J vs P differences

[Artsu Tharaz]

This makes some sense but I don't know why you would call Fi a rational function. Or maybe I'm perceiving Fi in the wrong manner.

Well, either Fi or "rational".

Rational as in a sort of reasoning process; in the case of Fi it's to do with values/an internal feeling,
as opposed to a logical sort of rationalisation (i.e. Ti). Basically, rational means process oriented, or
"decision making", as opposed to irrational functions which "see" something and react accordingly.

 

[88chaz88]

Look, J and P are the easiest to spot in people. Just let someone tell you to do something.

A J type will most commonly be direct. "Do the washing up, please." Even INFJs do this.

A P type will be less direct in doing so. "Could you do the washing up?"

Of course this isn't perfect, not only do they need to not be thinking about how they're phrasing (INFJs would usually use the second way if they were) but both ISTP and INTP tend to speak in a judging way.

It's still easy to see in someone though. Js are rigid, direct, and controlling whereas Ps are fluid, indirect, and for lack of a better word, uncontrolling.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

Basically, you end up saying there that it's probably more indicative of T vs. F...

 

[KazeCraven]

This makes some sense but I don't know why you would call Fi a rational function. Or maybe I'm perceiving Fi in the wrong manner.

The main note is probably what Jung meant by rational, so I'll give a description from 'Fe' to give you an idea:

The valuations resulting from the act of feeling either correspond directly with objective values or at least chime in with certain traditional and generally known standards of value. ...Without this feeling, for instance, a beautiful and harmonious sociability would be unthinkable. So far extraverted feeling is just as beneficent and rationally effective as extraverted thinking.

Also, the following is in reference to Fi and Ti:

Both the foregoing types are rational, since they are founded upon reasoning, judging functions.

Also, here's something that might give you an idea of what he means by 'Fi':

Thus, basic ideas such as God, freedom, immortality are just as much feeling-values as they are significant as ideas. Everything, therefore, that has been said of the introverted thinking refers equally to introverted feeling, only here everything is felt while there it was thought. But the fact that thoughts can generally be expressed more intelligibly than feelings demands a more than ordinary descriptive or artistic capacity before the real wealth of this feeling can be even approximately [p. 491] presented or communicated to the outer world.

So, essentially Jung is saying that Feeling is rational because it makes discernments based on a valid way of making decisions. Someone who decides something with a well-differentiated Feeling function has something reasonable for others to follow. I am quite sure this is very distinct from deciding based on an emotional outburst. If that is using introverted Feeling, it is a case where the user is no longer controlling it, making it a crude expression of what it could be.

Also, as a counter, here is irrationality:

I call the two preceding types irrational for reasons already referred to; namely, because their commissions and omissions are based not upon reasoned judgment but upon the absolute intensity of perception. Their perception is concerned with simple happenings, where no selection has been exercised by the judgment.

 

[not sure]

So, essentially Jung is saying that Feeling is rational because it makes discernments based on a valid way of making decisions. Someone who decides something with a well-differentiated Feeling function has something reasonable for others to follow. I am quite sure this is very distinct from deciding based on an emotional outburst. If that is using introverted Feeling, it is a case where the user is no longer controlling it, making it a crude expression of what it could be.

Also, as a counter, here is irrationality:

Originally Posted by Jung
I call the two preceding types irrational for reasons already referred to; namely, because their commissions and omissions are based not upon reasoned judgment but upon the absolute intensity of perception. Their perception is concerned with simple happenings, where no selection has been exercised by the judgment.

It seems like something is missing. Are the two preceding irrational types that Jung refers to S/N?

 

[KazeCraven]

It seems like something is missing. Are the two preceding irrational types that Jung refers to S/N?

He is referring to the extraverted irrational types (Se-dominant and Ne-dominant).

 

[Limit]

*nods*

Understanding what irrational and rational actually mean in these contexts will probably clear it up.

Rational, like what KazeCraven is saying, is just the ability to decide and judge.
Irrational is explaining how these functions are deprived of being able to decide and judge.

Therefore, your Thinking and Feeling (which I remind you, both have their own extraverted and introverted preferences) decide and judge, while your irrational functions, Sensing and Intuition (which I remind you, both have their own extraverted and introverted preferences), gather information and perceive.

So Perceivers:
Introverted Perceivers (Commonly referred to as Pi):
INFJ, ISFJ, INTJ, ISTJ
Extraverted Perceivers (Commonly referred to as Pe):
ENTP, ESFP, ESTP, ENFP

Judgers:
Introverted Judgers (Commonly referred to as Ji):
INTP, ISTP, INFP, ISFP

Extraverted Judgers (Commonly referred to as Je):
ESTJ, ENTJ, ESFJ, ENFJ

But a more thorough investigation of the material has shown me that we must treat the introverted and extraverted types as categories over and above the function-types. This differentiation, moreover, fully accords with experience, since, for example, there are undoubtedle two kinds of feeling types, the attitude of the one being oriented more by his feeling-experience (=introverted feeling type), the other more by the object (=extraverted feeling type) - Jung p.483

It’s one of the (many) reasons we categorize our types differently than every other forum out there by EJ, EP, IP, IJ, rather than the Keirsey methods of NT, NF, SP, SJ.

