J vs P differences

[Erlian]

The differences between J and P don't come down to a messy desk, sorry to say.

What makes you J or P is whether the first judging function (T or F) in your stack is extroverted (Judger) or introverted (Perceiver). That's pretty much it.

That's only if you follow the cognitive function MBTI. Which is arguably very different from the dichotomy MBTI. There are some similarities, but if you want to go a bit deeper than a short description, they can't be said to be the same.

If you want to know about dichotomy MBTI, where you type someone on all four dichotomies and not with the help of functions, check out user reckful on the intj forum. He has very informatie posts. For example this one on the J/P difference.
http://intjforum.com/showpost.php?p=3437537&postcount=12

Edit: He's more scientific accurate instead of giving a nice-to-read description, but that's what I personally prefer.

 

[blacklight]

Rethinking Judging and Perceiving. This could explain it far better than I can try and sum it up. Great read and maybe, maybe not, enlightening.

http://personalityjunkie.com/03/judging-perceiving-ijs-ips/

I quoted a post back from 2013 but couldn't help it because I read the article today and it was very interesting. It really messes up the stereotypical J/P descriptions and I like it!

What really got my attention was the comparison of IP/EJ and IJ/EP thought processes when performing a task: (from the website linked above)

"We might summarize IPs’ process in the following way:
J Starting point: Ti or Fi (“I should or want to do…”)
Move into auxiliary (P): Ne or Se (may get sidetracked or distracted here)
Desired J Endpoint: Fe or Te closure
Visually, this process resembles a diamond. IPs start with a specific objective (Ti or Fi), diverge outwardly (Se or Ne), then work to reign in this expansion and bring it toward a point of closure (Fe or Te). A similar process would be seen among EJ types."

"Unlike IPs, who start the day with a Judging mindset (Ti or Fi), IJs prefer a more leisurely and perceptive approach (Ni or Si), allowing their Judging process (Fe or Te) emerge organically or spontaneously rather than intentionally. Therefore, when it comes to initiating the Judging process, IJs may procrastinate as long as EPs. Once their Judging process is initiated, however, IJs begin to look more like Judging types. They may, for instance, suddenly feel compelled to write a blog post, compose a song, or solve a problem. While IPs’ transition from their dominant to auxiliary function is one of increasing divergence, IJs’ more toward greater convergence (Te or Fe). But unlike IPs, who prefer to finish with closure, IJs hope to end in a state of openness (Se or Ne). Visually, IJs’ process resembles an hourglass moving from openness (P) to closure (J) and back to openness (P):
P Starting point: Ni or Si
Move into J auxiliary: Te or Fe
Desired P Endpoint: Se or Ne"

Don't know what to think of all this yet but it definitely gave me something new to consider. Do you see yourself fitting in?

 

[charlatan]

That's only if you follow the cognitive function MBTI. Which is arguably very different from the dichotomy MBTI. There are some similarities, but if you want to go a bit deeper than a short description, they can't be said to be the same.

Correct.

I think a good way to see this is to say that what really doesn't work is the conversion from dichotomies to functions.

I think there's some valid-ish statements such as saying that the typical MBTI descriptions of Ne sound more like a perceiver's orientation than typical MBTI descriptions Ni which tend to evoke things like foresight rather than mere expansiveness of context (foresight is a definite NJ theme). But really what I'd view this as is that the dichotomies are somehow broader. There's a general theme where perceiving is overall less centered on organization/decision/extracting, and judging more so.

I have found the place the correlations work worst between dichotomies and functions is in distinguishing the two kinds of judging. In particular, I would not agree an INFJ sounds decidedly less like a Fi type than Fe necessarily. However, I would agree an ENTP sounds more like a Ne type than Ni, and so does INTP. Similarly, Se versus Si as presented by the MBTI does evoke the picture of P versus J to an extent, where Si is focused more on reliability and what works.

It's also crucial to note that MBTI's Ni, Ne, etc are not quite the same as what Carl Jung had in mind. They are revised to fit the dichotomies more closely.

"We might summarize IPs’ process in the following way:
J Starting point: Ti or Fi (“I should or want to do…”)
Move into auxiliary (P): Ne or Se (may get sidetracked or distracted here)
Desired J Endpoint: Fe or Te closure
Visually, this process resembles a diamond. IPs start with a specific objective (Ti or Fi), diverge outwardly (Se or Ne), then work to reign in this expansion and bring it toward a point of closure (Fe or Te). A similar process would be seen among EJ types."

While these are common things you'll find online, I warn that IP types really don't seem to necessarily be JiPe types. That is one of the least proved aspects of the theory, and it's safer to say that JiPe has become its own pattern. The idea that INFP are FiNe is now to the point where INFP is just a code. As the user above you posted, there's actually a lot of research behind the four letter codes which you could see in say an MBTI manual. It is very empiricism oriented research, but it's definitely serious work they've done.

