Let's talk about women in powerplay

[Pin]

I don't see people as objects and always hated the "locker room" talk that happens when women are out of ear shot.

I can confirm that conversations like these occur and that I often participate in them.

However, the only solution I can think of is keeping all of these vulgar thoughts to yourself and that's just hell on Earth.

Sometimes I just want to vocalize my admiration for people's bodies.

I thought this was America!

 

[Pin]

Imagine that

Yeah, I think that's where a lot of guys mess up. They try to find their wife at work instead of going out and doing cool stuff.

Spoiler: Bad Argument

It's like, James Bond has no problems meeting the opposite sex and he's a fictional character! What's your excuse?

 

[Deleted member 16771]

Would you consider yourself a feminist? Why or why not?

I'm with sass, here.

The problem is that the term 'feminism' colligates (ties together) two very different types of concept. On the one hand there is the ideal concept and the pure definition, which is laudable. On the other there's all the real-world baggage that's been attached to it and which it now connotes, and I don't want any part of that to be quite honest.

A lot of work in academia done under the label of 'feminist' is utter tripe, believe me. Now that doesn't mean that the foundational principles of 'feminism' are garbage, but it does mean that the label is fucked and we should make a distinction.

Personally, I believe in gender equality, but I'm wary of eroding the special dynamic between men and women because I think it has value. That is to say that I don't think 'femininity' or 'masculinity' should be derided as something akin to ideologies of oppression - they have very positive aspects.

 

[mintoots]

Closest I have today is preference for minimalism where it makes sense.

Me too. Minimalism and a circular economy, or at least a lifestyle. But it's reaaaaallllly haaaaaaard. No kidding. I mean I just bought clothes (I blame stress but meh. I'm too weak for the real world).

Personally, I believe in gender equality, but I'm wary of eroding the special dynamic between men and women because I think it has value. That is to say that I don't think 'femininity' or 'masculinity' should be derided as something akin to ideologies of oppression - they have very positive aspects.

Exactly! I mean I was there listening to these men yap about the beautiful women they remember other than their wives (I notice the good ones tend to just laugh tolerant, and the uglier ones tend to chime in with gusto -- good god! This is nothing but an ego inflation program. I found myself begging god to put textile into their mouths.). Through it all, I was just thinking how a cleopatra could easily burn them down. And a cleopatra will use her womanhood to do so.

@Daustus' statement shows that misplaced sexism also offends the good men and not just the women, or all genders in particular, and vice versa. Thus, any ism out there is simply being used by many as power tools. The problem is the human, not the ism. Any form of abuse remains intolerable. And yet we're human. And yet I'm tolerant because I need the job.

It just makes me sad for the world but mostly annoyed in general.

 

[worthy]

I embrace the concept and kind of shudder at the word. It's hard to admit that second part because it IS the word that stands for the concept I embrace. I understand "feminism" to be the (good!) opposite of sexism. Although "gender equity" does a more neutral job of it, "feminism" rightly draws attention to the inequality that has been the burden of women.

That said, I don't like the word. I don't like to answer when people ask if I am a feminist because so many people I know are uncomfortable with the word. Maybe just a few people, but people close to me, people who otherwise support gender equality but can't get over the stereotypes imprinted in their mind from past eras and incarnations of the word/concept. Maybe I just don't like labels very much. If I say I'm a feminist, people will jump to conclusions that may not be accurate and may do more harm than good. If I say I am a passionate believer in gender equity and also feel strongly about shifting the patriarchal imbalance in our society, people ask questions (or maybe just zone out).

It's tricky. I did a Women's & Gender Studies minor in college (1995) and the word "feminism" came up a lot, I suspect because many of my professors came of age in the 1970s. I wasn't comfortable with it then, either. I don't think we should throw it out, and yet it makes me uncomfortable and I can't quite put my finger on why exactly it is problematic.

But in comparison, if someone asked if I were a LGBTQ ally, I would not hesitate to say, hell yes! If someone asked me, do black lives matter unconditionally? I would say, absolutely and why would you even ask that?! So why do I squirm at the word "feminism"? Maybe because I want people to be comfortable and it makes people uncomfortable. Which is my problem to get over, because people really should be made uncomfortable enough to challenge and change things.

