Military Draft

[Shai Gar]

Looking at what is happening in the social sphere of American society maybe a little indoctrination of values would be a good thing.

Hmmm Lets look at some of the values that the military tries to instill in its personnal.

USN/USMC
Hoo-Haa
Kill the Haji
Kill the sand nigger
Kill the rag head
Kill the slanty
Kill chinky charlie

edited for truth

 

[IndigoSensor]

Service Before Self
Loyalty
Duty
Honor
Devotion to Duty

Wow! These are such horrible things I don't know what I was thinking when I said that we could use more of them in society at large!

All of those that are there are turn-offs for me. Let alone I do not allow people to instill values into me; only I am incharge of doing that. My father has been trying to "break" me for years. He hasn't done so well so far. When I tell people I have a very strong will, I mean it.

I do not do well with people telling me what to do, particulary if I am not allowed to interpret, discuss, or question it. If you tell me to do something, and I don't agree with it, I largely will not do it.

You say everyone should experience the military. Well, not everyone is meant for it. Think of it this way, it is like telling an artist to go design a chemical pump system. They do not have the skill, mind, expereience, abillity, or will to go do that.

 

[alcyone]

Everyone should experience some sort of compulsory service to the benefit of the community. The military and those involved in operations in support of them should be reserved for those who are volunteers.

 

[IndigoSensor]

Ok that I agree with.

Although I would be lying if I said I didn't have a repulsion response to having to do some kind of service to benifit socieity against my choice.

I really can't explain it. But I have a strong adversion response at being told to do something as part of a group, or for a group.

 

[Shai Gar]

Everyone should experience some sort of compulsory service to the benefit of the community. The military and those involved in operations in support of them should be reserved for those who are volunteers.

Like I told the Colonel who tried to convince me to join the army when he was around for dinner one night, "If you give me a gun, expect me to kill you with it." That pretty much goes for everyone. If Australia voted back in the Draft, I'd go on a Terroristic rampage slaughtering millions. Noone takes my right of choice away from me.

or to quote the general from Yes Prime Minister, "We can't have the draft. We'll have a bunch of Hoodlums, Punks and Druggies, like the Americans have."

 

[alcyone]

or to quote the general from Yes Prime Minister, "We can't have the draft. We'll have a bunch of Hoodlums, Punks and Druggies, like the Americans have."

It sucks that the worst of the military get the most media press. Which in turn is what the mass perception is based off of. But people being what they are; are more attracted to the worst about something, than the best.

The same can be said of countless other institutions, organizations, countries, governments, etc.

 

[Duty]

Hmmm Lets look at some of the values that the military tries to instill in its personnal.

...

USCG
Honor
Respect
Devotion to Duty

I wish...

Wow! These are such horrible things I don't know what I was thinking when I said that we could use more of them in society at large!

Well, once again I can say I can grant that they try to instill those values, but I don't think you see the harmful ones they instill (correct me if I'm wrong):
Obedience before Intelligence
Hate the Communist/Godless Person/whoever the government doesn't like atm
Kill who you're told to kill
Buy into the government's point of view
Aggressively take what you want


I'd like to ask what advances have been made in psychology and the promotion of human well-being have been made by the military. I'm not aware of any.

Hmmm....that is such a trite and narrow viewpoint I have no possible way to discuss it.

You're very convincing...

Now, I was enjoying this exchange until this comment. I took a good look at my signature and fail to see how you are qualified to make such a judgement call about ME. You want to sink to character assassination and mud slinging you've got me revved up to go a few rounds. You want to move this to a new thread and continue with some vituperation?

Respect is earned. There is no one in the world I am required to respect because they exist. There is no one I have to respect because they have an opinion. And there certainly isn't anything that says I have to respect someone for their opinions!

And here is the most major of problems the military causes. You're exemplifying it in my opinion.

The fundamental problem of the world is that people don't respect each other on the very fact that we're all human beings with emotion, intelligence (some more then others ), and are deserving of a fundamental respect and dignity. The world does not have what Buddhists call "Metta" and ancient Greeks/Christians call "Agape."

We are all human beings with needs. The very basics of ethics dictates that we not encroach on the needs of each other. The military kills people. Now, I'm not an idealist and I recognize that other people and nations don't have much metta either, but dammit, two wrongs don't make a right...and that's where I see we are. We need a military to protect us from those that would do us harm, but lately we are the people that others need protecting from.

Sure, of course you're right. It's better to just let totalitarian governments do whatever they want to anyone they want. As long as they don't threaten us directly no biggie right? Why don't we just give Iran and NK ICBM nukes instead of waiting and hoping they can't develop one themselves. Hell, lets just give them to Al Quaida and the Taliban while we are at it!

None of your above mentioned altercations were a direct threat to the soverngity of the continential US, but what if....What if we hadn't done a thing? As unsavory as the concept is, our involvement in those wars may have been necessary. It must suck to think about those kinds of things when your viewpoint is so hardwired and incontestible. I guess you've never contemplated that at times the most distasteful things are necessary for the good of all in the long view. Governments and nations who desire the aquisition of other nations aren't going to stop after they get the one they want. They may pause for a while to consolidate their position, but eventually...the grass starts to look greener on the other side of that fence. And then their military machine rolls on to acquire new pastures.

