Military Draft

[secretsmile]

I understand that the Volunteers are choosing to give away the freedom to say no when a General tells them to murder someone. I also understand that their free choice ensured that they'd have to take the responsibility for their actions under the orders of someone else.

The people contesting this Draft Law are the people who don't want to be told to murder someone.

Why not Generalise them? The USMC exists to kill people, not to photograph them. If they have people acting in the role of photographer, that's their decision. But the USMC is not a Photography Corps.

If you hate Americans, there's nothing I can say or do to make you feel otherwise.

And frankly, your last point makes NO SENSE. There are entire orders written specifying exactly what my husband's mission is as a photographer in the Marine Corps. To say "if they have people acting in the role of photographer, that's their decision" - uh, yeah, EXACTLY. What the hell kind of point do you think you're making by saying that? Whatever stereotypes and ridiculous crap you've heard about what Marines do on a regular basis, get it out of your head, because it's not true.

Europeans like to insult Americans and say we're not cultured, but take a look at yourself. You are stereotyping and generalizing an entire group of people based on your own biases and what you've heard. Why not keep an open mind until you actually interact with us? Honestly.

 

[Shai Gar]

I don't hate Americans. I hate American Foreign policy and the USDF.

 

[acd]

Women stay behind like Nemo said, to make babies. When the men run out, the politicians take time out from their busy days golfing to start impregnating us.

Actually, the OP is right on. Everything mentioned in the OP are things that I have pondered in a way most outraged. I think it's a sick sad joke that countries have to force their civilians to fight in wars the civilians don't support. Obviously, when that's going on the government isn't serving the needs of the people, it's the people feeding their lives to the government. Therefore, there is no democracy in America.

 

[youngster]

i totaly a gree. its so wrong. and very sexist. i am kind of unsurprised though. where did you find this out. is obama wanting to change this or somethng?
i thought it would be more fair if (i know im not american) the was no subscription and in time of your 'crisis' they would advertise instead. unless it gets out of controll...............


in school we did this thing in RE where you had to pick where to stand in the class room what you would do in a war
to opitions were fignt or refuse which was made out to be abondon country.
i understand that we must defend ourselfs but personaly i couldn't kill anyone in a war. if they threatening to kill a single innocent person on the street id shoot them if i had a gun. but i think most of us would be concious objectors (so we go to war but only as medics)- not those who abondon their country.
but there is a hippy side to me (despite my love for metallica and ratm) that just wants peace and love.

 

[Shai Gar]

I would have stood in the third corner. Seeking Alternative Nationality.

 

[Duty]

If you hate Americans, there's nothing I can say or do to make you feel otherwise.

And frankly, your last point makes NO SENSE. There are entire orders written specifying exactly what my husband's mission is as a photographer in the Marine Corps. To say "if they have people acting in the role of photographer, that's their decision" - uh, yeah, EXACTLY. What the hell kind of point do you think you're making by saying that? Whatever stereotypes and ridiculous crap you've heard about what Marines do on a regular basis, get it out of your head, because it's not true.

Europeans like to insult Americans and say we're not cultured, but take a look at yourself. You are stereotyping and generalizing an entire group of people based on your own biases and what you've heard. Why not keep an open mind until you actually interact with us? Honestly.

You're taking this very personally. Why is that? No one here is attacking your husband.

Still, I will have to throw my hat in for how disgusting I find the draft and selective service to be. I have to also say that I find the very idea of militaries to be morally offensive. Their job is basically to kill people our politicians don't like. It's state sanctioned mass murder. One can frame it differently in the "dying for your country" and "honorable protection of our country," but there has been no military offensive on American soil since Pearl Harbor...yet we have been involved in 4 major offensives since then. In addition, generals agree that "dying for your country" is pretty stinking useless...the role of the military is to make others die for their country.

Troops aren't deployed to defend us. They're deployed because our politicians don't like someone else and want to kill him. The way the military is used seems more like hired hitmen then anything else to me.

So, we have this thing called "conscientious objector." I'm certainly one. I rather go to prison then kill someone or support military action in any way...but luckily anymore we have laws that let conscientious objectors not go to prison and not go to kill in this age. I suggest looking it up.

