Islam - A religion of peace?

[j654dgj7]

That was the point I was getting at is...IT’S ALL TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT.

You don’t think the verses you can find on the internet when you do a search for “violent passages in Quran” are taken out of context to?

I can find violent verses in just about every holy book!

THAT...was my point.

Every major religion on earth has done regrettable and violent acts in it’s lifetime. By no means should that be an excuse, but it shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone no matter their religious beliefs.

I get what you mean, but the Hadith is the official context explainer, if you may. It's not condoned by the vast majority of Muslims to go against it, with threat of being killed.

I'm definitely not saying that there aren't Muslims that are wonderful, sweet, moderate and contributors to society. I'm just saying that here in Europe, we're seeing a lot of issues with Muslims that are very orthodox and only socialize with other Muslims.

It bothers me that things are this way. My first girlfriend was a Muslim, and her name was Sara. She was the most wonderful, smart, sweet and beautiful girl I had ever known. Her brothers were all great to me, and her parents invited me over to eat with them. As soon as they found out that we were dating, they forced her to break up with me, and for her to never see me again. A year later, she was in a burka and set to be married to some guy from Lebanon that her parents knew. From what I've heard she still lives in my home town and is married with kids now. It hurts to know that just because I was from one culture and she was from another, we couldn't even socialize together. You could say that they're interpreting the religion wrong, but it's happening more often than you would like to see. Whenever I see a middle eastern girl without a hijab/burka I get surprised and happy, but it's not often I see it. Unfortunately.

 

[say what]

You obviously have never picked up a Quran.

You are right that Islam does not condone unjustified violence. The problem is that someone holding a different faith is considered justified cause for violence.

Do some reading - I love a good discussion.

Islam considers the first and the foremost basic right of a human being is the right to live, and equates the taking of even one human life unjustly, with killing all of humanity.

You're referring to a specific aspect of the Quran which only condones violence against non-Muslims during wartime combat. This is in reference to a letter from the Muslims in Medina to the pagans of Tabuk, in which the Muslims ask them to adhere to their peace treaties, or there will be open war. The Muslims offered amnesty to the pagans in the form of optional conversion instead of death- which is what has happened throughout history in Christianity.

Early Muslims, like Christians, were prosecuted for their faith by pagans. Thus the Quran condones the use of violence upon non-believers provided that violence is committed in the context of war- that is fighting to defend against perceived threats to their own faith. So yes, there is a reference in the Quran that promotes killing non-believers...but, if you talk to practising Muslims, you'll likely see that most ignore that, and promote the peaceful components of the Quran.

Islam is like any other religion, including Christianity- there are parts that are violent, and there are parts that are peaceful. It is up to the believer to take what they want from the readings, and practice accordingly. The unfortunate thing about Islam is that people only focus on the extremists and their interpretation of the Quran. But these individuals are a much small proportion of Muslims.

 

[say what]

You're right as I see it. There are 109 verses in the very short Koran that condone violence against non-believers to achieve a global Muslims rule. The description of said violence (beheadings, hands being chopped off, etc.) and the practicality of the Koran is very frightening sometimes. Another very different thing from the Bible and the Koran is that Muslims believe that Muhammad wrote the Koran with the help of Archangel Gabriel, who was sent directly from God with the exact manuscript of the Koran. The Judeo-Christian Bible makes it clear that it was written by people, and that the text doesn't come from an angel or otherwise direct source from Heaven.

One of the main reasons that I'm asking this question is that we in Western Europe are having a lot of issues with violent and exclusive Muslims communities. They wear burkas and claim it's their right not to work, to engage in crime syndicates, and to exclaim all of us in the Western civilization as evil and corrupt. It terrifies me that very few Muslims have dared to speak up against this behavior, because the Koran and Hadith is very specific in its condemnation of non-believers - or infidels.

I would ask you though if these 109 verses are not in relation to a specific context/portion of the Quran that is about Muslims fighting for the right to practice their own faith.

 

[say what]

Europe, as much as it has explicitly jettisoned every available vestige of Christianity is still basically Christian in its outlook. By this I mean that Europeans have a generally kind outlook on other cultures and religions. Indeed, Europeans seem to tolerate any outlook, except that which is their heritage: Christianity.

I think Muslims are very aware of this and take advantage of it to impose themselves in an unequal way in European society It is human nature, some would say, to seek loopholes and advantage (fair, or unfair) for oneself.

