- MBTI
- INFJ again
- Enneagram
- 4w5
If English had some logical spelling rules, I wouldn't have so much trouble with spelling... and the spelling checker is down so to bad for you ...
[PUG] Israel belongs to the Jews/Palestinians?
- Thread starter Morgain
- Start date
S
Shai Gar
*fix
- MBTI
- .
- Enneagram
- .
I think it is a major mistake to equate the religious aspirations of the people of the middle east with their political aspirations. As long as the Arab states maintain governments that trample the rights of their citizens (no matter how justified that trampling may be given the socio-economic realities) Israel is politically astute in not trusting them. The most important move that the western economies can make in stabilizing the entire region is to lower the value of crude oil. We can bitch and moan about the cruelties of the Israeli occupation but until we neuter the Oil Bull in the china shop nothing will change.
- MBTI
- INXP
Krumplenump
Community Member
- MBTI
- eftagawrg
Ah, but it's not Gawd-forsaken, is it, since the Jews think it's their god given right to own it.. In essence the only reason both sides claim it is because they say their proof that it belongs to them is because their scriptures say so. So if, once again, religion didn't play a role in this issue then neither side would have a reason to claim it and a solution would therefore be able to be rationally discussed.
The use of a religious warrant to claim land is what is causing endless strife and provides a supposedly indisputable basis from which to fight.
Krumplenump
Community Member
- MBTI
- eftagawrg
Well the continued construction of Israeli houses on former Palestinian sites is a direct interpretation of their supposed god-given right to usurp anyone non-Jewish. The justification for a lot of hard-line Jews, especially concerning the property developments, is religious scripture. I mean they have a grave yard strategically placed on the border in front of the Dome of the Rock so when they are risen from the dead, they they can assault it and reclaim it for the Jews. People actually vie for a plot in this graveyard so they can be one of the horde. I mean wtf.
Hezbollah means army of God basically so they're no better in their motive or justification.
In short, if the religious warrant for TOTAL control of specifically Jerusalem was removed from both sides, then both sides could get what they deserve - a fair share of it.
In fact it would be good if someone blew up the Dome of the Rock and be done with it.
Last edited:
Krumplenump
Community Member
- MBTI
- eftagawrg
It's as all-out as it can get already. The Palestinians do not have an organised army to field or throw into 'all out' war.
Krumplenump
Community Member
- MBTI
- eftagawrg
Oh, like Israel taking over every inch of what remains in Palstinian hands?
I guess if the Dome of the rock was destroyed they might do that, seeing it as their chance to snatch the land it was built on and build one of their own shrines on it.
The international community would unlikely abide that, but they'de never intervene militarily to stop Israel.
Iin that case it wold good if aliens vapourised the dome of the rock so no-one could blame each other.
DefectiveCreative
Donor
- MBTI
- INFP
- Enneagram
- 4w5 so/sx
As Apostelytizer and I have both tried to indicate, the religious aspect of the conflict between Israel and Palestine is a minority one, by far the main issue is one of security, and it always has been, as can be seen by analysing how it is the situation got to where it is today (at least, how I understand it):
After the 2nd World War the Jews in Europe felt that they simply couldn't trust the nations they were citizens of anymore. Understandable, seeing as like I said earlier Germany had been a democratic nation that had freely chosen to vote the Nazis into power, and most of the rest of the European nations had basically done nothing to help them when they were being oppressed (and on top of that Stalin was continuing to oppress the Jews in the Soviet territories).
So, they campaigned for a homeland of their own where such things could never happen again. The allied nations agreed with this idea and chose the area of Israel for the new homeland (arguably for two main reasons: it was away from Europe so it would be someone else's problem, and of course because it's the historical home of the Jewish people, which is as much a historical fact as it is a religious sentiment).
The Arabs already living there felt betrayed and outraged at the thought of having to give up their land to the Jewish settlers, especially seeing as the UK had promised them that land for their co-operation during the war.
When Israel declared its independence in 1948 the governments of the surrounding Arab nations declared war, and the following series of wars between Israel and its neighbours resulted in Israel permanently occupying certain territory, particularly in Palestine. (The UN considers this territory to be illegally occupied, hence their continued insistence that Israel withdraw from those lands).
But the Israelis, afraid that they still might be forced out of their (as they see it) one safe haven by the surrounding Arab nations, and also concerned about continued acts of violence against them in and from the occupied territories, maintain that their national security relies upon their continued occupation of those lands.
