Wait, before we continue on this path of reasoning, how did you come to the conclusion that the root of greed is fear?
I've not heard of this "Zindell" - but I sure do like their quotes!
I'm not into calling things good and evil. Life is lived in the grey areas and "good" and "evil" seem too black&white....
I do agree the root of grasping/clinging/greed is fear. It can usually be found at the base of anger and hatred too.
The fear I will not survive drives me crazy.... In other words - I do harmful acts when I'm reacting from the position of fear. Harmful acts to others - maybe. Definitely harmful acts to myself. :nod: It holds me down - keeps me frozen(in fear) - blocks my energy - damps down my creative thinking ability.
I also agree that Fear is the other side of Love.
Every day that I show compassionate love to myself while noting my current fear state - is a victory over my Fear. It's a constant struggle...
I can't help it but I am cracking up right now because this discussion is making me think of the movie Donnie Darko.
That is interesting. I will give it more thought. I think I see where you are coming from.I think the opposite of love is apathy
" "
However what enables things to continue is ignorance, so the real battle is against ignorance.
The power elites big fear is that we will all wake up from their spell and overthrow them so they are making preparations for this event because they know more and more people are waking up.
Thank you, very true.My sense is that one cannot ascertain cause and effect in a uni-verse of no-thing-ness by means of dualism in thought.
cheers,
Ian
the part i bolded seems backwards. it's the love of money that creates greed, not the other way around.
therefore, the root of greed is money, not fear.
I still think that the love of money comes from greed but I will think about it more. I can see how the love of money and greed work perpetuate each other. They are certainly entwined together.
Where do you think that the love of money comes from?
I agree with what you've said. Fear coupled with disinformation and misinformation is constantly used to manage our perceptions and enslave us.
Overcoming ignorance and the lack of self awareness is critical in managing and overcoming fear.
I used to think that ignorance is the root of evil but then I realised that many people choose to be ignorant. You can provide people with information, explain things, prove things, even show them how to use critical thought but people will not accept this information or knowledge if they dont want to believe. Even highly intelligent people. They may not want to go against the staus quo, against their peers, face the lies they have been fed, face themselves, lose face - and all the other fears I mentioned above in response to Odyne's question. Ignorance is bliss for a reason- the truth can be painful and not everyone can handle it.
Sometimes we choose to remain ignorant because we are afraid. We are afraid of the truth and what might find
Yes true but ignorance of our true condition is what leads to the fear you are talking about
Also there is the world of difference between knowing something and truely understanding it.
For example i was involved in a union dispute where i saw how people reacted in different ways. Its at times like that that people show their true colours.
Some recognised the need for unity amongst the workers to resist the oppressive move of the coercive hierarchy whilst some gave into fear and crawled on their bellies to management and licked their jackboots.
Those that gave into fear might have known that unity amongst the workers would have provided the desired response (fairer conditions that didn't compromise the ethics of the workers) on a conscious level because this had been explained to them but they didn't really understand it otherwise they would have agreed to it.
Their failure to truelly understand the opportunity that was presented to them has meant that they are now trapped in an environment in which they are miserable
I see that situation as a microcosm of the wider societal crisis macrocosm that we are all facing at the moment.
People are still appeasing the bankers in the hope that the economy will be rescued. They are failing to understand that the bankers will just keep taking and that is exactly what they are doing. One day everyone will wake up owning nothing but the shirt on their back because all the laws they thought protected them, their rights and their property have been rewritten.
This failure to grasp the wider implications and look at the long game is born out of an ignorance of the truth
Its true that there is a world of difference between knowing something and understanding it. What do you mean when you say ignorance of our true condition? Do you mean the harsh reality of our world with all its coercive power plays and lies? Or do you mean our 'true condition' in terms of our humanity and true self awareness?
What makes you certain that the workers would have agreed and not given into their fear if they had understood? Is it possible that they failed to understand because of fear?
Sorry if we're going around in circles. I do think that ignorance and fear are symbiotic and somewhat hard to separate.
In a sense both
If they had truely understood then they wouldn't have been afraid
You're right we shouldn't waste our energies on such a minor point. You have identified a very real aspect of the human condition which is fear and i don't want to derail a great thread, i just wanted to put in another perspective
You are of course right that all these things blend together and perhaps what some spiritual teachers are doing is blending them even further to the point where light and dark are part of the same thing, distinguishable only when perceived as a duality?
I'm still getting to grips with these concepts myself so i don't have complete understanding....yet!
