Is self interest the best or only basis for morality?

[Cornerstone]

I'd guess that God's preference is that creation > destruction.

What scale we think about, talk about and act upon (successfully or not) depends on our awareness, which is unique.

Sometimes we destroy in order to create and sometime we create in order to destroy. It all gets very complicated, but that's part of the fun.

 

[say what]

I wonder if the opposing perspectives on morality comes down to believing that God is and sets morality, vs. humans and humanity defining morality. It seems like there is a fundamental difference between the two which creates a difference between objective and subjective morality. Neither is wrong or right, just two very difference perspectives- each with their own weight, and each which deserves respect.

I also think we (myself included), need to be careful when claiming an opposing perspective is 'silly', 'absurd', or 'unlogical'. It does nothing to further a conversation to put down an opposing view/perspective- it takes it to a personal level, and changes the discussion from being engaging, enlightening and educational - to nasty and destructive.

So, knowing my perspective, that humanity defines morality- I would say, 'yes', self-interest is the basis of morality, at humanity, as it's core, needs to have self interest.

 

[LucyJr]

You're attempting to claim a non-biased, objective morality through proxy. You are not God and you do not speak for God. You are a person, and by definition are subject to bias.

I do not harbor ill-will towards your views, but this discussion has become entirely about you proving yourself right and has little to nothing to do with other's point of views or even God's will.

God needn't be proven right, by definition, hence you are trying to prove your bias to be 'in the right' by showing that it is aligned with God's.

Suffice it to say, I think you are entirely mistaken.

Is that your counter-argument to all what I have said? That I'm biased? Or aren't you biased maybe?
I wonder how far this can go with people like you. You can finish any argument with such a statement.

I don't prove God right, I answer to what I think its a contradictory and very dangerous view, subjective morality. I try my best. Perhaps I can be overly loud and opinionate, which is something I recognise, but this doesn't have anything to do with the matters disscused.

 

[Eventhorizon]

To intend to live upon the planet with others as is necessary for survival. Is there not only one "moral code" that regardless of faith or anything else, must be abided by? Do to others as you would have done to you?

This idea goes beyond any thought of a god etc. This is necessary for our very survival. Is this a moral or a foundation?

 

[say what]

To intend to live upon the planet with others as is necessary for survival. Is there not only one "moral code" that regardless of faith or anything else, must be abided by? Do to others as you would have done to you?

This idea goes beyond any thought of a god etc. This is necessary for our very survival. Is this a moral or a foundation?

I heard somewhere that this code is universal, and that in all faiths, even though it might not be word for word, there is this same golden rule!


On a side note - is this rule based on self-interest?!

 

[CogentPursuit]

I don't prove God right, I answer to what I think its a contradictory and very dangerous view, subjective morality.

Dangerous yes. Very. Like Hitler and his greater good. Or possibly the crusades. Regardless. If the greater morality that you speak of exists. It is beyond our reach and therefore useless. For now we have to live with what we have and thankfully it works for the most part, as can be evidenced around you.

 

[LucyJr]

Dangerous yes. Very. Like Hitler and his greater good. Or possibly the crusades. Regardless. If the greater morality that you speak of exists. It is beyond our reach and therefore useless. For now we have to live with what we have and thankfully it works for the most part, as can be evidenced around you.

The greate morality exists and we know it, it is in our heart. That's what the Bible say. We can pretend we don'w know it, but we do know it.
What you have mentioned, crusades or Holocaust, are direct consequances of imorality and sin.
People know hat is right and what is wrong. They just...don't like it. They like to do other things.

 

[SovereignGrace]

What has been demonstrated over and over again in this thread is the utter confusion and blindness and lack of reason humankind has possessed since the Fall.

Ever since the fall of Adam in the Garden of Eden, when sin and death entered, humans have lacked true discernment.

Even the most brilliant thinkers of all time had this glaring inability. They simply cannot discern moral truth from error.

How foolish and absurd it is to claim that morality is subjective. Without some sort of unchanging, objective basis, any argument you make about morality will be circular reasoning.

Furthermore, God is, himself, the standard of all morality, truth, reason, logic, order, etc. So, in spite of humanity's futile attempts to concoct various systems of subjective morality, they are all self-contradictory and utterly absurd. Particularly the idea of morality based on self-interest. That's just a euphemism for "selfishness."
What hypocrisy! What a foolish masquerade "enlightened self-interest" is!

Whatever so-called "morality" one possesses, if it's not based on faith in Jesus Christ, and in conformity to his sovereign will and purpose, it's just as evil in God's sight as demon worship. Plain and simple.

No matter how "religious" a person is, no matter how "moral" he thinks he is, unless God gives him life and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, his so-called "morality" will take him straight to Hell.

WHY?

Because God rightfully demands PERFECTION. Even our best works are just filthy rags to God. He can't love us or accept us by our sinful works.

Only the God-man, the Lord Jesus Christ, obeyed PERFECTLY, the will of God in ALL things.
Only the God-man, the Lord Jesus Christ, could die as a substitute for sinners, and be raised again to life for sinners.
And only the God-man, the Lord Jesus Christ, can give life and faith to a sinner.