 

[alcyone]

In my opinion, serving in the Armed Forces in some capacity should be mandatory for everyone from age 18 to 20.

If things ever came to the point of requiring a draft. It's most likely because the country is on the verge of losing a war for our sovernignty.

As for the Americans here....It's not up to the military where we get sent and told what to do. That comes from the politicians who are voted into office. And since the public is responsible for electing the countries leaders, the public is also then responsible for what the military has been tasked to do.

 

[Duty]

In my opinion, serving in the Armed Forces in some capacity should be mandatory for everyone from age 18 to 20.

Why?

Would you even say this to those that have moral objection to the military? To those who think the military is little more then state sanctioned mass murder?


I can respect the different point of view of those who think they are doing something honorable. Can you say you hold the same respect for those that despise violence and won't support such an institution in any way?

As for the Americans here....It's not up to the military where we get sent and told what to do. That comes from the politicians who are voted into office. And since the public is responsible for electing the countries leaders, the public is also then responsible for what the military has been tasked to do.

This is only true if you believe that elections are an accurate representation of what you're voting for. Corrupt, incompetent, or otherwise poorly chosen people are elected all the time. This is mostly because democracy as a system doesn't work...if you are sick you go to a doctor, if your toilet breaks you call a plumber...you call an expert...democracy makes everyone an expert on fixing social problems...and we all know that most people are not experts. This is why politicians use the campaign tactics they do...politics is more an exercise in product advertising then it is in making things better.

In addition, what if I didn't vote for the people in office?

 

[acd]

As for the Americans here....It's not up to the military where we get sent and told what to do. That comes from the politicians who are voted into office. And since the public is responsible for electing the countries leaders, the public is also then responsible for what the military has been tasked to do.

Which is why my conscience is clear. I don't vote because I don't want any of them representing me.. I've never found a politician I feel comfortable representing me.

 

[IndigoSensor]

In my opinion, serving in the Armed Forces in some capacity should be mandatory for everyone from age 18 to 20.

Why? I sure as hell would get out of it. As I have said before, I do not have the mental facillities to handle that.

 

[bamf]

Someone said earlier, I think it may have been Duty, that troops aren't used to defend and all military is state sanctioned mass murder. I think that is way too much of an ultimatum when it comes to armed forces. Many nations have armed forces to defend themselves from other "rouge nations" who may harbor ill-intent. I wish, I really do, that there was no need for armies, but countries have to defend themselves. You can't fight clubs with words and you can't fight tanks with swords (as the Polish quickly learned in WWII). However, I would agree with you if you said that many nations use their armed forces as bully and scare tactics to protect their "interests" (to be read as stuffing their pocket books). Armed revolutions from the people are usually good in my book because they come directly from the people, whom are often times down-trodded and oppressed.

sorry If i got off the topic of the draft. I just couldn't keep my two cents to my self.

 

[alcyone]

Why?

Would you even say this to those that have moral objection to the military? To those who think the military is little more then state sanctioned mass murder?


I can respect the different point of view of those who think they are doing something honorable. Can you say you hold the same respect for those that despise violence and won't support such an institution in any way?

Why?

Because there are plenty of things that people who don't want to carry a gun or be directly involved in combat operations can do here stateside. Before Bush and Co. started stripping the military of it's engineering corps, computer techs, back office paper pushers, and contracting out the work to civilian agencies, the military would also have the man power and the ability (read training, skills etc) to build what is broken. Not only would the non-volunteer selective service people be given a couple years to transition into adult independence, but they could also have some valuable skill training, put away some money for college, party a bit and get it out of their systems before actually committing themselves to college and careers after it.

There are plenty of menial chores and jobs that could become the purview of the Non-Volunteer Service Corps.

I could care less if someone has a moral objection to the military. And for the stupid people who believe that the military is little more than state sanctioned mass murder, I pity the depth of their ignorance and would encourage them to pursue studies in military history in order to educate themselves about the various other operations that the military has been involved in.

As for my having respect for people who detest violence and won't support the institution, I wouldn't say I have respect for their decision. I acknowledge their right to have that opinion, but I don't respect it.