Until Europe comes to terms with its own identity, I think it will have serious trouble with cultures and religions not compatible with its outlook - and either basically hand its territories to another culture, or if there is a turn-around actually stand for itself and its own culture.

Really? Blame the victim mentality?

 

[say what]

I get what you mean, but the Hadith is the official context explainer, if you may. It's not condoned by the vast majority of Muslims to go against it, with threat of being killed.

I'm definitely not saying that there aren't Muslims that are wonderful, sweet, moderate and contributors to society. I'm just saying that here in Europe, we're seeing a lot of issues with Muslims that are very orthodox and only socialize with other Muslims.

It bothers me that things are this way. My first girlfriend was a Muslim, and her name was Sara. She was the most wonderful, smart, sweet and beautiful girl I had ever known. Her brothers were all great to me, and her parents invited me over to eat with them. As soon as they found out that we were dating, they forced her to break up with me, and for her to never see me again. A year later, she was in a burka and set to be married to some guy from Lebanon that her parents knew. From what I've heard she still lives in my home town and is married with kids now. It hurts to know that just because I was from one culture and she was from another, we couldn't even socialize together. You could say that they're interpreting the religion wrong, but it's happening more often than you would like to see. Whenever I see a middle eastern girl without a hijab/burka I get surprised and happy, but it's not often I see it. Unfortunately.

I see what you're saying, but I would argue that this occurs in any religion/faith.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Really? Blame the victim mentality?

If they are victims, it is not of how they were received in Europe.

Many Muslims flee their own lands and head to Europe, because life in Muslim lands is so awful.

Well, as VanDyke can probably explain to you from his day to day life, Muslim communities are making Europe pretty awful. (Nice, non-extremist: ie, non-observant Muslims excepted).

 

[muir]

You're right as I see it. There are 109 verses in the very short Koran that condone violence against non-believers to achieve a global Muslims rule. The description of said violence (beheadings, hands being chopped off, etc.) and the practicality of the Koran is very frightening sometimes. Another very different thing from the Bible and the Koran is that Muslims believe that Muhammad wrote the Koran with the help of Archangel Gabriel, who was sent directly from God with the exact manuscript of the Koran. The Judeo-Christian Bible makes it clear that it was written by people, and that the text doesn't come from an angel or otherwise direct source from Heaven.

One of the main reasons that I'm asking this question is that we in Western Europe are having a lot of issues with violent and exclusive Muslims communities. They wear burkas and claim it's their right not to work, to engage in crime syndicates, and to exclaim all of us in the Western civilization as evil and corrupt. It terrifies me that very few Muslims have dared to speak up against this behavior, because the Koran and Hadith is very specific in its condemnation of non-believers - or infidels.

I think part of the problem is that muslim communities within the 'west' look at how our western governments keep attacking muslim countries and because they believe in the concept of a muslim 'Ummah' (global community) they see any attack on a muslim anywhere in the world as an attack on their community

before we crack down on muslim communities it might be worth us taking a look at whether or not we are justified morally to be attacking muslim countries all the time

Also the western governments often support the zionist israeli government which continues to murder palestinean civilians against international law. The US government for example provides the Israeli government with BILLIONS of dollars of US taxpayers money EVERY YEAR to enable its military domination of the palestinean people (this prevents proper negotiations occuring between the two peoples). You don't need to be a muslim to see the fault in that

 

[muir]

If they are victims, it is not of how they were received in Europe.

Many Muslims flee their own lands and head to Europe, because life in Muslim lands is so awful.

Well, as VanDyke can probably explain to you from his day to day life, Muslim communities are making Europe pretty awful. (Nice, non-extremist: ie, non-observant Muslims excepted).

Life is so awful in many muslim lands because they are constantly attacked by the west

The ones that aren't attacked by the west are being ruled by puppet dictators that have been put in power by the west and who are protected by the western governments preventing the spread of democracy in those countries

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Islam considers the first and the foremost basic right of a human being is the right to live, and equates the taking of even one human life unjustly, with killing all of humanity.

You're referring to a specific aspect of the Quran which only condones violence against non-Muslims during wartime combat. This is in reference to a letter from the Muslims in Medina to the pagans of Tabuk, in which the Muslims ask them to adhere to their peace treaties, or there will be open war. The Muslims offered amnesty to the pagans in the form of optional conversion instead of death- which is what has happened throughout history in Christianity.