There are loose truths here of course - for instance, introversion does contribute to a less Ne orientation (less scattered, more inclined to reduce the flow of energy in a divergent way)...which can be rationalized as Fi or Ti "cutting down" the Ne. But I've never found much truth to the idea that a clear dichotomies IP type has to be JiPe. It doesn't seem to correlate with the data either.

However, it is worth keeping in mind that Carl Jung thought your top two functions can both be introverted or extraverted, and saw this is as closer to the norm in clear introverts and clear extraverts than really a sort of anomaly.

 

[MegaPixelMusic]

Lots of interesting ideas to mull over in here. I'm fairly lazy and it's hard to get going sometimes to get things done. Along with a completely crap working memory and a tendency to get 'comfortable' in a disorganized environment I'm inclined to see myself as a P type. I also have an extreme one track mind when it comes to getting things done. I can't clean as I go, it must be two separate steps for me.

But I've noticed I get neurotic when things aren't planned and organized. Whenever I get something done I need to know the process and set out the way I'm going to do it before I start. I'm the first to read directions whenever I do anything. In fact this leads me to not do things, since I feel I need to know all the steps and have an awareness of the whole process before I even start. I also tend to clean and organize in response to others, when people are coming over and tend to be organized and prepared for everything. I do like to organize and find the perfect way to put everything.... it just takes a lot of energy.

I also NEED music. I just can't get those boring mundane tasks done without it. I like to set aside a day to crank the music and get the cleaning done.

I also work much better with routine, though it's hard to get the routine going.

Most of the things I like to get prepared with seems to be around people... I'm extremely paranoid about disappointing people... especially with something I've planned or arranged. I'm extremely reluctant to initiate things, but when I do I'm going to make sure it's great.

I believe most of this is J territory

 

[Lsjnzy13]

When I'm with my INFJ friend and if we were to plan a hangout, he needs to plan the date a whole week in advance, as well as the time and place etc.

With my Perceiving friends we hardly ever plan. Usually it's just a text message saying "are you free now?" and if the person says ok then I'm over at their place in five minutes.
My ESFP friend usually comes over without asking (since she knows my schedule pretty well and knows when I'm at home or not). The first time she did that I got a text saying "I'm in your backyard, please get your dog to stop licking me."

I'm a P so I prefer being spontaneous. The problem with 'planning' hangouts with my judging friends is that by the time comes I would've forgotten about it. (My memory is worse than Dory's!) XD

EDIT: Oh yeah and also, my judging friends always hand in their assignments a week before due date. Meanwhile I'm always the kid who either hands it in on the due date or tell the teacher on the due date that I accidentally left it at home.

 

[j654dgj7]

That is sooo me. Yeah so I need another P right now for a high-five.

 

[Trent]

There are INJs who hardly finish anything they start and INPs who are highly motivated, external factors and upbringing have an effect here.

Yep, I believe that is the 'follow-through' variable. We need like 10 letters to fully describe the personality. I like a neat office & house or at least relative order like people care about where and what they live in, but my follow-through on ideas is equal to the messy house or office I walk into. Uhmazing. I do follow through and I don't. Perhaps Ghandi followed through.

 

[charlatan]

If you'd like to look at strong personality correlates of J/P you should seek out the Big 5 Conscientiousness dimension.
Many inventories measure facets of the domains, breaking the domains up into more basic components, so that more middle of the road preferences can still be accurately described.

That is where all this cognitive functions appeal even began -- people realize they can't decide their dichotomies types, and then resort to finding their type by functions. This makes no sense! You're finding your type in an ultimately different system. Time-tested studies have disproved that there's any reasonable way to associate the cognitive functions patterns in the common archetypes used (like Ni-Fe-Ti-Se) to the dichotomies.

I don't deny that someone thinking conceptually about the systems can find some meaning in those archetypes. I have adopted one for myself, as posters can see, despite hardly believing this is the only way of organizing Jungian ideas, and acknowledging that in his system, with somewhat different emphases, the idea that the aux and dom alternate in attitude is thoroughly false.
But to suggest the dichotomies are not tapping into deep, fundamental aspects of personality belies just how much is organized by the Big 5 successfully. They explain just how various specifics (facets) fit into broad motivational drives.

For instance, they show that feelings fit into many different types of psychological drives; one is the neuroticism area, signaling distress. One is to convey reward. And still another is to convey things like richness of experience, meaning, and so on (see the Openness to Feelings facet of Openness/Intellect).