As for those who abhor it, well....Sheep are meant to be sheared. If you aren't willing to preserve your freedom, then apparently you don't care very much for it.

This is only true if you believe that elections are an accurate representation of what you're voting for.

Total cop out. It's so much easier to decry responsibility for the way the political system actually works by whining about how your personal views aren't adequately represented, instead of using what is available in order to try and strike a balance between what we actually have.

 

[pogo_<3]

If you hate Americans, there's nothing I can say or do to make you feel otherwise.

And frankly, your last point makes NO SENSE. There are entire orders written specifying exactly what my husband's mission is as a photographer in the Marine Corps. To say "if they have people acting in the role of photographer, that's their decision" - uh, yeah, EXACTLY. What the hell kind of point do you think you're making by saying that? Whatever stereotypes and ridiculous crap you've heard about what Marines do on a regular basis, get it out of your head, because it's not true.

Europeans like to insult Americans and say we're not cultured, but take a look at yourself. You are stereotyping and generalizing an entire group of people based on your own biases and what you've heard. Why not keep an open mind until you actually interact with us? Honestly.

Hello. Before I mention anything else, I foremost would like to mention that I am by no means here to argue, and if I come off as perturbed, then it is rightfully so. War and draft is a subject that I am particularly passionate about. I have had several relatives and family friends over the years that were not only in the military, but in the marines specifically. And while I don't support the war either, I don't agree with your views entirely. And for anyone out there who is willing and ready to say that by not supporting this war, I hate America, I would BEG to differ. To quote the song, " Im proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free" I'm afraid we've reached a point in our lives where the "at least" portion of the song is all we have. But with a growing civilization, that seems to no longer be enough. I read earlier in the argument that you had said that war was inevitable, and the only thing we were good at. While that may be the case of your husband, I can surely tell you right now that I personally am no good at war, but I sure like to write and read. I consider myself to be a remotely religious person, and I would like to believe that God didn't put us on this Earth to be good at war. If that was the case, why aren't swords and guns developed with the fetus? I believe that with the support of people that feel so passionately about their opinions, like yourself, and everyone else gifted so, that together their support put forth positively could inspire others to believe that war CAN be stopped, and that peace IS possible. But with the attitude of hopelessness currently ensuing our world by people such as yourself, war is temporarily neccessary.
And the volunteering bit-
voluteering for ANYTHING is a thankless job. Thats why its volunteering, and not work. When you join the army, marines, navy, or any other branch of military voluntarily, you are NOT volunteering. Does your husband or yourself recieve pay for his services? If so, he is NOT a volunteer. He is simply going to work. If he happens to stop by the animal shelter on his way home from deployment and put in a few hours, THEN he can be called a volunteer. Im not trying to stir trouble, its just a simple fact. And I hope to you that he returns safely. And since he is not volunteering, I would gladly ask you to thank him for his work.

 

[acd]

Volunteer as in he chose to join up.. as opposed to being drafted and dragged into regiment.

 

[alcyone]

Merriam Webster says:

volunteer
1: a person who voluntarily undertakes or expresses a willingness to undertake a service: as a: one who enters into military service voluntarily b (1): one who renders a service or takes part in a transaction while having no legal concern or interest (2): one who receives a conveyance or transfer of property without giving valuable consideration
2: a volunteer plant
3capitalized [Volunteers of America] : a member of a quasi-military religious and philanthropic organization founded in 1896 by Commander and Mrs. Ballington Booth


voluntary

1 : proceeding from the will or from one's own choice or consent
2 : unconstrained by interference : self-determining
3 : done by design or intention : intentional <voluntary manslaughter>
4 : of, relating to, subject to, or regulated by the will <voluntary behavior>
5 : having power of free choice
6 : provided or supported by voluntary action <a voluntary organization>
7 : acting or done of one's own free will without valuable consideration or legal obligation
— vol

 

[Duty]

Why?