Early Muslims, like Christians, were prosecuted for their faith by pagans. Thus the Quran condones the use of violence upon non-believers provided that violence is committed in the context of war- that is fighting to defend against perceived threats to their own faith. So yes, there is a reference in the Quran that promotes killing non-believers...but, if you talk to practising Muslims, you'll likely see that most ignore that, and promote the peaceful components of the Quran.

Islam is like any other religion, including Christianity- there are parts that are violent, and there are parts that are peaceful. It is up to the believer to take what they want from the readings, and practice accordingly. The unfortunate thing about Islam is that people only focus on the extremists and their interpretation of the Quran. But these individuals are a much small proportion of Muslims.

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Does this sound like tactics reserved for war-times?

 

[Skarekrow]

I get what you mean, but the Hadith is the official context explainer, if you may. It's not condoned by the vast majority of Muslims to go against it, with threat of being killed.

I'm definitely not saying that there aren't Muslims that are wonderful, sweet, moderate and contributors to society. I'm just saying that here in Europe, we're seeing a lot of issues with Muslims that are very orthodox and only socialize with other Muslims.

It bothers me that things are this way. My first girlfriend was a Muslim, and her name was Sara. She was the most wonderful, smart, sweet and beautiful girl I had ever known. Her brothers were all great to me, and her parents invited me over to eat with them. As soon as they found out that we were dating, they forced her to break up with me, and for her to never see me again. A year later, she was in a burka and set to be married to some guy from Lebanon that her parents knew. From what I've heard she still lives in my home town and is married with kids now. It hurts to know that just because I was from one culture and she was from another, we couldn't even socialize together. You could say that they're interpreting the religion wrong, but it's happening more often than you would like to see. Whenever I see a middle eastern girl without a hijab/burka I get surprised and happy, but it's not often I see it. Unfortunately.

I have to second what @say what said...

I have seen some very violent Christians...violent sects of Judaism even...

It is more the interpretation of what is written there than what is actually written I think...

During the times of the Crusades, no one (except for themselves) would equate a Christian with peace. It’s all relative.

A lot of it is cultural I think more than what the actual text says....
for example....take a look at the south in the US. They follow the same bible as the rest of the US...and yet, the culture there is different...some use the Bible to justify slavery, to justify segregation, shooting abortionists, hating and attacking homosexuals, even twisting the words to hate the poor.

Let’s take a look at the cultures that these extreme versions of Islam have come from...they are oftentimes violent toward women, gays, etc..etc...they use the Quran to back up the underlying beliefs that already existed in that society.

 

[say what]

If they are victims, it is not of how they were received in Europe.

Many Muslims flee their own lands and head to Europe, because life in Muslim lands is so awful.

Well, as VanDyke can probably explain to you from his day to day life, Muslim communities are making Europe pretty awful. (Nice, non-extremist: ie, non-observant Muslims excepted).

Funny, I know many Muslims that go back to their homelands and love it. They miss it, and are only here for a short period to attain more education. Well I am sure there are many Muslims that do flee, I don't think you can't discount the many Muslims that have the exact opposite perspective of their country.

People only focus on the negative proponents of the Middle East, Islam, and Muslims. This is only a portion of the picture- and is not accurate. It would be like focusing only on the crime ridden parts of Detroit, and saying that all America is like that. Sure, there is parts of America that are scary, horrible, violence, crime ridden, and awful - but there are MANY parts that are the exact opposite.

 

[say what]

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Does this sound like tactics reserved for war-times?

Yes.

 

[muir]

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Does this sound like tactics reserved for war-times?

Who do we see slaying people, taking them captive and besieging them in ambushes? It's modern day ISRAEL who behaves that way as well as the US and UK armed forces who occupy Iraq, Afghanistan and drone bomb Yemen and Pakhistan etc

The 'west' also supplies and funds al quaeda in wars in syria and libya; the 'west' is behind the extremism. The saudi royal family are close allies of the western corporatocracies and they support extremist wahhabism

Warning the following clip contains graphic images

[video=youtube;w5j9w189LGY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5j9w189LGY[/video]

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Life is so awful in many muslim lands because they are constantly attacked by the west

The ones that aren't attacked by the west are being ruled by puppet dictators that have been put in power by the west and who are protected by the western governments preventing the spread of democracy in those countries

Are there currently, or have there been in recent documented history (ie. documented by a relatively independent for of media) any Muslim countries, which have enjoyed both a stable, safe, peaceful society?