 

[88chaz88]

*nods*

Understanding what irrational and rational actually mean in these contexts will probably clear it up.

Rational, like what KazeCraven is saying, is just the ability to decide and judge.
Irrational is explaining how these functions are deprived of being able to decide and judge.

Therefore, your Thinking and Feeling (which I remind you, both have their own extraverted and introverted preferences) decide and judge, while your irrational functions, Sensing and Intuition (which I remind you, both have their own extraverted and introverted preferences), gather information and perceive.

So Perceivers:
Introverted Perceivers (Commonly referred to as Pi):
INFJ, ISFJ, INTJ, ISTJ
Extraverted Perceivers (Commonly referred to as Pe):
ENTP, ESFP, ESTP, ENFP

Judgers:
Introverted Judgers (Commonly referred to as Ji):
INTP, ISTP, INFP, ISFP

Extraverted Judgers (Commonly referred to as Je):
ESTJ, ENTJ, ESFJ, ENFJ

The trouble with this is that introverted judgers are more alike extraverted perceivers, at least in the way that decides whether you're a perceiver or judger (in basic MBTI terms anyway).

I don't like the way that your last function is described as perceiving or judging when there are perceiving and judging functions that seem to have very little to do with it. I swear this was just done for the sake of convienience.

I prefer to think of them as directive (J) and adaptive (P). Not only does this better describe how it's seen in people, but also how the two dominant functions in a person's type acts. Ni for example may be a perceiving function, but next to Ne it's very rigid and controlling, therefore directive.

It

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

It's fun to hypothesise about what discussions each type group would have.

What would NJ's discuss? IT's? EP's?

 

[Limit]

It's fun to hypothesise about what discussions each type group would have.

What would NJ's discuss? IT's? EP's?

Would probably be better to make a separate thread for that.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

Would probably be better to make a separate thread for that.

They were rhetorical questions; just a thinking point.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

Adaptation

When a P wants to change how they interact with their environment, they change what they think.

When a J wants to change how they interact with their environment, they change their environment.

 

[NYLilac]

I don't know; this seems a little oversimplified to me. I've struggled with the J v P question for weeks--maybe months now. I generally test as an INFJ, but tested once or twice as INFP, which for me threw everything into doubt. So I've read and researched and analyzed. In the process I've learned some things about myself, which turned out to be more important to me than whether there was a J or a P at the end of my MBTI code. I've learned, for example, thatf I can tolerate external clutter but must have internal order, that though even if I plan out a story I may well get sidetracked by a new insight into a character? I've learned that I'm very directing because otherwise nothing would get done, but I procrastinate as well. Finally I came to the conclusion that I have some of both preferences and it's reflected in my test scores; the J/P scores are closer than any of the others, which are rather extreme and therefore probably more definitive.

I don't mean to sound testy or rude and you may very well be right. I still don't know if I'm an INFJ or an INFP. Anyone out there want to hazard a guess?

Anica, have you tried the cognitive function test at keys2cognition.com? That helped me sort out my "Typing: problem. Would you mind taking the test and sharing your results with us/

 

[shapeshifter]

Look, J and P are the easiest to spot in people. Just let someone tell you to do something.

A J type will most commonly be direct. "Do the washing up, please." Even INFJs do this.

A P type will be less direct in doing so. "Could you do the washing up?"

Of course this isn't perfect, not only do they need to not be thinking about how they're phrasing (INFJs would usually use the second way if they were) but both ISTP and INTP tend to speak in a judging way.

It's still easy to see in someone though. Js are rigid, direct, and controlling whereas Ps are fluid, indirect, and for lack of a better word, uncontrolling.

Somewhat disagree. Social class factors into the equation in phrasing (look into philosophy of education) of requests/demands for behavior. Studies show lower class students respond better to direct commands because in many cases survival at home greatly depends on following the immediate direction of parents. In contrast, higher class students respond better to open-ended questions because survival is less of an issue and thus creativity and choice are encouraged with greater emphasis. Given this evidence, I'm not sure you can sum up MBTI with your distinction of direct/less direct phrasing.

 

[Sage of Sages]

J types are judgers. They tend to work with a specific goal in mind. This leads them to concentrate on an organized field with intense thought.
P types are perceivers. They tend to work with a mind free of a goal. This leads them to be laid back and explore possibilies of things.