Phew
Hmm... finally... someone who understands.Fear of trusting others
People are still appeasing the bankers in the hope that the economy will be rescued. They are failing to understand that the bankers will just keep taking and that is exactly what they are doing. One day everyone will wake up owning nothing but the shirt on their back because all the laws they thought protected them, their rights and their property have been rewritten.
I wasn't going to say anything but I decided to do so anyway. I might regret it but here goes: Am I the only one who notices, that quote is one example of fear?
One of the reasons I have "issues" with much of what you post, Muir, is that it is fear-mongering at its finest. Fear based on greed (after all, without greed, one would not care about one's property at all. One would be a lily in the field. Personally, I am not a lily and I do care about my property. I don't think this makes me evil, do you?)
Fear of "the power elite" runs through so many of your posts that I am surprised to see you posting in a way that implies you would like people to be less fearful. Usually you seem to want people to be more fearful and to be convinced management/rich people are out to get them.
It is almost like you normally say "Be Afraid. Be VERY Afraid." and now all of a sudden you're all "Oh, be brave -- and don't compromise! And show solidarity, except not solidarity with management because they are out to get you" Another theme that runs through your posts is "Money! The power elite have it and you are their slave!" If this is not fear and greed, please tell me what it is?
Perhaps the issue is that I do not think rich people or managerial types are automatically evil. (Nor do I think that about poor people) Sometimes they are, to be sure, but more often than not, they are just human, and perfectly aware of the need to work together and compromise.
I am not intending to be confrontational, even though it probably sounds that way. And I was not even going to mention this since I am fairly confident it will result in me being called stupid or a sheep. But I've resigned myself to that inevitability.
I wasn't going to say anything but I decided to do so anyway. I might regret it but here goes: Am I the only one who notices, that quote is one example of fear?
One of the reasons I have "issues" with much of what you post, Muir, is that it is fear-mongering at its finest. Fear based on greed (after all, without greed, one would not care about one's property at all. One would be a lily in the field. Personally, I am not a lily and I do care about my property. I don't think this makes me evil, do you?)
Fear of "the power elite" runs through so many of your posts that I am surprised to see you posting in a way that implies you would like people to be less fearful. Usually you seem to want people to be more fearful and to be convinced management/rich people are out to get them.
It is almost like you normally say "Be Afraid. Be VERY Afraid." and now all of a sudden you're all "Oh, be brave -- and don't compromise! And show solidarity, except not solidarity with management because they are out to get you" Another theme that runs through your posts is "Money! The power elite have it and you are their slave!" If this is not fear and greed, please tell me what it is?
Perhaps the issue is that I do not think rich people or managerial types are automatically evil. (Nor do I think that about poor people) Sometimes they are, to be sure, but more often than not, they are just human, and perfectly aware of the need to work together and compromise.
I am not intending to be confrontational, even though it probably sounds that way. And I was not even going to mention this since I am fairly confident it will result in me being called stupid or a sheep. But I've resigned myself to that inevitability.
Although, I think that Evil is nothing but a label we gave to everything that threatens us or our species and its existence, I think that most of what is perceived as evil stems from selfishness or lack of empathy. Personally, I would say it's more of the latter than the former.
I definitely see how fear and empathy/love can be two powerful motivators of human behavior. And they can come into conflict, for sure.
I agreed that fear was the root of all evil a short time ago but I've been talking it out lately and I'm changing my mind. As has been said, it's just not that black and white. Fear can protect us and give us strength. So can love. And both can cause us to make mistakes. But they don't really happen in isolation do they? One tends to come with the other.
I think both are valid.
Last time I thought about this, I concluded that ignorance is the root of all evil. Ignorance and/or laziness.
Greed is more or less ignoring the fact that you don't need that stuff.
I think of the evil that men do and then think that if they would actually think, they probably wouldn't do such evil.
Fear is being too lazy to be courageous enough to overcome said fear.
Fear of truth is really just deliberate ignorance of truth, too lazy to handle the truth.Etc.
Fear of trusting someone. That's a hard one. I guess, if I don't trust someone, I just don't trust that person. Fear or being afraid to trust someone else... I guess it is quite abstract.
I guess I don't get it.
Ignorance and laziness, it is convenient. Maybe convenience is the root of all evil.
Slavery was/is convenient. Stealing things is convenient if you have no money. Randomly murdering people isn't convenient... Where does that evil come from?
Am I defining evil wrong here?
I should go sleep