And his perfect righteousness is accounted to every sinner for whom he died, and to every sinner who has been given faith in him.

God has purposed the redemption of all those who come to Christ, seeking mercy and forgiveness of sin.

That is the truth, and if God is pleased to save you, he will make that truth KNOWN to YOU. And you will bow to, and believe on, Jesus Christ.

But if he leaves you to your own devices, and he most certainly has the RIGHT to, you will perish in your sins and go to Hell.

Therefore, repent of your "morality" and come to Jesus Christ, by faith, and receive a full pardon for sin.

He said:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." --John 6:37

May God be pleased to give you faith his Son, that you might know him and enjoy him forever.

 

[say what]

The fact that one approaches morality under the justification that God is the determination of morality, is subjective in and of itself.

Objectivity requires no bias or assumptions - it is an overall truth that holds no one belief, perspective, or ideology.

Saying a Christian God determines morality is directly agreeing with the subjectivity of morality.

 

[say what]

What LucyJr has demonstrated over and over again in this thread is the utter confusion and blindness and lack of reason humankind has possessed since the Fall.

Ever since the fall of Adam in the Garden of Eden, when sin and death entered, humans have lacked true discernment.

Even the most brilliant thinkers of all time had this glaring inability. They simply cannot discern moral truth from error.

How foolish and absurd it is to claim that morality is subjective. As LucyJr pointed out, without some sort of unchanging, objective basis, any argument you make about morality will be circular reasoning.

God is, himself, the standard of all morality, truth, reason, logic, order, etc. So, in spite of humanity's futile attempts to concoct various systems of subjective morality, they are all self-contradictory and utterly absurd. Particularly the idea of morality based on self-interest. That's just a euphemism for "selfishness."
What hypocrisy! What a foolish masquerade "enlightened self-interest" is!

Whatever so-called "morality" one possesses, if it's not based on faith in Jesus Christ, and in conformity to his sovereign will and purpose, it's just as evil in God's sight as demon worship. Plain and simple.

No matter how "religious" a person is, no matter how "moral" he thinks he is, unless God gives him life and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, his so-called "morality" will take him straight to Hell.

WHY?

Because only the God-man, the Lord Jesus Christ, obeyed PERFECTLY, the will of God in ALL things.
And only the God-man, the Lord Jesus Christ, could die as a substitute for sinners.
And only the God-man, the Lord Jesus Christ, can give life and faith to a sinner.

And God has purposed the redemption of all those who come to Christ, seeking mercy and forgiveness of sin.

That is the truth, and if God is pleased to save you, he will make that truth KNOWN to YOU.

But if he leaves you to your own devices, and he most certainly has the RIGHT to, you will perish in your sins and go to Hell.

Therefore, repent of your "morality" and come to Jesus Christ, by faith.

He said:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." --John 6:37

May God be pleased to bring you to his Son.

Your points would hold much more conviction if you made them under your actual account. Creating a fake account to make a point only suggests that you question what you're actually saying.

 

[the]

What is the point of being a moral person? In my experience morality always seems to be a gate instead of a stepping stone.

 

[LucyJr]

The fact that one approaches morality under the justification that God is the determination of morality, is subjective in and of itself.

Objectivity requires no bias or assumptions - it is an overall truth that holds no one belief, perspective, or ideology.

Saying a Christian God determines morality is directly agreeing with the subjectivity of morality.

I think you have missundertood objectivity and subjectivity.

Objectivity requires no bias or assumptions - it is an overall truth that holds no one belief, perspective, or ideology.
How can God be "biased"? Against what? Against lie and evil?
How can God make assumptions? For what? To prove one point or another? God knows everything.
Do you think God has perspectives, beliefs or ideologies? Its absurd. God knows everything. he doesn't see things "from a perspective".

it is an overall truth that holds no one belief

This is correct. That's truth. And that is objective morality. Its a truth, a value set that holds true wether anyone believes is truth or not.

Saying a Christian God determines morality is directly agreeing with the subjectivity of morality.

No, because God is where the subjective meets the objective. God is The Absolute. He is a person, but His personhood and his existence, has metaphysical necessity weight. All what is good, true, just, lovely and perfect reside in His nature.

 

[say what]

I think you have missundertood objectivity and subjectivity.

Objectivity requires no bias or assumptions - it is an overall truth that holds no one belief, perspective, or ideology.
How can God be "biased"? Against what? Against lie and evil?
How can God make assumptions? For what? To prove one point or another? God knows everything.
Do you think God has perspectives, beliefs or ideologies? Its absurd. God knows everything. he doesn't see things "from a perspective".

This is correct. That's truth. And that is objective morality. Its a truth, a value set that holds true wether anyone believes is truth or not.

No, because God is where the subjective meets the objective. God is The Absolute. He is a person, but His personhood and his existence, has metaphysical necessity weight. All what is good, true, just, lovely and perfect reside in His nature.

Again, this is your perspective- it's also a perspective that only a third of the world believes in. The other ~70% believe in a vast number of other things. The fact that you're basing morality on YOUR idea of God, is, in itself, subjective.

