[PUG] Israel belongs to the Jews/Palestinians?

[acd]

Israel doesn't have the biggest army, in fact its pretty small, but they do have the BEST army. They could take out pretty much anyone anywhere no problem.

As for my take, I believe it is the land of the Jews, i believe that God did in fact give it to them. Say what you will but I stand by my beliefs.

Did God give them the right to barge into that land and tear down Palestinian homes and deny them food sources and medical care?

Look up some of the horrific things that are going on there, is God commanding those actions? No doubt, it's a violent place. Wherever violence reigns, there is God. Just my take, though.

 

[JShafer]

I'm not saying they're doing what they're supposed to or as they're commanded, but I do believe that God gave them the land.

 

[acd]

I'm not saying they're doing what they're supposed to or as they're commanded, but I do believe that God gave them the land.

This is why religion is dangerous. Often used to justify oppressing and victimizing a population of people.

If God gave them the land, then why don't they have it? Why is it such a monstrous ordeal? It's because God didn't give them anything, because God does not exist. And, it's irresponsible to make decrees on entire countries and territories, heck, the world: Because an invisible being said so.

 

[JShafer]

I'm not going to turn this into a religious discussion but I would be glad to discuss it further. Send me a PM if you wish to talk about it.

 

[acd]

I'm not going to turn this into a religious discussion but I would be glad to discuss it further. Send me a PM if you wish to talk about it.

It kind of is a religious discussion, because you mentioned the land belongs to the Jews as God has decreed it.

But ok. I'll end this here if you don't want to talk about it any more.

 

[bamf]

It's fair to say that the British were to blame. Sorry everyone.

^^^This^^^

They screwed up the whole situation. Promised the Palestinians freedom if they fought for them; they fought for them; Britain started to let Jews settle in the area without much protest from the Palestinians; the British promised not to let Zionist Jews set up camp; the British let Zionists set up camp; Palestinians responded with violence; peace was made; Zionist Jews took up arms against the Palestinians; peace broke; WWII; UN declares Israel pre-Six day war boundaries...yada yada yada. (somewhere in there a two state solution was offered but the Palestinians turned it down, despite support from the Jews)

The whole situation is fucked (excuse my language, but it's true). Both sides act stupid, both sides act atrociously and commit war crimes. Both sides are to blame. Religious zealots ftw.

(and that's a great documentary acd/NAI)

 

[JShafer]

It kind of is a religious discussion, because you mentioned the land belongs to the Jews as God has decreed it.

But ok. I'll end this here if you don't want to talk about it any more.

Yes, it is, but it would be pointless for us to go back and forth about this here. As I said I'm glad to discuss it further using PM's.

 

[DefectiveCreative]

Currently I favour a two state solution, with Jerusalem being declared an independent city-state.

I won't make a call on who it "belongs" to, but I believe it needs to be secular.

Well officially speaking Israel is secular, in that there isn't a state religion and free expression of religion is protected by law.

Jews do of course make up the majority of the population, but even amongst those most consider themselves either secular or non-traditional/non-conformist Jews. The conservative and fundamentalist Jews make up a powerful and very vocal minority.

Because of that most of the support the hard-liners get isn't on religious grounds, it's due to issues of security, and IMO the worst thing the Palestinians ever did for themselves was react to the occupation with violence towards civilians. It pretty much killed international support for them and pushed the liberals and moderates in Israel into the arms of the extremists.

Israel doesn't have the biggest army, in fact its pretty small, but they do have the BEST army. They could take out pretty much anyone anywhere no problem.

If you mean they could take out anyone outside of the middle east then I'm afraid that's not even close to being the case.

 

[NeverAmI]

Well officially speaking Israel is secular, in that there isn't a state religion and free expression of religion is protected by law.

Ahh thanks, I looked into it a bit. The Law of Return plus the national label of "Jewish" on birth certificates rather than "Israeli" is definitely ambiguous. Also the whole "Jewish but not jewish" ethnicity thing.

Because of that most of the support the hard-liners get isn't on religious grounds, it's due to issues of security, and IMO the worst thing the Palestinians ever did for themselves was react to the occupation with violence towards civilians. It pretty much killed international support for them and pushed the liberals and moderates in Israel into the arms of the extremists.

I am certain that wasn't the beginning of the conflict nor do I doubt the aggressors weren't provoked. I have also heard they have basically nowhere to go, no one wants them. Not sure on the truth of that.

In regards to the rationality that Palestinians should have just laid down and followed the absurdity, I don't blame anyone for fighting for their home, or those they lost.

Come try to take my land, see what happens...