I'm not sure I'm helping the conversation. But those are my thoughts.

 

[mintoots]

@worthy Ooooohhhh interesting discomfort.

Actually I'm a woman and sometimes I'm not sure I understand the word. Sometimes being a radical defender of what is seemingly the minority has this weird imbalance. It's like fighting so strongly about love for all beings in the world but thinks same sex union is unacceptable. It's like hating monsters but having to become a monster to defeat monsters. It's a vicious cycle.

If I say I am a feminist in the work place essentially, am I man hater then? When I see a female superior use her femaleness to get a subordinate to do things for her, isn't that wrongly used feminism? And yet for women, especially when it comes to political leverage, people tend to do what they can in the name of a cause. Is the cause still rightly valued or is it a tool for serving one's self? Means, ends, and justifications.

Again, humans are the problem. But humans are also the hope. Why must yin and yang co-exist all the time? People who don't believe in forever better hold their horses because good never existed without evil, ever. Even as energy (or what even is theoretically bad or evil?). There's always polarization - nature needs it to maintain gravity, movement, and existence, everybody else along the spectrum gets fried in the tension eventually.

I'm sorry if i'm asking uncomfortable questions. I'm also sorry if I'm probably too intense. Sometimes being weak in the real world tends to lead to finding escapes or breathers elsewhere, like the internet. Ahh. It's frustrating.

 

[worthy]

@MINFJToothFairy , I would like to believe that HERE is the one place we (INFJs) should not apologize for being too intense! I feel I do that everywhere else in my life, but here I assume everyone is probably starting out from a similar very-intense place, so really, this is just normal here.

I don't understand how a manager could use feminism to harm a subordinate. It sounds like maybe the manager is manipulative, period, and that is the problem. Certainly many male managers have used gender power imbalance to coerce women subordinates. I am not saying it is acceptable for a female manager to do that, but perhaps it is true that some managers are manipulative and will use whatever tools at hand to accomplish that. But I can't think of any situations in my work history where a woman has wielded feminism unacceptably at an inferior. I can't really think of any situations where feminism would give a woman this power. Maybe more information would help?

 

[mintoots]

@MINFJToothFairy , I would like to believe that HERE is the one place we (INFJs) should not apologize for being too intense! I feel I do that everywhere else in my life, but here I assume everyone is probably starting out from a similar very-intense place, so really, this is just normal here.

I don't understand how a manager could use feminism to harm a subordinate. It sounds like maybe the manager is manipulative, period, and that is the problem. Certainly many male managers have used gender power imbalance to coerce women subordinates. I am not saying it is acceptable for a female manager to do that, but perhaps it is true that some managers are manipulative and will use whatever tools at hand to accomplish that. But I can't think of any situations in my work history where a woman has wielded feminism unacceptably at an inferior. I can't really think of any situations where feminism would give a woman this power. Maybe more information would help?

For example, when female seduction is being used to "persuade" (weak) male subordinates to do her job for her. Is this not feminism, in a way? What is the true definition of feminism, anyway? Rights for women? What if she liked that she's a woman with all the alluring curves because it's exactly what she needs to get things done?

 

[MoonFlier]

For example, when female seduction is being used to "persuade" (weak) male subordinates to do her job for her. Is this not feminism, in a way? What is the true definition of feminism, anyway? Rights for women? What if she liked that she's a woman with all the alluring curves because it's exactly what she needs to get things done?

How is that any different than the top male CEOs getting to their position via a combo of good looks, a great smile and a touch of talent, but nothing any more special than what others without those looks had.

I can see a manager turning Women's rights against women by saying "If you want to work with the boys and get equal pay, then you have to prove you have a right to be here." It's more likely to come from a female manager than a male one, but it's wrong to tell a woman she has to work harder than the men to earn the same position.

 

[MoonFlier]

My last company boasted frequently about the large number of female employees they had in technical roles.
To those who didn't look too hard at the situation, it looked great. Stay a few years, and I noticed that it was mostly the men who were promoted to managerial levels. Women who had been there longer than the men were told that they were needed in their current roles and could not move positions. The men, as it turned out, were also being paid an average of 15% higher than the women doing the same job. I called them out on their bull and was in the next round of layoffs.

