Islam - A religion of peace?

[sprinkles]

Aleph is a hebrew letter...it's another occult sect using a mish mash of stuff (chaos magick)

Indeed. This is why chaos is dangerous and I don't teach it even though I admit to it.

It's like a chemistry set. Powerful for good in the right hands but incredibly destructive in the wrong ones. You don't even have to have bad intent for it to go wrong either - it only takes mistakes.

 

[muir]

Indeed. This is why chaos is dangerous and I don't teach it even though I admit to it.

It's like a chemistry set. Powerful for good in the right hands but incredibly destructive in the wrong ones. You don't even have to have bad intent for it to go wrong either - it only takes mistakes.

Yeah INTENT is everything

Whats going on at a persons core

The people who i see seduced by the black lodge always have a lot of chaos in their life; we all have some chaos...life is messy...but they always seem to generate extra chaos

I said this recently about people in the OTO and sure enough within weeks of that debate (where i was called all sorts of names) the daughter of Bob Geldof died aged only 25. She was a member of the OTO and had it tattood on her arm. The autopsy says she died of heroin overdose...i don't know....her dad is certainly involved in the music industry and all that goes with that.

A lot of people don't know what they're dealing with.

Religion is all magick too

What matters is the adherents INTENT. A christian with a good heart is not going to go out of their way to hurt others and neither will a muslim or a jew with a good heart

And thats key here....

A jew with a good heart has more in common with a muslim or a christian with a good heart than they do with a jew with a bad heart

A muslim with a good heart has more in common with a good hearted christian or jew than they do with a bad hearted muslim etc

Equally though we also find those with black hearts from different cultures working together against those with good hearts and often they use occult groups as vehicles for that because these transcend religious boundaries

 

[sprinkles]

Yeah INTENT is everything

Whats going on at a persons core

The people who i see seduced by the black lodge always have a lot of chaos in their life; we all have some chaos...life is messy...but they always seem to generate extra chaos

I said this recently about people in the OTO and sure enough within weeks of that debate (where i was called all sorts of names) the daughter of Bob Geldof died aged only 25. She was a member of the OTO and had it tattood on her arm. The autopsy says she died of heroin overdose...i don't know....her dad is certainly involved in the music industry and all that goes with that.

A lot of people don't know what they're dealing with.

Religion is all magick too

What matters is the adherents INTENT. A christian with a good heart is not going to go out of their way to hurt others and neither will a muslim or a jew with a good heart

And thats key here....

A jew with a good heart has more in common with a muslim or a christian with a good heart than they do with a jew with a bad heart

A muslim with a good heart has more in common with a good hearted christian or jew than they do with a bad hearted muslim etc

Equally though we also find those with black hearts from different cultures working together against those with good hearts and often they use occult groups as vehicles for that because these transcend religious boundaries

Normally I agree. In usual magics - and in chaos too, intent is usually everything.

However one key point about chaos is to deconstruct your perception of reality to try and get closer to the ultimate.

Imagine a mentally ill person that sees constant hallucinations that are trying to kill him. Regardless of his heart he is harmed. This is what chaos can do to people if not handled with care. If you deconstruct your reality and reconstruct it in a bad way then even good intentions can end up with harmful results because the sufferer has lost sight of himself and everything. He becomes mad - and not in any kind of good way.

 

[muir]

Normally I agree. In usual magics - and in chaos too, intent is usually everything.

However one key point about chaos is to deconstruct your perception of reality to try and get closer to the ultimate.

Imagine a mentally ill person that sees constant hallucinations that are trying to kill him. Regardless of his heart he is harmed. This is what chaos can do to people if not handled with care. If you deconstruct your reality and reconstruct it in a bad way then even good intentions can end up with harmful results because the sufferer has lost sight of himself and everything. He becomes mad - and not in any kind of good way.

Yeah but the nature of your trip can be determined by your intent

Also the ways in which you deconstruct and reconstruct will be affected by your intent

 

[sprinkles]

Yeah but the nature of your trip can be determined by your intent

Also the ways in which you deconstruct and reconstruct will be affected by your intent

That's true.

Some people aren't sure about their intent though. Maybe they don't really have one and are just messing around. It has happened to me before and it did a lot of psychological damage to me that took years to recover from because I was just fooling around like it was a game, and didn't know the subtle changes that were building up.