At the same time the Palestinians and the other Arab nations see the occupation as illegal and oppressive, and the Palestinian population in particular, much like their Israeli counterparts, have turned to the hard-liners, who seem to them the most able to protect them.
The religious issue certainly plays its part in all this, especially when it comes to Jerusalem, because it's the ranks of the hard-liners that contain the religious fundamentalists and conservatives on both sides. So those groups derive their power from the backing of the people who have turned to them for security, and they use that power to further their own religious agendas, which quite often tie in with the political agendas of the secular types that make up the rest of the hard-line factions.
For example, the Jewish settlers in the occupied territories tend to be religious conservatives and fundamentalists. There are a few reasons for this but two of the main ones are that: those groups are simply more driven than the moderates and liberals and so are more willing to take the risk of living on such dangerous land. And the other is that some of them believe that it's their religious duty to have as large a family as possible in order to drive out the Arabs through sheer weight of numbers, which ties in neatly with the secular hard-liners desire for the same end.
IMO if the conflict is to be resolved it will not happen by addressing the religious issues between the two nations, at least not at first. It will only happen by addressing the security issues they both have. When/if that's done the populations of those nations will almost certainly withdraw their support from the hard-liners because they will feel that they don't need them anymore, and therefore the religious hard-liners will lose their current power and influence also, which will make it far easier to then resolve any remaining religious issues.
After the 2nd World War the Jews in Europe felt that they simply couldn't trust the nations they were citizens of anymore. Understandable, seeing as like I said earlier Germany had been a democratic nation that had freely chosen to vote the Nazis into power, and most of the rest of the European nations had basically done nothing to help them when they were being oppressed (and on top of that Stalin was continuing to oppress the Jews in the Soviet territories).
So, they campaigned for a homeland of their own where such things could never happen again. The allied nations agreed with this idea and chose the area of Israel for the new homeland (arguably for two main reasons: it was away from Europe so it would be someone else's problem, and of course because it's the historical home of the Jewish people, which is as much a historical fact as it is a religious sentiment).
The Arabs already living there felt betrayed and outraged at the thought of having to give up their land to the Jewish settlers, especially seeing as the UK had promised them that land for their co-operation during the war.
When Israel declared its independence in 1948 the governments of the surrounding Arab nations declared war, and the following series of wars between Israel and its neighbours resulted in Israel permanently occupying certain territory, particularly in Palestine. (The UN considers this territory to be illegally occupied, hence their continued insistence that Israel withdraw from those lands).
But the Israelis, afraid that they still might be forced out of their (as they see it) one safe haven by the surrounding Arab nations, and also concerned about continued acts of violence against them in and from the occupied territories, maintain that their national security relies upon their continued occupation of those lands.
At the same time the Palestinians and the other Arab nations see the occupation as illegal and oppressive, and the Palestinian population in particular, much like their Israeli counterparts, have turned to the hard-liners, who seem to them the most able to protect them.
The religious issue certainly plays its part in all this, especially when it comes to Jerusalem, because it's the ranks of the hard-liners that contain the religious fundamentalists and conservatives on both sides. So those groups derive their power from the backing of the people who have turned to them for security, and they use that power to further their own religious agendas, which quite often tie in with the political agendas of the secular types that make up the rest of the hard-line factions.
For example, the Jewish settlers in the occupied territories tend to be religious conservatives and fundamentalists. There are a few reasons for this but two of the main ones are that: those groups are simply more driven than the moderates and liberals and so are more willing to take the risk of living on such dangerous land. And the other is that some of them believe that it's their religious duty to have as large a family as possible in order to drive out the Arabs through sheer weight of numbers, which ties in neatly with the secular hard-liners desire for the same end.
IMO if the conflict is to be resolved it will not happen by addressing the religious issues between the two nations, at least not at first. It will only happen by addressing the security issues they both have. When/if that's done the populations of those nations will almost certainly withdraw their support from the hard-liners because they will feel that they don't need them anymore, and therefore the religious hard-liners will lose their current power and influence also, which will make it far easier to then resolve any remaining religious issues.
Last edited:
- MBTI
- .
- Enneagram
- .
The Defective Creative sums this up nicely. The religious aspects of this situation are, for me, very disturbing. Various political power bases in different countries have grown used to manipulating their constituencies with religious arguments. As a result true religious fanatics have gained positions of power. Here in the US, the willingness of the pro Israel folks to embrace the Armageddon crowd is particularly disturbing.