Because there are plenty of things that people who don't want to carry a gun or be directly involved in combat operations can do here stateside. Before Bush and Co. started stripping the military of it's engineering corps, computer techs, back office paper pushers, and contracting out the work to civilian agencies, the military would also have the man power and the ability (read training, skills etc) to build what is broken. Not only would the non-volunteer selective service people be given a couple years to transition into adult independence, but they could also have some valuable skill training, put away some money for college, party a bit and get it out of their systems before actually committing themselves to college and careers after it.

There are plenty of menial chores and jobs that could become the purview of the Non-Volunteer Service Corps.

And as a free citizen, I don't need the military to tell me how I should grow up and live life. I have the choice to do that the way I want to. I guess you just don't care about my freedom and think everyone should be indoctrinated with military values and discipline then?

I could care less if someone has a moral objection to the military. And for the stupid people who believe that the military is little more than state sanctioned mass murder, I pity the depth of their ignorance and would encourage them to pursue studies in military history in order to educate themselves about the various other operations that the military has been involved in.

Granted, the military has done more then just kill others, but ask anyone what their fundamental job is and the reply you get will be something about forceful protection. Inventing, research, and the like can be done by institutions that are far more peaceful, the military's main duty is to kill people that our government hates.

As for my having respect for people who detest violence and won't support the institution, I wouldn't say I have respect for their decision. I acknowledge their right to have that opinion, but I don't respect it.

And really, I should stop right here...you have no respect...see your signature.

As for those who abhor it, well....Sheep are meant to be sheared. If you aren't willing to preserve your freedom, then apparently you don't care very much for it.

How was any major US offensive in the last 50 years a preservation of our freedom? Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, Iraq...none of these were a threat to America. I'd argue that the sheep are the ones who buy into "preserving freedom."

Now, I won't argue that we don't need a military to protect ourselves (in that case I just will say that personally I could never take a life), but the military is not used for doing that...it's used when our politicians don't like someone and want them to behave in a way that benefits us...or when the public is scared of some other country and wants to feel safe again, when there really is no direct danger.

Total cop out. It's so much easier to decry responsibility for the way the political system actually works by whining about how your personal views aren't adequately represented, instead of using what is available in order to try and strike a balance between what we actually have.

Cop out? Do you seriously think that elections accurately portray what you are voting for? It seems like a big advertising scheme on both sides if you ask me...buy my product instead of their's.

 

[pogo_<3]

Merriam Webster says:

volunteer
1: a person who voluntarily undertakes or expresses a willingness to undertake a service: as a: one who enters into military service voluntarily b (1): one who renders a service or takes part in a transaction while having no legal concern or interest (2): one who receives a conveyance or transfer of property without giving valuable consideration
2: a volunteer plant
3capitalized [Volunteers of America] : a member of a quasi-military religious and philanthropic organization founded in 1896 by Commander and Mrs. Ballington Booth


voluntary

1 : proceeding from the will or from one's own choice or consent
2 : unconstrained by interference : self-determining
3 : done by design or intention : intentional <voluntary manslaughter>
4 : of, relating to, subject to, or regulated by the will <voluntary behavior>
5 : having power of free choice
6 : provided or supported by voluntary action <a voluntary organization>
7 : acting or done of one's own free will without valuable consideration or legal obligation

 

[alcyone]

pogo~ The point of posting the definitions of the words you took umbarge of was to demonstrate that there is MORE than one meaning to the word. It encompasses your interpetation of the word, as well as calling someone in the military a 'volunteer'.

And for future reference, yellow isn't the best color to use to highlight something.

 

[Faye]

It is common knowledge that you have to sign up for selective service in the U.S.A. We are slaves of the state and expendable in the eyes of the state, the politicians, and society in general. In the event that the imperial interests of the state are threatened too greatly, we (the young men) will be sacrificed so that the rich can keep their profit. That is how it goes. "Beware the military industrial complex".

War is a business- one that is usually profitable.

 

[alcyone]

And as a free citizen, I don't need the military to tell me how I should grow up and live life. I have the choice to do that the way I want to. I guess you just don't care about my freedom and think everyone should be indoctrinated with military values and discipline then?

Looking at what is happening in the social sphere of American society maybe a little indoctrination of values would be a good thing.