The test items may measure relatively shallow things like how organized someone is. But there's a very broad, deeper general psychological trait, one that requires statistical analysis to uncover, organizing the shared variance of the traits loading on Conscientiousness, which is a kind of broad "imposing order vs letting things unfold" dichotomy, which definitely has deep psychological implications and is very much at the heart of many observations C.G. Jung made on the irrational-rational dichotomy.

The test is an identification tool, not the full theory. For that we study the many correlates along with solid analysis of why certain traits cluster together.

 

[Miso]

The J/P dichotomy is more likely delineated by an individual's attitude towards the environment to fit his developed values best in it (which were oriented to him via tapering stimuli or operant conditioning --> "why does an individual's cognitive functions operate that way?"). One may experience perception as insurgent or defective, giving rise to identifying with judgments. Or he could experience judgments as absurd or too abrogating therefore an attachment to perception. J/P doesn't affect the three letter orientation though, cognitive strength ≠ cognitive preferences and fuck I really suck at explaining sorry. Here's a video where I got the idea from:

[video=youtube;OIHWe_a0AoE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIHWe_a0AoE[/video]

reference: http://worldsocionics.blogspot.com/

 

[Miso]

People generally find others with similar cognitive strength more engaging.

INFJ:
Ni | Fi
Fe | Ne
Ti | Si
Se | Te

Conscious Ni is more valued in introverts while unconscious Fi is more valued in extroverts
INFJs would have more understanding of INJs over INPs, ISPs over ISJs (F/T)
INFJs would have more understanding of EFPs over EFJs, ETJs over ETPs (N/S)
So people more likely to have moral precision or other INFJ traits according to cognitive strength are as follow:

INFJ
INFP
INTJ
INTP
ENFP
ENFJ
ENTJ
ENTP
ISFP
ISFJ
ISTP
ISTJ
ESFP
ESFJ
ESTJ
ESTP

For the sake of this system's cognitive discrimination, we can look at P types in reverse order

For INTPs, conscious Ti is more valued in introverts while unconscious Ni is more valued in extroverts
INTPs would have more understanding of ITPs over ITJs, IFJs over IFPs (T/F)
INTPs would have more understanding of ENJs over ENPs, ESPs over ESJs (N/S)
So people more likely to have intellectual accuracy according to cognitive strength are as follow:

INTP
INTJ
INFJ
INFP
ENTJ
ENTP
ENFJ
ENFP
ISTP
ISTJ
ISFJ
ISFP
ESTP
ESTJ
ESFP
ESFJ

 

[Kaotiklysm]

I find that J vs P can be the easiest dichotomy to identify in person. Js seem pro-active, as if they are always moving along some kind of goal-directed path (or searching for something to make a goal), whereas Ps are more reactive, and tend to just be laidback but respond to what goes on in the environment more. It can be seen prominently in body language. There's also some more in-between body language that is more centred and sometimes closed off (usually whilst sitting still) where it can be hard to tell if the focus of perception is inward or outward. I think I probably enter this ambiguous body-language when I engage Se (and maybe Ti).

 

[cptawesome]

What are the main differences between these two? How do you recognise these preferences in an Introvert?

I'm working in accounts at the moment and I get huge satisfaction when the books are all balanced, also when my in-tray is completely empty. I think I like the sense of order and completion that comes with it. Is this my J preference coming out?

First take into account the moodiness of an INTP,INFP, (INFJ), INTJ, whether they are organized or not it depends on how important it is at that moment and how it will affect them later.

 

[ElleG]

What are the main differences between these two? How do you recognise these preferences in an Introvert?

I'm working in accounts at the moment and I get huge satisfaction when the books are all balanced, also when my in-tray is completely empty. I think I like the sense of order and completion that comes with it. Is this my J preference coming out?

This is a great question and something I've dived deep into because I noticed that J and P seem to be, for me, the main source of tension in my own relationships and relationships I've observed. I also think the MBTi is quantitative and that has led to a lot of misconceptions around J and P and causes people to mistype themselves and others.

Briefest explanation: J and P are used to denote whether a person's primary judging function is extroverted (Fe and Te) or introverted (Fi and Ti), but I would say it can be hard to tell if a person introverts their judgment or extroverts it unless you have an interpersonal relationship with them or engage with them on a regular basis. If you look at the functional stacks of all the MBTi types, you'll see that all P's have an Fi or Ti as their primary judging function and all J's have an Fe or Te as their primary judging function.

Example:
INFJ = Ni-Fe-Ti-Se (Fe is their primary judging function)
INFP = Fi-NE-Si-Te (Fi is their primary judging function)

Here is a great write up that I found super helpful when I was exploring "J vs P":

http://psychologyjunkie.com/2015/09...standing-what-the-jp-preference-really-means/

 

[Y1gtfmd74i5u]

What are the main differences between these two? How do you recognise these preferences in an Introvert?

