequences of so called "ethnic cleansing" and where that leads. My original point still stands. I wasn’t only talking about the Roman Empire, you can add the Rashidun Caliphate and the Mongol Empire in there as well.

Why do you think the framework will be changed? You have no evidence for this assertion.

It will reflect the changes in demographics we're observing. Once, say, only thirty percent (just estimating here) of Canada is white you'll - assuming you're white - be an oppressed minority. You can see what happens when whites become a minority in South Africa. In short, they're a small percentage of the population who own most of the industry/wealth and are savagely and unfairly targeted by both the government and the non-white citizens. You can read about South Africa on your own. There's a lot to be learned from what's going on there. Why? Because at this rate whites will be a minority in every Western country within the century, just as in South Africa.

It goes without saying that once such a large percentage of the population is non-white the government - which represents the people - will change dramatically.

Of course Canadian society has changed because these other cultures exist here. No culture that is not dead remains static.

No culture remains entirely static, sure, but who's really changing it? White liberals who want to appear accommodating/open-minded/progressive or the other cultures themselves? If it's white liberals then it's not genuine multiculturalism either.

What do mean by integrated? Surely the experience of African-Americans brought to North America as slaves and oppressed for generations is not the same as people who immigrated here of their own free will? BTW African Americans continue to be oppressed to this day. Racial discrimination is real and it puzzling me why you don't recognize that.

Still, whether an immigrant comes here of their own free will or not is irrelevant. What's relevant is what their history/culture/religion/race is. Why? You can't assimilate just anyone. With the Irish and even the Italians it was possible because there was enough shared history/culture/religion/race (debatable point, I know). With Africans, especially Africans we enslaved and brought over, it's very different, yes. It's yet another barrier to integration.

Also, African-Americans are no longer oppressed. Don't be absurd. They're treated as royalty these days and their "culture" (if it can even be called that) is artificially elevated. It's disgusting. Rap music shouldn't exist. Ghettos shouldn't exist. Gang culture shouldn't exist. I know you're probably thoroughly brainwashed on the matter though, so I'm not going to press. I know it's futile.

The other parts of your argument make no sense to me. Plenty of immigrants in their time, first the Irish then the South and East European were derided as worthless and unable to make contributions to society. It all turned out to untrue. Now you say the East Asian immigrants are the "good ones" and the Hispanics and Muslims are the "bad ones"

I have to censor myself quite heavily here unfortunately, but let's just say that some cultures are clearly superior to others. Muslim "culture" (in other words Islam) is anti-civilization and Muslims should be banned from the West. Hispanics, while nowhere near as bad, still have their own country/culture/identity and all of that, so they should stay there. Why invade our country and bring a future civil war with them? Why allow them to do that? If you pay attention you'll see assertions of Mexican identity all over the place. They don't want to assimilate either. Some do and a lot of them are decent people, sure, but they're a separate group and thus they should live in a separate country.

Yes the Romans were not saints, they committed genocide and did all kinds of heinous crimes to maintain the Empire. They also understood that they had to absorb the new cultures they conquered in order for their civilization to survive. In more recent time we have seen the consequences of so called "ethnic cleansing" and where that leads. My original point still stands. I wasn’t only talking about the Roman Empire, you can add the Rashidun Caliphate and the Mongol Empire in there as well.

Aren't the Mongols responsible for killing tens of millions of people? How can you parade them around as an example of "successful multicultural civilization"? They weren't even remotely civilized. They were barbarians. They were the epitome of barbarians.

 

[brightmoon]

[MENTION=12656]Elegant Winter[/MENTION] I fundamentally disagree with you on every point you have made, but there is no point in taking the time to tear apart your arguments. Most of them are based on assertions and value judgements that are baseless. We could continue, but it likely won't end well, its much better to say. I disagree with you, and move on.