YOUR God might be objective. But that doesn't mean morality for everyone is determined by YOUR God.

 

[Lark]

To determine where the majority falls will depend on where the corresponding lines are drawn, and I’m not entirely sure that you and I are headed in the same direction. I even suspect that where you might be trying to narrow in on something, I might be backed out and looking at it more broadly.

Anyway, in my opinion we are under a great, great number of influences. In general I would say that the majority of us are experiencing greater awareness and recognition of external influences, greater awareness and a deeper understanding of our own internal responses, and in some sense, greater intimacy with the seat of our own power. We’re also having experiences of extreme powerlessness, which to some degree teach us “the rules of the game”.

The morality mentioned in recent posts, while being a byproduct as you’ve described, is simultaneously acting as an influence in a very typical and commonplace cause and effect kind of dance. But it is this very type of dynamic that we, in greater numbers, are becoming conscious of. What will this amount to? I don’t know, but consciousness has the tendency to create.

I dont really share you're view, that's correct, because what you've described or theorised about is something which I've read about in detail and depth years ago as social character, social consciousness/unconsciousness and the comprehension of these things at that time, and they were circulated by really popular authors so it was not a niche comprehension, did not lead to any deep social change.

 

[CogentPursuit]

The greate morality exists and we know it, it is in our heart. That's what the Bible say. We can pretend we don'w know it, but we do know it.
What you have mentioned, crusades or Holocaust, are direct consequances of imorality and sin.
People know hat is right and what is wrong. They just...don't like it. They like to do other things.

I am familiar with this from when I was a Christian. People are often unaware of how their desires affect their reasoning. Often they seek answers to questions ignoring the evidence that is contrary to what they seek. This inevitably leads them to the answer they want and not the truth. I found such desires in my heart. In seeking a greater morality i was able to root it out. The need to live was the greatest desire. Likely it is the greatest desire of most.
Heaven became a great promise but also a selfish desire of mine. How could I believe in God just to satisfy a selfish desire? How could such a thing be moral? I wanted more. To do what is right without such chains. To be good wihtout selfish reasons. I disbanded the need to live. I accepted the hell or void or death of any kind. But then there was nothing to keep me bonded to christ, what need did I have to be saved if I did not care to be saved? I left him at that point. For the rest of my life I will be seperated from god and only because I gave up my life for the greater good. For in the end it matters not what the bible says, I know in my heart that destroying a life is wrong and in turn it would destroy my mind and sould to do so. If such a thing is true then how could God live with such burden? If such a thing is true how can I see a sick child and be burdend with their loss and then look at god and know this is right? Is it not only selfless to wish this child well? How can this be moral? I know in my heart it is not and there is no selfish desire corrupting my lense.

 

[Lark]

No matter how "religious" a person is, no matter how "moral" he thinks he is, unless God gives him life and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, his so-called "morality" will take him straight to Hell.

Not only do I think you are mistaken, I also think there's a powerful case that this was not and is not the actual teaching of Christ himself.

 

[Lark]

I am familiar with this from when I was a Christian. People are often unaware of how their desires affect their reasoning. Often they seek answers to questions ignoring the evidence that is contrary to what they seek. This inevitably leads them to the answer they want and not the truth. I found such desires in my heart. In seeking a greater morality i was able to root it out. The need to live was the greatest desire. Likely it is the greatest desire of most.
Heaven became a great promise but also a selfish desire of mine. How could I believe in God just to satisfy a selfish desire? How could such a thing be moral? I wanted more. To do what is right without such chains. To be good wihtout selfish reasons. I disbanded the need to live. I accepted the hell or void or death of any kind. But then there was nothing to keep me bonded to christ, what need did I have to be saved if I did not care to be saved? I left him at that point. For the rest of my life I will be seperated from god and only because I gave up my life for the greater good. For in the end it matters not what the bible says, I know in my heart that destroying a life is wrong and in turn it would destroy my mind and sould to do so. If such a thing is true then how could God live with such burden? If such a thing is true how can I see a sick child and be burdend with their loss and then look at god and know this is right? Is it not only selfless to wish this child well? How can this be moral? I know in my heart it is not and there is no selfish desire corrupting my lense.

See what you're talking about there? That's called rationalisation in psycho-analysis.

 

[Eventhorizon]

On a side note - is this rule based on self-interest?!

I would say so. But what was the question in the first place if this is a question?

 

[SovereignGrace]

No matter how "religious" a person is, no matter how "moral" he thinks he is, unless God gives him life and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, his so-called "morality" will take him straight to Hell.

Not only do I think you are mistaken, I also think there's a powerful case that this was not and is not the actual teaching of Christ himself.

Then you are lost, and only God can save you.

And the same goes for anyone else who disagrees. I can't convince you. I can only proclaim it to you.

Once again, no matter how "religious" a person is, no matter how "moral" he thinks he is, unless God gives him life and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, his so-called "morality" will take him straight to Hell.

It's Christ or Hell. That's it. You've been warned.

This is not a matter of debate.

God-given faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the only way a sinner can be made right with God.

John 6:35-40:

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

 

[say what]

I would say so. But what was the question in the first place if this is a question?

There was a question!? haha