Is fear the root of all evil?

this is only temporary said:
I wasn't going to say anything but I decided to do so anyway. I might regret it but here goes: Am I the only one who notices, that quote is one example of fear?

One of the reasons I have "issues" with much of what you post, Muir, is that it is fear-mongering at its finest. Fear based on greed (after all, without greed, one would not care about one's property at all. One would be a lily in the field. Personally, I am not a lily and I do care about my property. I don't think this makes me evil, do you?)

Fear of "the power elite" runs through so many of your posts that I am surprised to see you posting in a way that implies you would like people to be less fearful. Usually you seem to want people to be more fearful and to be convinced management/rich people are out to get them.

It is almost like you normally say "Be Afraid. Be VERY Afraid." and now all of a sudden you're all "Oh, be brave -- and don't compromise! And show solidarity, except not solidarity with management because they are out to get you" Another theme that runs through your posts is "Money! The power elite have it and you are their slave!" If this is not fear and greed, please tell me what it is?

Perhaps the issue is that I do not think rich people or managerial types are automatically evil. (Nor do I think that about poor people) Sometimes they are, to be sure, but more often than not, they are just human, and perfectly aware of the need to work together and compromise.

I am not intending to be confrontational, even though it probably sounds that way. And I was not even going to mention this since I am fairly confident it will result in me being called stupid or a sheep. But I've resigned myself to that inevitability.
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I don't think you are stupid and I think you're honest and brave to post something that has potential to be confrontational.

I share the concerns that Muir has about the current state of the world. And I am terrified. It is terrifying to know that the people that control our governments, resources, media, economy and culture are corrupt and non caring about the population of the world. It is hard to stay quiet about these matters because the longer we ignore it the more pain will ensue and more freedom will be lost.

I understand what you mean about the 'fear mongering' in Muir's message. Like Kgal mentioned, Fear is one of the key motivators in human behaviour, along with love. I think that his fear is not coming from a place of greed or self preservation, it stems from a place of urgency to protect all people from losing their freedoms. He is not advocating harming anybody, only non violent action to protect ourselves and the world from further exploitation. He also provides links and references so that people can check the validity of the information for themselves.

The fact of the matter is there is there is plenty wrong in the state of the world. 1% (maybe less) of the people in the world control the resources and money. Some people have far too much while others have none. People in 1st world countries are dying of problems related to over eating such as obesity, diabetes and heart disease while billions of people in 3rd world countries are dying of starvation, malnutrition and diarrhoea. Capitalism would have us believe that through exploiting the third world we are giving them a chance to break out of their poverty and capitalise for themselves. This is ironic because the reason the majority of these countries are ravaged by poverty is because of the 1st world's harmful attempts to colonise them and dehumanise the people. Even worse, the 3rd world is in massive debt because of massive corruption and bullying from 1st world nations, and the greed and ignorance of corrupt puppet 3rd world leaders. The west has a long history of removing democratically elected leaders and replacing them with more suitable, pliable leaders that will serve the interests of their keeper. And also, 1st world nations own a vast proportion of the natural resource wealth in 3rd world nations, normally through corrupt deals, intimidation and war.
Even if by some great miracle the third world were able to pay off their debt and embrace the spirit of capitalism, the truth is that they will never be able to have the same lifestyle as the 1st world enjoys now. Our lifestyle is completely unsustainable and unrealistic over the long term. It is one of over explotiation of resources, wastefulness, over consumption, laziness and greed. There is not enough to go around that everyone in the world can consume, waste and pollute as the 1st world does now.

China is better off than the other developing nations because the government still has some autonomy and China still has the luxury of owning its resources. China wants the American dream too, and in recent years there has been a flourishing middle class and people have been consuming like its going out fashion. The reality is that not everyone in China can drive a car and eat like the 1st world does though because there is simply not that much to go around and the environment cannot survive so much exploitation and pollution. Its just a joke and illogical thinking that everyone in China and India can one day have the same lifestyle we have.

The reason we have these problems is because people are greedy and lazy because they are ignorant and fearful. The people in the 1st world certainly don't want to give up their way of life. Most of them dont even want to acknowledge that the majority of their meaningless possessions are the products of exploiting developing nations. They want to keep feeling good about themselves and enjoying the whitebread life of convenience that they work so hard to maintain. We do this at the expense of others.