 

[Avanstark]

I think of "P" as "go with the flow." and "J" as "stick to your guns." With that said, if the environment is focused on results, the "Ps" will align their results with the results asked for. The "Js" will align their results with the results that they know (subjective) need to be taken. If you include "I," "N,"and "F" into the equation, the INFP's may keep a secret agenda based on their moral beliefs. For example, if a male INFP works for a company that is dominantly against female empowerment and the INFP is for female empowerment, you will see the the INFP will act normally, gain trust, and at the same time work towards empowering women with more opportunities and silent personal conversations with others about the topic. The INFJ male will be the one to be much more secretly judgmental about the whole thing. They'll watch the "tyrants" walk amongst the crowds and wait for moments to be very vocal about everything. When they get most worked up, they will likely communicate their frustration in a very cold and harsh tone that can damage, aggravate, or scare their coworkers. It won't be hard for INFJs to regain their stature, but INFJs may also develop an inability to let go leading to medical issues or maybe even irrational behavior.

I hope this helped. And I would like to make clear that the above are based on my understanding of the personality types.

 

[YourFavoriteNightmare]

Rethinking Judging and Perceiving. This could explain it far better than I can try and sum it up. Great read and maybe, maybe not, enlightening.

http://personalityjunkie.com/03/judging-perceiving-ijs-ips/

But the core is such...(yes, I simply copied and pasted =P)

Extraverts: Since their first extraverted function is also their dominant function, the J-P label aptly describes their dominant mode of functioning.
Introverts: Since their first extraverted function is their auxiliary function, the J-P label belies their dominant mode of functioning.

To better understand these Judging-Perceiving issues, consider the following discussion of the J-P characteristics of the various types:
EPs: EPs might be considered the “purest” Perceivers of all the Myers-Briggs types. Not only do they display Perceiving in their outer behavior and demeanor (e.g., open, adaptable, receptive), but their dominant function (Ne or Se) is also a Perceiving function.
EJs: EJs might be considered the “purest” Judging types. Not only do they display Judging in their outer behavior and demeanor (e.g., assertive, intentional, directive, opinionated), but their dominant function (Te or Fe) is also a Judging function.
IPs: IPs are a mix of J-P characteristics. Since their dominant function is a Judging function (Ti or Fi), they are inner Judgers. IPs are far more serious inwardly than they appear outwardly. Rather than remaining open to new information like healthy EPs, they feel driven to move toward closure and to have things settled in their minds like EJs. They want to hammer down what they believe in order to have a platform from which to make important decisions about their lives. When their beliefs shaken into state of uncertainty, IPs tend to feel unsettled, aimless, and anxious. This anxiety prompts them to avidly locate answers so they can return to a point of comfortable closure and intentional action.
IPs are also like EJs in that they tend to think in terms of what they should be doing. They like to set goals for themselves (especially INPs), even if they rarely end up sticking to them. They tend to approach life with an agenda or a certain set of expectations. Upon waking, they consciously work to determine what they want to/should do and then initiate the process. At least when it comes to initiating tasks, IPs are as disciplined as any EJ.
IJs: IJs are also a mix of J-P characteristics. Outwardly, they look like Judgers. They can be assertive and opinionated, even resembling EJ types. But since their dominant function is a Perceiving function (Ni or Si), they are inner Perceivers. Indeed, they are dominant Perceivers. So in reality, IJs are far less serious, closed, or judgmental than they may appear outwardly.
While IPs are inwardly controlling, IJs inner world is characterized by openness and allowing. Assuming they are not coerced by outside obligations, IJs are not inclined to impose rules or agendas on themselves. Unlike IPs, who start the day with a Judging mindset (Ti or Fi), IJs prefer a more leisurely and perceptive approach (Ni or Si), allowing their Judging process (Fe or Te) emerge organically or spontaneously rather than intentionally. Therefore, when it comes to initiating the Judging process, IJs may procrastinate as long as EPs.

 

[Ghoulia Yelps]

I think with the NF types the J/P difference seems negligible.
That's why it's so hard to differentiate between INFJ and INFP.
With the SP / SJ it defines their type.
Not so with ours.

 

[Sequel]

My desk is usually messy counter to some strong opinions held about the J type that I've read. Little details like that confuse me. About the desk, right now I have a ton of papers to sort, complete, and/or shred. I have my writing utensils contained in a couple keepers, smallish calendars sent to me by ambitious salespersons, lying at the bottom of the several stacks of semi organized piles I already mentioned. Is this J or P? Tell me, please!!

 

[sassafras]

My desk is usually messy counter to some strong opinions held about the J type that I've read. Little details like that confuse me. About the desk, right now I have a ton of papers to sort, complete, and/or shred. I have my writing utensils contained in a couple keepers, smallish calendars sent to me by ambitious salespersons, lying at the bottom of the several stacks of semi organized piles I already mentioned. Is this J or P? Tell me, please!!

The differences between J and P don't come down to a messy desk, sorry to say.

What makes you J or P is whether the first judging function (T or F) in your stack is extroverted (Judger) or introverted (Perceiver). That's pretty much it.