Normally people can mess with it once and not notice but I did it so much that it really stacked up to a dangerous level. I jumped in without knowing how to swim and had to learn or drown.

 

[muir]

That's true.

Some people aren't sure about their intent though. Maybe they don't really have one and are just messing around. It has happened to me before and it did a lot of psychological damage to me that took years to recover from because I was just fooling around like it was a game, and didn't know the subtle changes that were building up.

Normally people can mess with it once and not notice but I did it so much that it really stacked up to a dangerous level. I jumped in without knowing how to swim and had to learn or drown.

It can short fuses

I've had my fair share of head-fuckery

But regular life was always kind of boring anyway...wasn't it?

 

[Flavus Aquila]

I don't know much about Islam, but I do remember feeling connected to it's message through the readings I have done on it.

I think with any religion though, the message gets distorted through individual actions. Someone who practices Islam might do terrible things in the name of the religion, but it might not necessarily be the actual message the is engrained in the religion.

I have some friendly acquaintances who are Muslim. However, even they joke that if they were actually following their religion, they should kill me.

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"


Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the truth from their lord. Thus does Allah set forth form men their lessons by similitude. Therefore when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"

Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"

 

[Skarekrow]

I have some friendly acquaintances who are Muslim. However, even they joke that if they were actually following their religion, they should kill me.

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"


Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the truth from their lord. Thus does Allah set forth form men their lessons by similitude. Therefore when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"

Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"

The Bible can be just as bad...I can throw up some quotes if you like.

 

[the]

I agree w muir here. Religion can be used for whatever ends the user uses it for. Now was it meant for peace in the beginning and how true is it? hard to say.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

The Bible can be just as bad...I can throw up some quotes if you like.

Go ahead. All the Old Testament violence is highly contextualized: it applied to the Jews in a particular situation - none of it is directive for an ongoing way of life. Certainly, none of it translates into the New Testament.

 

[just me]

I studied jihad after 9/11. We all have struggles. Paul struggled on the road to Damascus. Paul struggled with his body of sin and death. I do not like the ability to take a verse or two and turn them around to kill people, belittle women, and such. There are many groups out there supporting terrorist cells with funds from good-hearted people. How do we take the war out of jihad?

 

[say what]

Go ahead. All the Old Testament violence is highly contextualized: it applied to the Jews in a particular situation - none of it is directive for an ongoing way of life. Certainly, none of it translates into the New Testament.

But the Quran isn't highly contextualized?

“And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and Faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression”. 2:193

“Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for Allah does not love transgressors”. 2:190

” … and let not the hatred of some people in (once) shutting you out of the Sacred Mosque lead you to transgression (and hostility on your part). Help ye one another in righteousness and piety, but help ye not one another in sin and rancour: fear Allah: for Allah is strict in punishment.” (Surah 5, Verse 2).


From the Bible:

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)



Peace and violence is woven throughout the Quran and the Bible.

 

[muir]

New Testament:

Jesus tells his bodyguards to get tooled up before they take their message on the road:

Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: `And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment." The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied. (Luke 22:35-38, NIV)

 

[Flavus Aquila]

New Testament:

Jesus tells his bodyguards to get tooled up before they take their message on the road:

Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: `And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment." The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied. (Luke 22:35-38, NIV)

I love seeing that passage from Luke quoted out of context - it would have taken reading just a couple more lines to see what it was about:

From Luke 22
34 He said, "I tell you, Peter, the cock will not crow this day, until you three times deny that you know me." 35 And he said to them, "When I sent you out with no purse or bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" They said, "Nothing." 36 He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one. 37 For I tell you that this scripture must be fulfilled in me, 'And he was reckoned with transgressors'; for what is written about me has its fulfilment." 38 And they said, "Look, Lord, here are two swords." And he said to them, "It is enough." 39 And he came out, and went, as was his custom, to the Mount of Olives; and the disciples followed him. 40 And when he came to the place he said to them, "Pray that you may not enter into temptation." 41 And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and knelt down and prayed, 42 "Father, if thou art willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." 43 * [No text] 44 * [No text] 45 And when he rose from prayer, he came to the disciples and found them sleeping for sorrow, 46 and he said to them, "Why do you sleep? Rise and pray that you may not enter into temptation." 47 While he was still speaking, there came a crowd, and the man called Judas, one of the twelve, was leading them. He drew near to Jesus to kiss him; 48 but Jesus said to him, "Judas, would you betray the Son of man with a kiss?" 49 And when those who were about him saw what would follow, they said, "Lord, shall we strike with the sword?" 50 And one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. 51 But Jesus said, "No more of this!" And he touched his ear and healed him.

