INTP/INFJ derailment discussion

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*Nothing like making an inside joke to yourself*
 
Maikl Jexocuha said:
and my questioning his knowledge of the difference between phenotypes and genotypes led him to reveal himself as a "Nazi". I just couldn't do it anymore.
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Bwahhahaha :tearsofjoy:

Sorry but this made me laugh out loud.
Believing such nonsense ("our race is genetically superior, theirs inferior") is laughable.
I hope you explained to him why eugenics isn't popular anymore.

I also hope he some day changes his ways. I'm laughing, but it's really quite sad.

Asa said:
He gave a typically honest, concise criticism about someone lacking basic technical skills. The criticism was justified because it affected him. He then said, "Fuck, I'm an asshole. I'm right, but I'm an asshole."
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Ha. Relatable.
The most important lesson I've learned about being right:
If you're right and you're respectful in your delivery, people will remember you were right.
If you're right and you're a dick about it, people will remember you were an asshole.
 
In terms of the dichotomies, I'm sure that I vs E is real, and N vs S is real, and in terms of neuro-chemical correlates they might actually be the same thing (I=N and E=S). These exist in a zero-sum relationship such that having more of one necessarily means having less of the other.

As for T vs F, though, there seems to be no reason whatever why their associated functions can't be equally developed in the same brain. That is, it's not a zero-sum dichotomy, and in fact I would question the use of the term 'dichotomy' in the first place. What's so 'opposite' about them in any case?

It doesn't seem to me that T precludes F in any way, or vice versa, or that they are inherently opposed in any decision-making process.

If we're talking about @Asa, there's no question that she could easily type as INFJ or INTJ, even INFP or INTP. For me, it's only really meaningful to say 'IN' and leave it at that.

Having said all that, there is a certain distinctiveness to particular types that give me pause - INTPs especially. Why are they so nihilistic?
 
I was thinking about Ni today. Something that @sassafras said in regards to Ren's type really made me think - namely that Ni is not so focused on itself than Ti/Fi.

And it's true, I find myself thinking about myself a lot - more than anything else. But today I was really sick and tired of it, and just wanted to take a step back. So I kinda simulated Ni - Se.

I don't know how a dom Ni would do it, but the way I did it it's just to start by being really present in the moment, I observed people around me, the way they are dressed, then I focused more on the room, architecture, colors, design, technology. It was such a relaxing experience to be in the moment.

And then I just let my mind wonder and be playful, with no attention being put on utility of such experiments. One rule I wanted to follow is not to focus on myself. I can think about anything, but it had to be about the outside world.

To focus on the outside world (via either Te or Fe domain) was really liberating. I immediately felt a lot lighter when I did it. I was actually having a bit of a bad day, and what I usually do in such situations is to focus on myself even more. Which never works to bring me out of the slump.

I don't know where I am going with this anyway. :grinning:

Perhaps other can share there experience of Ni. It's just seem to be such a relaxing and calm function, compared to my nagging Ti.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
In terms of the dichotomies, I'm sure that I vs E is real, and N vs S is real, and in terms of neuro-chemical correlates they might actually be the same thing (I=N and E=S). These exist in a zero-sum relationship such that having more of one necessarily means having less of the other.

As for T vs F, though, there seems to be no reason whatever why their associated functions can't be equally developed in the same brain. That is, it's not a zero-sum dichotomy, and in fact I would question the use of the term 'dichotomy' in the first place. What's so 'opposite' about them in any case?

It doesn't seem to me that T precludes F in any way, or vice versa, or that they are inherently opposed in any decision-making process.

If we're talking about @Asa, there's no question that she could easily type as INFJ or INTJ, even INFP or INTP. For me, it's only really meaningful to say 'IN' and leave it at that.

Having said all that, there is a certain distinctiveness to particular types that give me pause - INTPs especially. Why are they so nihilistic?
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Nihilism occurs when systems you construct in your mind fail in real life. You build something up in such a way that the let down ripples far beyond just the one system or even one anomaly in that sub-subsystem. INTPs build models in their heads constantly with what they perceive as accuracy and when one fails, their intuition is so broad it cascades to all other systems, and they think if this fails, then mostly everything else does too. INTPs look for truth completely separate from emotions (literally Ti and Fe are polar), and we are aware or grow increasingly aware that there are only so many actual truths and everything else is built off of those constraints

The constraints are the only boundaries so it’s hard to believe in anything else
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
As for T vs F, though, there seems to be no reason whatever why their associated functions can't be equally developed in the same brain. That is, it's not a zero-sum dichotomy, and in fact I would question the use of the term 'dichotomy' in the first place. What's so 'opposite' about them in any case?