Personally I do think that the love of money and greed is 'evil'. If someone is rich they have too much. And others have none. I doubt that the majority of rich people made there money through hardwork. I would wager it was through going to the right schools, knowing the right people, exploiting others and being ruthless. And then theres all the people that are rich via inheritance. There is the good fortune of being born in the right family, the right suburb, the right city, the right country. I dont hate rich people, I feel sorry for them because they are just as much a victim of their culture and environment as poor people. Rich people cannot possibly have any real perspective of the nature of life for the majority of the world. They are insulated through ignorance and fear.

I think that when rich people give money to charity its a bit of an ironic joke. Maybe they do it out of genuine concern or perhaps to feel good about themselves, impress their peer, or for the good publicity. If someone that was wealthy actually gave a shit they would undertand that they are a part of the problem of poverty. They are unwilling to make any sacrifices and change the game that made them wealthy so that others in the world can also have enough to thrive as well. And no I dont think that Bill Gates is some great man that has redeemed all his greed because he is vacinating the poor. I have to have some respect for Warren Buffet because at least he undertands that he doesnt pay enough taxes because of our current system, and that money needs to go around for it to be effective. He feels negatively about inhetiting wealth as well.

At the end of the day it comes back down to the fact that we are all so worried about feeding and protecting our own families that we dont care about other families. We are unwilling to consider other options because then we would have to feel bad about ourselves, risk our current prosperity and make lifestyle changes. What people dont undertand is that there is enough to go around if we share, live more efficiently and break out of our climate of fear. We only think that we are unsafe and the world is a dangerous place because we believe it is and have thus created that reality.

This is only temporary-Im not directing my preaching at you. Im just putting foward my perspective. From your previous posts on other threads I know you are already interested in new, fairer business models and growing and sharing food sustainably. I just got carried away with my explanations.

I think that love and fear are the two main places of motivation for humans. We can be fearful, concerned for our security and protecting our own, or we can love and be brave, have trust and faith in others and risk our security for the chance of a better world for everyone. I love my daughter more than life itself, but in truth, she is equally important and no more important than any other child. If she died that would cause the greatest pain, but the pain would be no greater than all the others in the world that lose their children on a daily basis because of where they happen to live in the world. The only difference is that Im personally responsible for her and she is my blood. The best way for me to protect her and love her is to make the entire world as safe as possible for her. I can only do that by loving others, trusting them and working with them to make a better life for everyone. It is hard to be complacent when there are so many people suffering everyday. They are no different from me, other than virtue of birth, and so they too are my own.

This is an awesome quote I stole of Kgal by Martin Luther King Jr- Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
 
I don't know. We were born with an understanding of fear, it is so instinctual so that it triggers the fight and flight response which is essential to our survival. Does that mean we were born evil?



Also, don't you find it funny that when you get right down to the essence of things, the notions of Good and Evil become elusive? :]
 
Evil doesn't only have one root. Some, for example, do evil things simply because they do not care. The consequences of their actions are meaningless to them, including how they affect others. They do not commit evil because they feel fear, but rather because they feel nothing. Some, then, commit evil to feel something - not because they're afraid, but because they can, and if it will bring them pleasure, then why not?

Don't get me wrong, fear is powerful. It is only an influence, though, and one of many.
 
hush said:
Evil doesn't only have one root. Some, for example, do evil things simply because they do not care. The consequences of their actions are meaningless to them, including how they affect others. They do not commit evil because they feel fear, but rather because they feel nothing. Some, then, commit evil to feel something - not because they're afraid, but because they can, and if it will bring them pleasure, then why not?

Don't get me wrong, fear is powerful. It is only an influence, though, and one of many.
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I agree that evil does have multiple roots. I do think that these stem from ignorance, fear and laziness.

All normal human feel emotions. There are those that do not feel fear, and this is often the result of a psychological abormality or severe trauma. People that suffer from anti-social personality disorder and psychopaths do not feel and understand the world as other humans. These people are not innately evil, but their evil behaviours are created through their life experiences and environment. These people often slip through the cracks in our system and may not get the love, guidance, support and knowledge they need to live better lives. A society as a whole creates a psychopath through negligence, ignorance, and a culture that encourage competitive and selfish behaviour.

If anything I feel sorry for psychopaths and dont consider them truly evil because I dont see their behaviour as intentional as those of a psychologically normal human.

There are people that have low fear response and have been able to use that ability in an adaptive way to help the communtity. Many fireman and search and rescue workers have lmited startle response, low fear response and use that ability to live productive lives and help the community.
 
To me evil is the lack of good, the same as darkness is the lack of light. Overly simplistic maybe. Fear is the lack of trust. Without good there is no trust, so maybe yes?
 