Directed at no one in particular:

Got a few crazy religious idiots on both sides acting like 5 year olds and everyone else suffers because of it. The whole situation gives me a headache.

Israel has a big army cause America bought it for them. And we wonder why Middle-Easterners hate America? They aren't jealous of our boomboxes and 'cool' TVs, they are pissed because the weapons that blew up their extended family and the Catepilars that tear down their homes might as well say "Paid for by the U.S.A. Providing jobs to Americans! FUCK YEA!"

The fact that our politicians and corporations are salivating over their natural resources and land doesn't help either.

Take my words with a grain of salt, but if Isreal is seriously pullin some shit, they better realize that this is the information age now, evidence isn't as easy to maintain. Unless our government can grab the internet by the balls, then the truth will eventually come out.

I don't buy it for a second that either side is just a victim in terms of those directly involved in the fray. As these geniuses have so eloquantly noticed, death+death doesn't equate to peace. I guess they will just have to wait until they are dead to see which side their same God is truly pissing on. There are TONS of victims caught on both sides though. Meanwhile, our corporations and weapons development agencies are making bank, FUCK YEA!

JOBS FOR AMERICANS!



Err, sorry. My rant is over, hehe.

 

[Morgain]

when I came back from my trip to Jordan I have been reading the book of Queen Noor, the American wife of Hoesein, king of Jordan

Although the book is ofcourse political biased I couldn't but notice to endless patience and hope for peace that this king has shown in his struggle for the Palestine rights. Half of the people living in Jordan nowadays are refuged palestinians. People are still living in tents even after 40 years living in Jordan. Still hoping they can return to there former homes, still wearing the key of there house around there neck. I can't imagine how it must be to live a life of a refuge for so long. I mean, if it would have happened to me, that means that my parents where driven from there homes when they where 10 years old, I would have been born in the refuge camp, lived there whole my life and I wouldn't have any hope that the lives of my childeren would be any better. I think the possibility is very high that I had snapped and did something agressive out of hopelesness.

Although the book obviously only shows the good stuff, it is still a truth that king Hoesein has done a lot to rebuild the peace in that area. But she said that Israel hasn't done anything to help the homeless Palestines. They refused to give back the areas that where given to the Palestines, they refused to listen to the UN resolution that they have to give it back or at least stop building new settelments.
She also states that Israel has been deliberately irritating its neabour countries to get them so far that they start a war so that Israel was allowed to fight back and gain even more of the land.
Hoesein has tried so hard to negociate with Israel and the US but has never been treaded fairly, and blamed by other arabic countries for even wanting to talk with them. You can say that queen Noor was biased and not smart enough to think for herself, but I believe she is a very smart compasionate women and from what I read from her, her husband was too.

It is like israel doesn't want to solve the problem, they just want more land and do everything to gain that. They will never want peace, not the kind of peace where both parties gain something. It is there way or the highway and nothing can stop them. I wonder if that is what is written in the Tora about caring for other people???!!! If that is, then the book is nothing better then Mein Kampf

 

[NeverAmI]

Another thing that I wonder about is the fact that every time the topic of Israel comes up, the conversation seems to revert to either the holocaust or Religion. If Israel is secular, then why is "God's Plan" even relevant?

The holocaust is over, Hitler is dead, the racist skinheads in America have a combind IQ of, what? 15? I think they are pretty safe from neo-nazis.

And if they want to say some sort of Arab Nazi nation is being born, well, they are certainly welcome to explain their arguments in a rational way.

Either admit to being a religious nation completely based on religion, or leave religion out of the argument entirely.

 

[Jasmine85]

I'll be first to admit that I don't follow current affairs in any great detail, but it seems to me that the two sides don't want to find peace; each will only be content with the annihilation of the other.

I don't believe peace will ever come to those lands through diplomacy, only through the finality of all out war, or somehow through an external agent souring the milk they're fighting over.

 

[ENTroP]

I'm watching a documentary about the Jews in

what do you think, does Israel realy belongs the the Jews or does it belongs to the Palestinians?

The situation is thusly: Israel is a secular and democratic state, which has a violent minority of extremist muslims that will resort to suicide bombing to intimidate Israel into giving up more land. No matter how much land has been ceded, they continue to demand more.

"The Oslo accords are comparable to when the Prophet Mohammed made the Khudaibiya agreement...we must learn from his steps...We respect agreements the way that the Prophet Mohammed respected the agreements which he signed." -Yassir Arafat

Mohammed in fact breached the agreement, pillaging Mecca and killing many of its citizens with whom he had come to the "peace" agreement.