Last edited:
- MBTI
- INFP
- Enneagram
- 5w4
Agreed.
This is a fairly interesting article on the situation. Can't speak for the credibility of it.
http://baltimorechronicle.com/2010/031210Lendman.shtml
Last edited:
Krumplenump
Community Member
- MBTI
- eftagawrg
lol to the 6 who voted 'to the Jews, God said it is their land'
Barnabas
Time Lord
- MBTI
- wiblywobly
- Enneagram
- timeywimey
Well there arn't any other options for saying it's the Jew's land.
just me
Well-known member
- MBTI
- infj
Possession is nine tenths of the law, as some would say. Politics is trying to dictate, so why not religion? Some politics actually are based on religion over there.
Fast forward a few years into the arena and look at it
There are those that are dead set on the destruction of Israel and those that live there. The Dome is doomed in that scenario. Think about it. Do they (those set against Israel) really care about the religious part of it or is it for other reasons they do not want the people to understand? Other reasons, I postulate. Otherwise, they would surely understand the destruction of the Dome. The Israelis are not the attackers and would dwell in peace if left alone. They are now being threatened by a world power with nuclear programs being hidden from the world, supplying terrorist organizations across the globe to kill and destroy Jewish establishments, and setting into motion a power play to force the Israelis to use their might for survival. When they use it, they will be condemned by much of the world for using it. They will have no other choice for their own survival.
They have been abused for centuries and will not stand for it again. The true intent of the aggressors of Israeli interests will show its colors before all is said and done
Washington is pulling strings that will force Israeli retaliation of their own kind, and Washington is playing with fire. The IRG are sponsoring worldwide terrorism while most everyone pays it little to no mind. They are arming everyone that wants the Israelis gone, except some here, of course.
It is a sad state of affairs. Sorry for the rant, but there wasn't a choice for that, either.
Fast forward a few years into the arena and look at it
There are those that are dead set on the destruction of Israel and those that live there. The Dome is doomed in that scenario. Think about it. Do they (those set against Israel) really care about the religious part of it or is it for other reasons they do not want the people to understand? Other reasons, I postulate. Otherwise, they would surely understand the destruction of the Dome. The Israelis are not the attackers and would dwell in peace if left alone. They are now being threatened by a world power with nuclear programs being hidden from the world, supplying terrorist organizations across the globe to kill and destroy Jewish establishments, and setting into motion a power play to force the Israelis to use their might for survival. When they use it, they will be condemned by much of the world for using it. They will have no other choice for their own survival.
They have been abused for centuries and will not stand for it again. The true intent of the aggressors of Israeli interests will show its colors before all is said and done
Washington is pulling strings that will force Israeli retaliation of their own kind, and Washington is playing with fire. The IRG are sponsoring worldwide terrorism while most everyone pays it little to no mind. They are arming everyone that wants the Israelis gone, except some here, of course.
It is a sad state of affairs. Sorry for the rant, but there wasn't a choice for that, either.
beetpoet
Community Member
- MBTI
- infj
i often puzzle over this too. i guess being the target of horrible prejudice doesn't necessarily mean you won't perpetuate it yourself.
i travelled there in the 1980s and was surprised by the checkpoints, soldiers, etc then. because i had dark curly hair and a more tan complexion at the time i was often asked to step aside and show papers, while young people pointed guns at me. and i saw the anxiousness in palestinian co-travellers about getting home before curfew. it was the first time i'd visited an occupied country and it was an eye opener.
my mom and my best friend are jewish and many other friends. still i don't think i can ever fully fathom the devastation of the jewish people in history.
i also live in the same town as rachel corrie (killed by an israeli bulldozer while peacefully protecting a palestinian doctor's home) i've read her words and her parents carry on her work and i agree with it. i think the world should take a stand about people homes, wells, orchards etc being destroyed and having to live as second class citizens in their own land.
i don't know the answer, except for people who share that land somehow being able to really hear one another's stories and pain. and to care enough about each other to try to make it an equal country - like south africa after apartheid.
and i hold a hope/prayer/whatever for peace.
another good documentary: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0277039/
Documentarian Ra'anan Alexandrowicz accompanies a Palestinian tour group on a three-day sight-seeing trip to Israel.
just me
Well-known member
- MBTI
- infj
There is a book by James Carroll named "Constantine's Sword". It will help you to better see, though not all-encompassing.