Odyne said:
I don't know. We were born with an understanding of fear, it is so instinctual so that it triggers the fight and flight response which is essential to our survival. Does that mean we were born evil?
Also, don't you find it funny that when you get right down to the essence of things, the notions of Good and Evil become elusive? :]
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Yes the notions of good and evil are certainly elusive and not that helpful in really undertanding the complexity of human behaviour. They are the starting points, not necessarily the conculsions.

Fear is instinctual and can be protective and adaptive. Not all fear is bad. Fear in itself in neutral, it is how we choose to process, understand and respond to the fear that can lead to evil. We as humans are greater than our sympathetic nervous system and we do not just react blindly and automatically to stimuli. Our fear response is a part of our greater programming and our fear response is programmed by our thoughts, beliefs, expectations, experience, culture, environment, abilities, and knowledge.

Fear is very useful because it indicates our vulnerabilities and weaknesses. We can use this information in a useful and productive way to better ourselves and be more adaptive if we have courage.
Courage is not the absence of fear, but the mastery of it.
'Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgement that something else is more important than fear'- Ambrose Redmmon

Fear is dangerous when it blinds people and sends them into a self preservation mode. When people feel threatened they can do things that can be dangerous or evil to others.

People are not born to be afraid. This happens over time as they become enculturalised in hostile environments. People can still learn to overcome their fear if they have the right knowledge, courage and strength.

Fear and ignorance blind people from learning the true secret of life. The secret of life is that you create your reality and together we create a mutual, shared reality. We create our heavens and hells. Our expectations and beliefs are materialised in our experiences. We are not passive, helpless victims of our environement and destiny. If you expect that the environment and people are hostile, you will make it so through the power of your self fullfilling prophesy. We actively create and engage our world by every thought, emotion and action. Our purpose here is to learn and master our powers of creation, in a way that is not harmful to ourselves, the environment or to others.

This is a beautiful and powerful concept but many people choose not to accept it because of fear and ignorance. Many people dont want to accept that they alone are the author of their own story and have a real impact on our mutual shared story. To accept this would mean to take responsibility for all your actions and face your real self.

It was hard for me for this reason. Having to face myself and realise how my expectations had created a reality that I wasnt happy with, how I was implicated in the wrong of our mutual reality. To see the motivations of the evilest, vilest people in the world reflected in my own life and behaviour. To take full responsiblity for one's life is a fearsome thing but is extremely empowering and the secret of life and happiness.

Ofcourse our powers of reality creation have environmental constraints due to the physical environment. This is necessary so that we can learn and see the real and concrete effects of our expectations and beliefs on our environment and other people.

When I was younger I used to look down at people that had religious faith, especialy my father who is a devout Christian. I used to think that he was ignorant, unrealistic, irrational and a sheep. Blind to the truth. I used to think he was a coward that didnt have the strength to face the reality of the world. I couldnt have been more wrong about him.

He has known the secret of life and the power of faith for a long time. His actions that I used to consider passive and cowardly came from a place of love, not fear. He has absolute faith in the christain God and his religion to the point where he feels no fear and loves everybody.

Many years ago when I was a young teenager living at home, my parents were having a bible study with another couple. My sister and I were both asleep. There was a loud party that had been happening maybe a block away. Suddenly I heard all this loud smashing and yelling on the back door- which was next to my room. My mom came in and forced me to stay in bed while my dad dealt with our visitor. I peeked through the window and eavesdropped. Our visitor was drunk and had run away from a fight at this party. He had an ugly looking knife and was screaming for help and yelling abuse at my dad. He had already smashed some of our potplants and was trying to break the door. My dad looked freaked out but he let this guy in, calmed him down and ended up talking to hime for the next 5 hours, along with the other christian couple. He called the police out to the party to break it up but he was completely non judgemental with his visitor. My mom brought him some food and drink and dad and his friend ended up playing guitar for him and praying for him! I was lying in bed thinking WTF! The guy was crying when dad drove him home in the morning. The next Sunday this guy came to church with dad but then we never saw him again.

The power of may dad's faith shaped that experience for him. He is a blessed man and a blessing to others in the community. Bad things have happened to him and he has experienced much pain but he chooses to live a good life and be happy. He chooses to have faith in God and trust people, therefore creating a loving and trusting experience of reality for himself. I am not a Christian or religious myself because I have issues with my father's dogma and worldview but I cannot deny that his faith is a powerful thing that command respect. He expects that his reality will be shaped by his beliefs and actions, he chooses a schema of love to view the world and he is rewarded in turn with love and security.
 
" If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds,
and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them.