The government in Israel wants peace, and is more than happy to afford anyone living there with basic human rights. Apparently, this is not enough.

 

[ENTroP]

The Israel bashing I've noticed on this thread forgets to take into account the fact that the muslims that suicide bomb their way to glory there, are the same brand of terrorist that flew planes into the world trade center.

Regardless of biblical nonsense, Israel is an oasis of technology and western thinking in a sea of backwards, violent, sharia law driven Islamic Arab countries.

In addition, there is another minority of crazy ass religious jews that don't help matters, either. The world would be a far better place if people stopped differentiating and segregating one another into tribes based on religious stupidity, and accepted one another as fellow human beings.

Until then, those that respect treaties are the ones I will side with, both being equally stupid.

 

[DefectiveCreative]

I am certain that wasn't the beginning of the conflict nor do I doubt the aggressors weren't provoked. I have also heard they have basically nowhere to go, no one wants them. Not sure on the truth of that.

I didn't say it was the beginning, I just said it was the main reason why the Jewish hard-liners in Israel get most of the support they do from the main population.

In regards to the rationality that Palestinians should have just laid down and followed the absurdity, I don't blame anyone for fighting for their home, or those they lost.

Come try to take my land, see what happens...

Note that I said that it was the targeting of civilians that caused those issues, not the fact that they responded with violence at all. Although, I will add that amongst others both Gandhi and the civil rights movement in America showed that it is possible to overcome even incredibly violent oppression via non-violent means of protest.

The holocaust is over, Hitler is dead, the racist skinheads in America have a combind IQ of, what? 15? I think they are pretty safe from neo-nazis.

The fear that because it happened once before it can happen again is not entirely unreasonable, bear in mind that Germany was a democratic nation that voted the Nazi party into power of its own free will, without the need for coercion. Also don't forget that there are people still around today who were victims of and eye-witnesses to the horrors of the holocaust, so it's still very much a living memory for the Jewish people.

That's not to say that I agree with the tendency of Jews outside of Israel to give that country unwavering and unquestioning support no matter what it does, but I do understand why they do it, and it'll probably take a couple of generations for that fear to dissipate.

 

[NeverAmI]

What up ENTroP! Long time no see.

The Israel bashing I've noticed on this thread forgets to take into account the fact that the muslims that suicide bomb their way to glory there, are the same brand of terrorist that flew planes into the world trade center.

Regardless of biblical nonsense, Israel is an oasis of technology and western thinking in a sea of backwards, violent, sharia law driven Islamic Arab countries.

Sharia Law and the spread of it scares the shit out of me. If they try to spread it through warfare they will be annihilated, they know that.

I am not bashing Israel, I am calling it how I see it. I don't know what they are up to, I don't know what my own fucking government is up to! All this black ops/behind the scenes/ fuck with every single country then have blowback and make the citizens suffer the wrath is all BS.

I am not even fully convinced 9/11 went down in any way like the government would have us believe. Why? Not because of circumstantial evidence but rather the fact that it happened with a bunch of crooks in the White House. They LIED TO US on numerous occasions! We just shrug?

Oh that's just our gov'ment *giggle* THEY R SILLY!!!

And why the HELL do we go fight a war overseas when a bunch of IDIOTS flew planes into our OWN buildings? Where the hell is the security??? Why didn't we spend those billions of dollars on national defense or at least a pay raise for the chimpanzee they must have hired to watch the radars? Where is all this money coming from anyway???

Naw, instead we say taking the offensive and fighting a bunch of loosely-linked "turr-ists" and forcing a new government to instill freedom *giggle* is the answer to all our (and their) problems.

Oh yea, lets give them a gold-star.

I just really get tired of the convolution and the BS because America is going to shit and I don't want to be held accountable for a bunch of stuff that the government hides from everyone.

My problem isn't with Israel simply because it is Israel. My problem is with their potential actions. I can't say whether they actually are doing any of what is portrayed; how can any of us pretend to know the true facts unless we have been there and seen it, including the past.

I think the common idea here is that both sides need to grow the F up.

Edit: As for the suicide bombers, I am sure if the US supplied them with jets, missiles, and caterpillars they wouldn't have resorted to such measures. I see most of them throwing rocks cause they have nothing else.

 

[NeverAmI]

Note that I said that it was the targeting of civilians that caused those issues, not the fact that they responded with violence at all. Although, I will add that amongst others both Gandhi and the civil rights movement in America showed that it is possible to overcome even incredibly violent oppression via non-violent means of protest.

Well said!