Jesus never advocated the taking up of swords, except for a brief time, in order to fulfill prophecy. His instruction that they take up swords is the same as his warning to Peter: his disciples were to abandon him and the ways he taught them out of fear (Peter denied because of fear; Judas wanted a purse full of silver out of fear; and his other disciples wanted arms out of fear. Jesus allowed, albeit with some clear sarcasm, his disciples to betray him and his ways, but this was so that seeing their own weakness, they could turn to him later and be strengthened by his forgiveness. Only Judas did not repent - probably because without faith that Jesus was in charge of what was happening to him, he despaired for Jesus and commited suicide, instead of trusting and turning back to him.

Jesus tolerated the disciples to take up swords for a brief three hours, but as soon as they had drawn them, he permanently forbade them. And then having compassion, he immediately healed the soldier, whose ear was struck off.

 

[muir]

I love seeing that passage from Luke quoted out of context - it would have taken reading just a couple more lines to see what it was about:

From Luke 22
34 He said, "I tell you, Peter, the cock will not crow this day, until you three times deny that you know me." 35 And he said to them, "When I sent you out with no purse or bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" They said, "Nothing." 36 He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one. 37 For I tell you that this scripture must be fulfilled in me, 'And he was reckoned with transgressors'; for what is written about me has its fulfilment." 38 And they said, "Look, Lord, here are two swords." And he said to them, "It is enough." 39 And he came out, and went, as was his custom, to the Mount of Olives; and the disciples followed him. 40 And when he came to the place he said to them, "Pray that you may not enter into temptation." 41 And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and knelt down and prayed, 42 "Father, if thou art willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." 43 * [No text] 44 * [No text] 45 And when he rose from prayer, he came to the disciples and found them sleeping for sorrow, 46 and he said to them, "Why do you sleep? Rise and pray that you may not enter into temptation." 47 While he was still speaking, there came a crowd, and the man called Judas, one of the twelve, was leading them. He drew near to Jesus to kiss him; 48 but Jesus said to him, "Judas, would you betray the Son of man with a kiss?" 49 And when those who were about him saw what would follow, they said, "Lord, shall we strike with the sword?" 50 And one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. 51 But Jesus said, "No more of this!" And he touched his ear and healed him.

Jesus never advocated the taking up of swords, except for a brief time, in order to fulfill prophecy. His instruction that they take up swords is the same as his warning to Peter: his disciples were to abandon him and the ways he taught them out of fear (Peter denied because of fear; Judas wanted a purse full of silver out of fear; and his other disciples wanted arms out of fear. Jesus allowed, albeit with some clear sarcasm, his disciples to betray him and his ways, but this was so that seeing their own weakness, they could turn to him later and be strengthened by his forgiveness. Only Judas did not repent - probably because without faith that Jesus was in charge of what was happening to him, he despaired for Jesus and commited suicide, instead of trusting and turning back to him.

Jesus tolerated the disciples to take up swords for a brief three hours, but as soon as they had drawn them, he permanently forbade them. And then having compassion, he immediately healed the soldier, whose ear was struck off.

Wait..you're saying he allowed the mutilation of a soldier? To have made a precise incision of the ear the soldier must hve been pinned down by jesus's followers which must have been a pretty traumatic experience for the soldier...

Then jesus stops them short of...killing the guy?

I missed the bit in your post where jesus tells them to get rid of the swords?

 

[say what]

Jesus never advocated the taking up of swords, except for a brief time, in order to fulfill prophecy. His instruction that they take up swords is the same as his warning to Peter: his disciples were to abandon him and the ways he taught them out of fear (Peter denied because of fear; Judas wanted a purse full of silver out of fear; and his other disciples wanted arms out of fear. Jesus allowed, albeit with some clear sarcasm, his disciples to betray him and his ways, but this was so that seeing their own weakness, they could turn to him later and be strengthened by his forgiveness. Only Judas did not repent - probably because without faith that Jesus was in charge of what was happening to him, he despaired for Jesus and commited suicide, instead of trusting and turning back to him.