Hmmm Lets look at some of the values that the military tries to instill in its personnal.

Air Force
Integrity First
Service Before Self
Excellence in All We Do

Army
Loyalty
Duty
Respect
Selfless-Service
Honor
Integrity
Personal Courage

USN/USMC
Honor
Courage
Commitment

USCG
Honor
Respect
Devotion to Duty

Wow! These are such horrible things I don't know what I was thinking when I said that we could use more of them in society at large!

Granted, the military has done more then just kill others, but ask anyone what their fundamental job is and the reply you get will be something about forceful protection. Inventing, research, and the like can be done by institutions that are far more peaceful, the military's main duty is to kill people that our government hates.

Hmmm....that is such a trite and narrow viewpoint I have no possible way to discuss it.

And really, I should stop right here...you have no respect...see your signature.

Now, I was enjoying this exchange until this comment. I took a good look at my signature and fail to see how you are qualified to make such a judgement call about ME. You want to sink to character assassination and mud slinging you've got me revved up to go a few rounds. You want to move this to a new thread and continue with some vituperation?

Respect is earned. There is no one in the world I am required to respect because they exist. There is no one I have to respect because they have an opinion. And there certainly isn't anything that says I have to respect someone for their opinions!

How was any major US offensive in the last 50 years a preservation of our freedom? Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, Iraq...none of these were a threat to America. I'd argue that the sheep are the ones who buy into "preserving freedom."

Sure, of course you're right. It's better to just let totalitarian governments do whatever they want to anyone they want. As long as they don't threaten us directly no biggie right? Why don't we just give Iran and NK ICBM nukes instead of waiting and hoping they can't develop one themselves. Hell, lets just give them to Al Quaida and the Taliban while we are at it!

None of your above mentioned altercations were a direct threat to the soverngity of the continential US, but what if....What if we hadn't done a thing? As unsavory as the concept is, our involvement in those wars may have been necessary. It must suck to think about those kinds of things when your viewpoint is so hardwired and incontestible. I guess you've never contemplated that at times the most distasteful things are necessary for the good of all in the long view. Governments and nations who desire the aquisition of other nations aren't going to stop after they get the one they want. They may pause for a while to consolidate their position, but eventually...the grass starts to look greener on the other side of that fence. And then their military machine rolls on to acquire new pastures.

What would have happened if the US and the Allies had jumped down Germany's throat right after they invaded Austria? Or after Italy invaded Ethopia?

Now, I won't argue that we don't need a military to protect ourselves (in that case I just will say that personally I could never take a life), but the military is not used for doing that...it's used when our politicians don't like someone and want them to behave in a way that benefits us...or when the public is scared of some other country and wants to feel safe again, when there really is no direct danger.

Now, I have problems with your ambiguity here. You wouldn't take a stand if it was necessary....but it's okay for others to protect you?

Once again, you're blaming politicians....are you active in a civic sphere at all? Are you in communication with your elected officials? Are you active in groups that espouse your particular position? Or are you taking the stance that "I can't do anything about it so I'm going to just bitch and complain to the rest of the world how unfair it is."

You don't have any solutions to put forth so all you do is rehash a problem. 'Politicians use the military to kill people they hate'....As your claim is thus far unsubstianted I have no motivation to consider your position in any sort of consideration. Last time I checked Senator Nelson from Nebraska isn't sending a battalion to Iraq to kill anyone he hates. Nor does Senator Feingold from Wisconsin have troops obeying his commands.

Cop out? Do you seriously think that elections accurately portray what you are voting for? It seems like a big advertising scheme on both sides if you ask me...buy my product instead of their's.

Considering that I look up the positions the canidates take on various issues, and then support that canidate as long as they are involved...Yeah. I do vote for what I want.

I learn about what my state canidates are doing, I learn what the local canidates are doing. If I get the chance to vote in an election, I learn about the people I'm voting for.

Unfortuantely my preferred canidate didn't make it to the finals. It sucked but what else can I do? When the choice is limited to two.....I have to take the one I deem to be the lesser of two evils.

But then, I work with the system that is in place. I don't cry about how unfair it is and how the canidates don't really portray what I believe.