It doesn't seem to me that T precludes F in any way, or vice versa, or that they are inherently opposed in any decision-making process.
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Maybe this is more about Te and Fe, but what about the following situation. You are the manager of a business, and one employee isn't able to fulfill his duties. Do you:
1) Fire him because his lack of productivity is affecting the business revenues?
2) Keep him on the team, because you want to help him and know he'll have a hard time finding other employment?

Aren't they fundamentally opposed, in this context? It boils down to what we are taking into account to solve the situation. One isn't necessarily more selfish than the other too, because if you go with 2), maybe the business keeps doing badly, and this affects all other employees.

Deleted member 16771 said:
Having said all that, there is a certain distinctiveness to particular types that give me pause - INTPs especially. Why are they so nihilistic?
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Probably because they easily deconstruct everything, and easily arrive to the conclusion that there is no inherent meaning to existence.
 
Maikl Jexocuha said:
I have suspicions that Ti, esp., is an inherently "alienating"(and dare I say [es]'strange') function - due to it's need for internalized certainty and unequivocal distinction. Ti is the bedrock of "separation". It's the cause of madness for INFJs(e.g. Ni-Ti loop). And I think without extroverted input(via Ne or Se), Ti has a way of making someone a little 'deranged' and not able to see it. I dunno - I could be wrong, but just my suspicious opinion...
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Yeah, something like that.

Ti it's also too "objective" and detached. Let's take elite sport for example. What is the realistic chance of anyone getting to the top of their sport, let's say to NBA? It has to be less than 0.01%.

But even if objectively chance is small, it's still good for every individual to be a bit irrational and think they can be the one in the 10.000 that will make it. Some irrational hope/belief is healthy and keeps you moving forward.

Hope/belief/faith are very foreign concepts to Ti. Well, at least to me.
 
java said:
Maybe this is more about Te and Fe, but what about the following situation. You are the manager of a business, and one employee isn't able to fulfill his duties. Do you:
1) Fire him because his lack of productivity is affecting the business revenues?
2) Keep him on the team, because you want to help him and know he'll have a hard time finding other employment?

Aren't they fundamentally opposed, in this context? It boils down to what are we taking into account to solve the situation. One isn't necessarily more selfish than the other too, because if you go with 2), maybe the business keeps doing badly, and this affects all other employees.
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No they're not opposed, except in the way you've posed the question. 'Feeling' could be expressed on behalf of anyone in this situation - the other colleagues (Fe - group), the underperforming employee (Fi - individual) - and it's just an arbitrary choice on what 'feeling basis' the decision will be made.
 
ClevelandINTP said:
Nihilism occurs when systems you construct in your mind fail in real life. You build something up in such a way that the let down ripples far beyond just the one system or even one anomaly in that sub-subsystem. INTPs build models in their heads constantly with what they perceive as accuracy and when one fails, their intuition is so broad it cascades to all other systems, and they think if this fails, then mostly everything else does too. INTPs look for truth completely separate from emotions (literally Ti and Fe are polar), and we are aware or grow increasingly aware that there are only so many actual truths and everything else is built off of those constraints

The constraints are the only boundaries so it’s hard to believe in anything else
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That and we get dumped on or threatened with metaphorical bans when we speak a “truth” that is possibly true or the most true but no one wants to hear it. This can wear someone down when they face so many “untruths” or “lesser truths”. We are iconoclasts
 
ClevelandINTP said:
That and we get dumped on or threatened with metaphorical bans when we speak a “truth” that is possibly true or the most true but no one wants to hear it. This can wear someone down when they face so many “untruths” or “lesser truths”. We are iconoclasts
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I am sorry I hurt your feelers Cleve
 
ClevelandINTP said:
That and we get dumped on or threatened with metaphorical bans when we speak a “truth” that is possibly true or the most true but no one wants to hear it. This can wear someone down when they face so many “untruths” or “lesser truths”. We are iconoclasts
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Jesus Christ, dude. :tearsofjoy: Drop it.

So, the answer to the question 'why are INTPs nihilistic?' is 'Wyote'. Gotcha.
 
Maikl Jexocuha said:
I have suspicions that Ti, esp., is an inherently "alienating"(and dare I say [es]'strange') function - due to it's need for internalized certainty and unequivocal distinction. Ti is the bedrock of "separation". It's the cause of madness for INFJs(e.g. Ni-Ti loop). And I think without extroverted input(via Ne or Se), Ti has a way of making someone a little 'deranged' and not able to see it. I dunno - I could be wrong, but just my suspicious opinion...
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Honestly, I think INFJs have it worse with Ti in the third slot paired with Ni. That has to be super bizarre and maddening to cope with at times
 
ClevelandINTP said:
That and we get dumped on or threatened with metaphorical bans when we speak a “truth” that is possibly true or the most true but no one wants to hear it. This can wear someone down when they face so many “untruths” or “lesser truths”. We are iconoclasts
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Cleve needs a good hug *hugs Cleve*
 
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