What I'm getting at is a more basic question: Islam seems to be a religion which has clear goals in dealing with opposition, but is it capable of cultivating a peaceful society. Can aggressive religion and way of life know how to handle situations with an absence of opposition? Or does peace just leave the the Muslim community looking for an opponent, even within its own ranks, to make sense of so many of the prescriptions of its religious books?

 

[Skarekrow]

Are there currently, or have there been in recent documented history (ie. documented by a relatively independent for of media) any Muslim countries, which have enjoyed both a stable, safe, peaceful society?

What I'm getting at is a more basic question: Islam seems to be a religion which has clear goals in dealing with opposition, but is it capable of cultivating a peaceful society. Can aggressive religion and way of life know how to handle situations with an absence of opposition? Or does peace just leave the the Muslim community looking for an opponent, even within its own ranks, to make sense of so many of the prescriptions of its religious books?

Many Muslims would probably say the exact same thing about Christian societies.

 

[j654dgj7]

I would ask you though if these 109 verses are not in relation to a specific context/portion of the Quran that is about Muslims fighting for the right to practice their own faith.

Some of them are, you're right. The language and orders of the Koran are very different from the Bible, though. It gives out a lot of judgement to cherry pick. The Koran is built up by suras, which are basically chapters. The first one is the longest, and last one is the shortest, it's not chronological. It has not been officially translated into English, I think because they see Muhammad's writings as too sacred, but here's an attempt from sura 5:

Sura 5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.” This friendship makes any Muslim a enemy of their own and deserving of the same fate as the unbeliever. This is because God does not guide an unjust people.

This was probably written after Muhammad had become disenchanted by the Jewish community in Yathrib, which later became the holy city of Medina. That could explain the anger. Here's a part of (probably) the angriest of the suras, sura 9:

Sura 9:5: "When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful.

Historians seem to agree that this was written after a major confrontation between the Muslim forces and the Pagan forces.

I understand the context of Muslim history, but I have two problems with it in a modern perspective:

1) Muslims believe that the suras are timeless and come directly from God. So when Muhammad preaches to slay idolaters, it's a rule that has to be followed forever. You can't say that what God tells you directly is incorrect if you're a Muslim, because the word Islam means "to surrender" to God.

2) The Koran and Hadith specifically forbids people from apostasy - leaving the religion, or not following it's rules. Many countries in the Middle East punish apostasy with the death penalty. The Hadith and at least one paragraph in the Koran says that you cannot change the suras, or interpret them in any other way than the Hadith tells you to.

Wow, I'm coming across as very anti-Muslim. I don't mean to, I swear. I don't discriminate on religion or belief, it just makes me sad when so many young people are clumped into these deeply criminal, violent gangs because of what religion they all belong to. There must be some justification for their parents and themselves not to interfere, is all I'm thinking.

 

[say what]

.. it just makes me sad when so many young people are clumped into these deeply criminal, violent gangs because of what religion they all belong to. There must be some justification for their parents and themselves not to interfere, is all I'm thinking.

I agree this is sad. It's sad when any young person is forced to choose a gang and a life of violence.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Who do we see slaying people, taking them captive and besieging them in ambushes? It's modern day ISRAEL who behaves that way as well as the US and UK armed forces who occupy Iraq, Afghanistan and drone bomb Yemen and Pakhistan etc

The 'west' also supplies and funds al quaeda in wars in syria and libya; the 'west' is behind the extremism. The saudi royal family are close allies of the western corporatocracies and they support extremist wahhabism

The US and Israel might be worse, they do it for money.
I wonder what Muslims do it for?

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Many Muslims would probably say the exact same thing about Christian societies.

I think they would say much worse. Mind you, there aren't really any Christian societies left.

 

[muir]

Are there currently, or have there been in recent documented history (ie. documented by a relatively independent for of media) any Muslim countries, which have enjoyed both a stable, safe, peaceful society?

What I'm getting at is a more basic question: Islam seems to be a religion which has clear goals in dealing with opposition, but is it capable of cultivating a peaceful society. Can aggressive religion and way of life know how to handle situations with an absence of opposition? Or does peace just leave the the Muslim community looking for an opponent, even within its own ranks, to make sense of so many of the prescriptions of its religious books?

Yes there are peaceful muslim countries

Now can you name me some western countries that haven't been at war in the last 70 or so years? I'm sure you could name many that have been in constant war

In fact isn;t it the western countries that have placed the world under the constant threat of nuclear annhilation?