 

[Pin]

My last company boasted frequently about the large number of female employees they had in technical roles.
To those who didn't look too hard at the situation, it looked great. Stay a few years, and I noticed that it was mostly the men who were promoted to managerial levels. Women who had been there longer than the men were told that they were needed in their current roles and could not move positions. The men, as it turned out, were also being paid an average of 15% higher than the women doing the same job. I called them out on their bull and was in the next round of layoffs.

That's a crying shame.

 

[mintoots]

My last company boasted frequently about the large number of female employees they had in technical roles.
To those who didn't look too hard at the situation, it looked great. Stay a few years, and I noticed that it was mostly the men who were promoted to managerial levels. Women who had been there longer than the men were told that they were needed in their current roles and could not move positions. The men, as it turned out, were also being paid an average of 15% higher than the women doing the same job. I called them out on their bull and was in the next round of layoffs.

Fuck them. I swear. Are they running a company or a fraternity?

I remember being in a meeting and being commended for a good job and then being asked, when are you going to get married? Perhaps you'll soon leave this company to get married and be a mother. Apparently, I was being withheld from a position because I might get married? I wasn't even dating! Seriously?!? I did leave the company.

 

[MoonFlier]

Fuck them. I swear. Are they running a company or a fraternity?

I remember being in a meeting and being commended for a good job and then being asked, when are you going to get married? Perhaps you'll soon leave this company to get married and be a mother. Apparently, I was being withheld from a position because I might get married? I wasn't even dating! Seriously?!? I did leave the company.

That's absolutely disgusting.
You could have turned it on them and said something like "Hell no! Isn't it bad enough that we have a world filled with male chauvinists? You think I want to bring a kid into that?"

 

[mintoots]

That's absolutely disgusting.
You could have turned it on them and said something like "Hell no! Isn't it bad enough that we have a world filled with male chauvinists? You think I want to bring a kid into that?"

People like these bring up so many issues (and yet when a female does something similar to male, i find myself laughing). I.e., are you sure you can deliver that? There are way too many good boobs around here for your distraction.

 

[mintoots]

So men who work in the porn industry actually get paid half of what the women earn!?! Woah. Talk about gender equalism.

 

[MoonFlier]

So men who work in the porn industry actually get paid half of what the women earn!?! Woah. Talk about gender equalism.

Eh, Economics 101: supply and demand.

Doesn't every man have a secret desire to whip out his tool and have it admired by a pretty woman while being watched/filmed? (Those who aren't introverts that is)



edit: just kidding, I know not every man is like this, but there are an overwhelming number who are.

 

[mintoots]

Eh, Economics 101: supply and demand.

Doesn't every man have a secret desire to whip out his tool and have it admired by a pretty woman while being watched/filmed? (Those who aren't introverts that is)

LOL isn't that sexist? Hahahah it's like saying every gay guy wants to bang every guy out there. No? Hehe I don't know. We have to wait for the men to say something...

This is fast becoming a married auntie thread.

 

[Asa]

I like to think I'm a gender equalist

Each gender has its strengths and weaknesses.

- This means you are a feminist. This is what feminism is.

A lot of people are afraid to use the term "feminism" because misogyny tries to paint feminism as a negative philosophy. As a society, we have the impression feminism is negative. (Think of the traits associated with it.)

 

[mintoots]

- This means you are a feminist. This is what feminism is.

A lot of people are afraid to use the term "feminism" because misogyny tries to paint feminism as a negative philosophy. As a society, we have the impression feminism is negative. (Think of the traits associated with it.)

Thanks for the clarification. Actually I'm confused as to what it means exactly.

 

[Icedream]

- This means you are a feminist. This is what feminism is.

A lot of people are afraid to use the term "feminism" because misogyny tries to paint feminism as a negative philosophy. As a society, we have the impression feminism is negative. (Think of the traits associated with it.)

This is what feminism was, not is. I doubt you honestly believe this yourself, if you have been around modern feminism at all. Misogyny did not shape modern feminism, extremists did.

That said, I do agree that the college testosterone parties happen way too often. It's really obnoxious, and only a fraction of men are really like that. I would love to call myself a feminist, but I tend to veer away from the title because of the stigma that self-proclaimed feminists have given it.

In short, I prefer Rosie the Riveter over Anita Sarkeesian.