But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being,
and who is willing to destroy his own heart? "...............- Alexander Solzhenitsyn
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Maybe someone has already said this, but I think that fear actually does a lot more to prevent conflicts than it does to aggravate/start them. Paranoia is more dangerous, but it's not exactly the same thing as fear. Fear is the reason that people don't go around punching lions, drinking borax and having unprotected sex with prostitutes…with fear, the context is important. Fear can also make people get along better-- if they're weak and afraid of conflict, they're more likely to be extremely friendly, in order to avoid conflict… people who are afraid of conflict are actually much nicer than the people who are only nice because they want something from you (sex, money, amusement, etc.). So yeah, I think that fear has its place and isn't completely evil.

The most evil things I can think of are probably stupidity, lack of empathy, narcissism and self-righteousness-- and fear doesn't really play a role in any of those things. Apathy isn't good, but taken on its own at least you're probably not making anything worse-- but if you don't have empathy, you're stupid, you think you're always right about everything/above basic morality, and you feel entitled to things you know are causing other people to suffer, then you're probably evil.

Ignorance is another big one-- if you know you're ignorant it's not as bad, but when you don't seem to know how ignorant you really are then you're probably more likely to do evil things.
 
Apone said:
Maybe someone has already said this, but I think that fear actually does a lot more to prevent conflicts than it does to aggravate/start them. Paranoia is more dangerous, but it's not exactly the same thing as fear. Fear is the reason that people don't go around punching lions, drinking borax and having unprotected sex with prostitutes
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Kgal said:
" If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds,
and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them.

But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being,
and who is willing to destroy his own heart? "...............- Alexander Solzhenitsyn
​
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Kgal I absolutely love this! Its very well said. Always, thank you
 
I'd just like to point out that he original quote is "The love of money is the root of many(or all kinds of evil) evils"- 1 Timothy 6:10.
 
Asarya said:
To reach out to and stand up to a bully with love in order to build understanding and resolve conflict despite your fear is an act of courage.
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Flight or fight is a natural instinct among almost all living creatures and in many ways not standing up to others, turning to other people for an objective perspective on things, or not getting into conflicts all the time is what allows society to function. We like to think it's because we're confident enough to know how to handle such situations or because we're 'above' violence, but I think it's mostly because all animals everywhere fear being permanently damaged/hurt and one of the things that makes humans so successful is that we know how to back down from destructive conflicts and for the most part recognize that it's better to get along-- which is also why we're currently in one of the longest peace periods in human history (and also why the population has exploded). Schools everywhere have policies regarding bullies (or should have, anyways)… the problem isn't that the kid is afraid, it's that he doesn't know what to do or because no one is backing him up… despite what Hollywood wants everyone to think, it's just not realistic to expect everyone who stands up to bullies to actually win, or for the bully to always back down, or for the kid standing up to him to not end up being permanently damaged by the conflict.

As for your list of fears-- all of those things sound like great motivators for change to me, not at all a cause to do evil.

Asarya said:
I think that apathy is very dangerous and does indeed make things much worse. To be apathetic is to be indifferent, helpless and unhelpful, hopeless, passive, and unwilling to take action. To be apathetic is to be part of the problem, not the solution. Anyone that willfully chooses to ignore and not respond to injustice is implicated in the injustice and evil in this world.
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'Being implicated in the injustice in the world' is a brand sparkling new development in the history of the human race and probably the entire natural world-- it's also a first world luxury. I'm no expert on the subject, but I've been to a few third world countries… and in every single one of them I've given money to people. And I kept on giving… not just huge tips, either… I mean, there are some really sad hard luck stories around and you really do want to help. And yeah, giving feels good and right, but after being approached by sad story after sad story you start to realize that you could never have enough money or time or strength to solve all of their problems, and the best you can do is probably provide them with some degree of temporary relief… probably drugs, but I didn't ask.

And you can trumpet humanitarian causes and revolutions and freedom all you like, but the bottom line is that not everyone can be out there fighting for other people all the time-- you still need to take an active interest in your own country and your own family in order to have that luxury in the first place, and after a lot of hard work and time spent making society go, you can't really begrudge someone their luxuries/entertainment. Usually when someone goes on and on about standing against 'injustice and evil' I assume that they're either really young and naive and have a lot of free time on their hands, an intellectual/academic-type with little connection to the real world, or maybe there's a small chance that they actually are doing something about it-- in which case, good for them, but again, you still need people to look after the homeland while you're off saving the world. I'm not against taking action, but to expect everyone to always be solving the world's problems together is just not reality… on the other hand, I definitely think that the promotion of willfully destructive acts is wrong and I agree that that has to be stopped.