I'm working in accounts at the moment and I get huge satisfaction when the books are all balanced, also when my in-tray is completely empty. I think I like the sense of order and completion that comes with it. Is this my J preference coming out?

As I’m starting to study deeper into typology, I’ve noticed there’s a process to finding that. Once I was able to understand that there’s a difference in ones personal preference of how they perceive (sensing or intuiting) and how they judge (thinking or feeling) then it’s about whether energy is turned inward or outward and the attitude towards how we handle the world. Granted, I’m sure I would prefer a judging outer attitude, I’d simply rather not come out from under my rock at all.

 

[Ok08Y567gA]

What are the main differences between these two? How do you recognise these preferences in an Introvert?

I'm working in accounts at the moment and I get huge satisfaction when the books are all balanced, also when my in-tray is completely empty. I think I like the sense of order and completion that comes with it. Is this my J preference coming out?

Well, judging verse perceiving comes down to a certain aspect of cognitive function theory. Thinking and Feeling are judging functions and Intuition and Sensing are perceiving functions. Specifically, every personality has some sort of extroverted lead or auxiliary function, if the personality is introverted than it will have an extroverted auxiliary perceiving or judging function, so it's a perceiving or judging type depending on whether its auxiliary function is thinking/feeling or intuition/sensing. If the personality is extroverted than it will have an extroverted dominate function that is either perceiving or judging, so again it's a perceiving or judging type based on if its dominate function is thinking/feeling or intuition/sensing. Thus, judging and perceiving come down to the most apparent aspects of extroversion in a personality type. An INTP is a perceiver because their main preference of extroversion is Ne- (Extroverted Intuition which is a perception function), so they tend to extrovert their intuitive associations, observations, and ideas that occur to them across their experience and exposure to things. Where an ESTJ is a judging type, because their main preference for extroversion is Te, so they tend to judge and organize the space around them based on their inductive reasoning of how the world they encounter works or functions. Judging types are any types that lead with or has auxiliary Fe or Te and perceiving types are any types that lead with or has auxiliary Se or Ne. I hope this makes sense.

 

[Ok08Y567gA]

As I’m starting to study deeper into typology, I’ve noticed there’s a process to finding that. Once I was able to understand that there’s a difference in ones personal preference of how they perceive (sensing or intuiting) and how they judge (thinking or feeling) then it’s about whether energy is turned inward or outward and the attitude towards how we handle the world. Granted, I’m sure I would prefer a judging outer attitude, I’d simply rather not come out from under my rock at all.

You're spot on, if you are an extroverted judger- (feeler or thinker), you're a judging type: ISFJ, ESFJ, ISTJ, ESTJ, INFJ, ENFJ, INTJ, ENTJ-Te and Fe. Whereas if you're an extroverted perceiver- (sensate or intuitive), you're a perceiving type: ISFP, ESFP, ISTP, ESTP, INFP, ENFP, INTP, ENTP- Se and Ne.

Type isn't about the what but the why, like I'm an INTJ, but I wander around and daydream a lot, because it helps me do my work as a professional and perform superiorly.

 

[Ok08Y567gA]

to me, J vs. P is difficult.

I know several J's that are messy. and several P's that are judgemental.

However, the way our HR department described it... think of it as a time line of getting ready. let's say you know you have to clean your closet before you leave the house this evening at 5 pm. the J's will probably start thinking about the process earlier in the week... buying boxes, sorting through other drawers. the P's won't typically plan future actions regarding closet cleaning.

The J gets up early or on scheduled time today. Makes a list, or mental list of things needing to be accomplished. Plans the time usage for the day. Checking off actions like a train going down the track.

A P is more circuitous. The P wakes up, starts to clean out the closet... then realize they need to go buy boxes. They go to the store, then realize they need to get groceries. They come back home, and then the phone rings, and they answer the phone and forget about cleaning the closet. Then around, 4:30, there's a flurry of action while they try to finish the task they wanted to.

This is not to say that J's don't procrastinate - I definitely did on any school assignment. That must be sort of general human nature.

To me, J's seemed more defined. They plan and schedule more long term. They don't like surprises as much. They can make decisions easier than Ps.

That said, I think any FJ combo would be tough to type. The F seems to temper my J a lot. I use humor to water down any harsh judgements. And my empathy seems to prevent me from coming across as being cold.

Check out my post on the matter. Perhaps it will clear things up for you.

 

[aeon]

holy necrothread!

 

[Ok08Y567gA]

holy necrothread!

 

[BXM]

Is it possible for an INFJ to become an INTJ personality? (Back and forth though).