The fear that because it happened once before it can happen again is not entirely unreasonable, bear in mind that Germany was a democratic nation that voted the Nazi party into power of its own free will, without the need for coercion. Also don't forget that there are people still around today who were victims of and eye-witnesses to the horrors of the holocaust, so it's still very much a living memory for the Jewish people.

Yea, but they can give us facts instead of feelings. If they are going to be their own nation it is time to put away the pull-ups and wear big-boy underwear.

 

[muir]

I think the israeli and the palestinian people are both victims of power

I think until people can get to grips with the problem of power then it will continue to cause problems regardless of which person or people it is working through at any given time

As long as power is concentrated it will exploit others. It doesn't matter what uniform power wears or whether it wears a uniform at all, it is all part of the same poison

Whether it is in the family, in the work place, in society or between countries, power continues to cause pain, humiliation and oppression

Power doesn't recognise respect between people, it sees only inequality and opportunities to exploit and it will continue until systems are established to diffuse it

People of whatever religion, colour, nation, sexual preference, all need to recognise that they are not each others enemies. It is the powerful who exploit the people and turn everyone against each other. Until the people recognise this they will continue to be pawns

If the meek can recognise what it is that they are facing and tackle power then perhaps one day they can inherit the earth; until then they will continue as slaves to power

 

[bamf]

I hate to see people blaming one side over the other, it really just shows a lack of understanding of the situation...although I admit it's a crazy situation to even try and begin to understand.

Israelis and Palestinians are to blame. I'd say it's 50-50. Maybe one side has done more than the other, maybe one side hasn't, but playing the blame game and ignoring the other's concessions makes it square across the board.

Also I'd like to remind people that Palestine actually turned down an assimilation solution (or it might have been a two state solution...but I think it was assimilation) prior to the 6 day war in 1967. It was actually a rather popular idea (and at the time the populations were roughly equal, therefor ensuring equal access to the law/politics), however the leaders of the Palestinian movement (not sure which one, my memory is rusty) turned it down because they were banking on a United Arabic Republic that was to be founded by surrounding Arab states like Jordan, Egypt and Syria (to name a few).

The Palestinians felt that if they joined Israel, the surrounding Arab nations would eventually destroy Israel and that they'd be destroyed with the Israelis, and they also wanted more land.

To make matters even more sticky was that Jordan and Egypt supported Palestinian sovereignty, but refused to grant it to them in lands of overwhelming Palestinian populations. The Palestinians never would have had the West Bank, or Gaza; instead their land would have to come out of Israel.

Israel wouldn't have this (it'd make their nation, which at the time was about 2/3 the size it is now, even smaller...not to mention they were worried about upcoming wars. If the Palestinians were afraid of getting destroyed by the people that supported them, the Israelis had to have felt that the threat was imminent as well) and neither would the Palestinians. Instead it broke the Palestinian movement up even further creating small radical sects that got ample amounts of attention.

The small radical Jewish sects didn't help the situation either. It's basically a conflict of two radical extremes, run by a few hundred, maybe thousand people, with the rest of the population forced to choose sides.

I think the real hope for the situation comes in future generations who will see the bullshit for what it is.

But please, don't say it's one side's fault or the other. It's way too complicated for that.

 

[Shai Gar]

I'm watching a documentary about the Jews in Israel. It is a documentary where a Belgian journalist spend a week with all the major religions to give us an impression on how it is to believe in that religion. We have had islam (haven't seen that), zenboedism, christianity (nunnery), hara krisna, hindouism and now judaism.

In every religion I could find some values and rituals where I could find myself in, and in which I could see the purpose and also the resemblance between all religions. There are so many simularities, the ways are different but the goal is the same, contact with god and your inner self, finding purpose in your life. But this is the first documentary that really pisses me of. she follows some Belgian/Dutch people who converted to judaism and are now living in Israel. My God they don't even belong to "the people of God" and still they are talking like they do. Judea belongs to the jews because the name says it, it is always been there land. He lives in the part that has been assigned to the palestinians and he doesn't see any problems in it because "this piece of land has always been ours (ours???) and "do you see any Palestinians living here now?" When he hears moslim prayers he gets mad because they are saying rubbish to THERE God and start praying himself because otherwise he loses contact with his God. The moske and the temple can't stand next to eachother, there can't be any other building next to the new temple. The rebuilding of the temple will mean the start of world peace :shocked:

and not once he acknowledge the fact that on the other side of the Jordan milions of people are still (after 40 years) living in tents...

what do you think, does Israel realy belongs the the Jews or does it belongs to the Palestinians?

Please ox the spelling mistakes.