Jesus tolerated the disciples to take up swords for a brief three hours, but as soon as they had drawn them, he permanently forbade them. And then having compassion, he immediately healed the soldier, whose ear was struck off.

And the Quran says that you may use violence in self-defense. It says that there are times when violence is necessary, but it does not condone unjustified violence.

You complain about quotes being taken out of context from the Bible, but did the exact same thing in post #27.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

And the Quran says that you may use violence in self-defense. It says that there are times when violence is necessary, but it does not condone unjustified violence.

You complain about quotes being taken out of context from the Bible, but did the exact same thing in post #27.

You obviously have never picked up a Quran.

You are right that Islam does not condone unjustified violence. The problem is that someone holding a different faith is considered justified cause for violence.

Do some reading - I love a good discussion.

 

[j654dgj7]

You obviously have never picked up a Quran.

You are right that Islam does not condone unjustified violence. The problem is that someone holding a different faith is considered justified cause for violence.

Do some reading - I love a good discussion.

You're right as I see it. There are 109 verses in the very short Koran that condone violence against non-believers to achieve a global Muslims rule. The description of said violence (beheadings, hands being chopped off, etc.) and the practicality of the Koran is very frightening sometimes. Another very different thing from the Bible and the Koran is that Muslims believe that Muhammad wrote the Koran with the help of Archangel Gabriel, who was sent directly from God with the exact manuscript of the Koran. The Judeo-Christian Bible makes it clear that it was written by people, and that the text doesn't come from an angel or otherwise direct source from Heaven.

One of the main reasons that I'm asking this question is that we in Western Europe are having a lot of issues with violent and exclusive Muslims communities. They wear burkas and claim it's their right not to work, to engage in crime syndicates, and to exclaim all of us in the Western civilization as evil and corrupt. It terrifies me that very few Muslims have dared to speak up against this behavior, because the Koran and Hadith is very specific in its condemnation of non-believers - or infidels.

 

[Skarekrow]

That was the point I was getting at is...IT’S ALL TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT.

You don’t think the verses you can find on the internet when you do a search for “violent passages in Quran” are taken out of context to?

I can find violent verses in just about every holy book!

THAT...was my point.

Every major religion on earth has done regrettable and violent acts in it’s lifetime. By no means should that be an excuse, but it shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone no matter their religious beliefs.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

You're right as I see it. There are 109 verses in the very short Koran that condone violence against non-believers to achieve a global Muslims rule. The description of said violence (beheadings, hands being chopped off, etc.) and the practicality of the Koran is very frightening sometimes. Another very different thing from the Bible and the Koran is that Muslims believe that Muhammad wrote the Koran with the help of Archangel Gabriel, who was sent directly from God with the exact manuscript of the Koran. The Judeo-Christian Bible makes it clear that it was written by people, and that the text doesn't come from an angel or otherwise direct source from Heaven.

One of the main reasons that I'm asking this question is that we in Western Europe are having a lot of issues with violent and exclusive Muslims communities. They wear burkas and claim it's their right not to work, to engage in crime syndicates, and to exclaim all of us in the Western civilization as evil and corrupt. It terrifies me that very few Muslims have dared to speak up against this behavior, because the Koran and Hadith is very specific in its condemnation of non-believers - or infidels.

Europe, as much as it has explicitly jettisoned every available vestige of Christianity is still basically Christian in its outlook. By this I mean that Europeans have a generally kind outlook on other cultures and religions. Indeed, Europeans seem to tolerate any outlook, except that which is their heritage: Christianity.

I think Muslims are very aware of this and take advantage of it to impose themselves in an unequal way in European society It is human nature, some would say, to seek loopholes and advantage (fair, or unfair) for oneself.

Until Europe comes to terms with its own identity, I think it will have serious trouble with cultures and religions not compatible with its outlook - and either basically hand its territories to another culture, or if there is a turn-around actually stand for itself and its own culture.