Asarya said:
Apathy is a protective shield that keeps the pain and awareness away. Many people need to be apathetic to justify their greed and selfishness. They don't want to feel bad about themselves and feel sympathy or a sense of responsibility for others pain. They dont want to help others or the responsibility of awareness. Others are ignorant and lazy.
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The idea of being responsible for someone else is always appealing, but the reality of it is completely different… especially when you have your own responsibilities and most people can barely look after themselves. If the world's problems had simple solutions, then most people would probably do whatever they could… the trouble is that nobody knows the solutions, people act without knowing the solution, and the end result is a lot of waste… also, sometimes there are no solutions.

Asarya said:
'The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it.' - Einstein
'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.'- Edmund Burke
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Einstein was a scientist, not a philosopher… and the second quote sounds more like propaganda than objective fact. So what if I think Wall Street is evil, decide to blow it up killing thousands of people, and not only that but I also manage to cause a crash that ends up bankrupting millions of people and starts America on its way to becoming a full-blown third world country ruled by brutal dictators who make Kim Jong Il look like Ghandi? I mean, I thought that that was the right thing to do and I stood up against evil...

Asarya said:
We are all implicated and responsible for the evil in the world. We create evil together through our cultures based on fear and ignorance, and nuturing selfish and apathetic behaviour. We prolong evil by not standing up for justice and refusing to take responsibility for the problems. We all played a part in making the world the way that it is today and we will all need to play a part in making the world a better place.
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There will always be evil in the world, and there will always be good... but the universe will always be indifferent.
 
Apone said:
Flight or fight is a natural instinct among almost all living creatures and in many ways not standing up to others, turning to other people for an objective perspective on things, or not getting into conflicts all the time is what allows society to function. We like to think it's because we're confident enough to know how to handle such situations or because we're 'above' violence, but I think it's mostly because all animals everywhere fear being permanently damaged/hurt and one of the things that makes humans so successful is that we know how to back down from destructive conflicts and for the most part recognize that it's better to get along-- which is also why we're currently in one of the longest peace periods in human history (and also why the population has exploded). Schools everywhere have policies regarding bullies (or should have, anyways)
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Asarya said:
Personally, I dont belive that humans are the same as evolved animals. I think that our consiousness is much higher evolved and we have reasoning and communication capababilities far greater than animals.
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Higher in relation to what? Animals understand each other just fine… just because they don't have facebook accounts and college degrees, it doesn't mean that they're not communicating. Sometimes keeping it simple is the way to go… it makes it easier to understand what you're getting at. And to be honest, I've met dogs who were far more altruistic than a lot of people…

Asarya said:
And perhaps it is a luxury that the first world is afforded to think about these things, but this luxury has only been afforded at the expense of what 1st world countries have done to developing nations. The only reason we have it so good is because we have exploited so many developing nations. The developing world doesnt have time to think about these things, they just have time to live and survive.
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What exactly have we done to the developing nations? How have we exploited them? Usually the developing countries are the way they are because they're oppressed from within. The most serious crimes against humanity have absolutely nothing to do with the first world… in Africa, it's tribal warfare or vendetta that goes back for centuries… in Southeast Asia it's political instability and oppression from within-- and don't play the colonialism card because South Korea rose from third world status to a country whose economy will overtake Canada by 2025, all within less than 50 years-- all it took was hard work, the right leader, some social engineering, the Vietnam war, and the American military-- so yeah, it's completely possible for countries to pull themselves up…

Asarya said:
This is my personal belief- I believe strongly that we all create our own reality. Thats what the purpose of life is- to learn and master our powers of awareness and creation. In that sense we can create any kind of world we like or desire. I think that it is important to experience life in all its shades to learn, including suffering and 'evil' but I think the true lesson is love. I believe that love is the resounding principle in the entire universe.
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Humans have been 'creating' the world they like or desire for the past 10,000 years… which is why it's so good for us, and so bad for most of the other animals. I don't think there's a 'lesson' at all-- it's all just sort of there, it's not really trying to 'teach' you anything and I don't think that there's anything to know, or any real profound truth to it. It's just an experience… that's all-- it can't be articulated or approached or remembered… and like everything, it approaches something more without ever becoming anything more… it's just there and there's nothing more than that to be read into it, but the good news is that that is enough.
 
Asarya said:
I used to think that money was the root of all evil- but the love of money is derived from greed. And the root of greed is fear.
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IMO, there are two cases for the root of greed:


1) fear

2) narcissism


The real question is this: does the narcissist possess fear of anything else than dwindling narcissistic supply?
 
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