What would have happened if the US and the Allies had jumped down Germany's throat right after they invaded Austria? Or after Italy invaded Ethopia?

This just sounds like fear mongering. "Fear Iraq because they will kill you!" Yes, fear Iraq's expansive air force and 12,000 miles of distance and huge navy that can missile us so easily...

Once again, I don't say we don't need a military. It's unfortunate that we do but it is necessary. Neither do I argue against our actions in WWII. But since then it's been a joke...Vietnam and Iraq were supported purely from propaganda fear mongering toward the public.

Still, I think on a personal level that those in the military are sadly ethically mistaken. I just don't understand that by what right people think they can take the lives of others. The only answer I can see is they think they can do it because their government sanctions it.

Now, I have problems with your ambiguity here. You wouldn't take a stand if it was necessary....but it's okay for others to protect you?

In any war both sides inevitably see the other as the aggressors or the wrong or the threatening ones. So on a personal level I won't be the one to encroach on the rights of others. I won't kill because I don't have the right to kill. I find it a shame others don't share that perspective, but I do understand why they don't.

Once again, you're blaming politicians....are you active in a civic sphere at all? Are you in communication with your elected officials? Are you active in groups that espouse your particular position? Or are you taking the stance that "I can't do anything about it so I'm going to just bitch and complain to the rest of the world how unfair it is."

You don't have any solutions to put forth so all you do is rehash a problem.

You're right, I don't have a solution. The political system/world is a huge mess. I just refuse to delude myself into thinking that shooting at other people is going to solve our problems. I refuse to delude myself into thinking that politicians or the government as a whole has our best interests at heart, and that politicians were voted in on the "wisdom" of their constituents.

It's an insult to my intelligence to actually buy into this mob we call the government. And that's what it is: a mob. If you don't pay taxes (protection money to pay the military and police, amongst some others things), then they send those police to throw you in prison. If you don't think you should go to prison because you don't want to give away your money, the police bully you with night sticks and force you to go to prison.

 

[acd]

Everyone should experience some sort of compulsory service to the benefit of the community. The military and those involved in operations in support of them should be reserved for those who are volunteers.

I certainly wouldn't mind being of service to my community. In fact, that's what I strive for... but like IS said, I choose my own values and what is of value to me.

Just so happens I don't take kindly to being compelled to do anything-- especially when in order to be compelled, I have to be manipulated and lied to by demagogues and pundits sicced upon the population by those in power with an agenda... and harassed with propaganda circulated to get me all riled up.

Also, I don't believe in giving my life for a country in which in order for that country to sustain it's current system, there needs to be a caste of underprivileged exploited.

 

[Duty]

Everyone should experience some sort of compulsory service to the benefit of the community. The military and those involved in operations in support of them should be reserved for those who are volunteers.

We have this, it's called employment. Serve people at a restaurant so people can be entertained/fed. Clean the school as a janitor so children don't get diseased. Manage this convenience store's personnel so people can benefit from having someone to help them.

The only people that don't have to serve society are people born rich...but that's another argument for another time.

 

[bamf]

We have this, it's called employment. Serve people at a restaurant so people can be entertained/fed. Clean the school as a janitor so children don't get diseased. Manage this convenience store's personnel so people can benefit from having someone to help them.

The only people that don't have to serve society are people born rich...but that's another argument for another time.

Um...strawman?

How is employment community service?

 

[Creon]

To despise the army is immature. To praise it, or seek answers from it, is pitiful. To avoid mandatory military service is cowardly. To volunteer to join the army is insane. The army has only one purpose, only one raison d'etre, and no other. When and If the need arises, soldiers have to protect the rest of society with their lives. It's the worst thing a man can do, to kill, but if the need arises, he may have no other option. To save his own world from a predator, he will kill.

I believe the problem lies in that "if the need arises" sentence. Especially when we're talking about offensive wars. The army is just a neutral mechanism, neither to be demonized, nor to be lionized. After all, "war is just the continuation of politics by other means" (Clauzewitz).

 

[alcyone]

I wish...




Well, once again I can say I can grant that they try to instill those values, but I don't think you see the harmful ones they instill (correct me if I'm wrong):
Obedience before Intelligence
Hate the Communist/Godless Person/whoever the government doesn't like atm
Kill who you're told to kill
Buy into the government's point of view
Aggressively take what you want


I'd like to ask what advances have been made in psychology and the promotion of human well-being have been made by the military. I'm not aware of any.

Are you a media parrot or do you actually have some credible evidence that this is what happens to people in the military? Since you have no experience in the military you shouldn't be making these kinds of assumptions about things you have no experience with.

I don't remember going to any brainwashing training after 9/11 that made me hate Muslims. And I don't remember any brainwashing training telling me to hate Iraq and kill them all. In fact I was in the military and vocally against going to war with Iraq! And I wasn't the only one.

Aggressively take what I want.....Hmmmmm I want a lot of stuff but I don't recall using force, weapons, violence or anything to get them.

Kill who you're told to kill. Are you really this ignorant? Do you know what the Law of Armed Conflict says? Funny, I DO remember being retrained in LOAC every year I was in. But then again, I wasn't the one pushing the release button on the bombs I built. That decision came from those above me.

Obeidence before Intelligence. Nope. Not taught that one either. I have to follow lawful orders, but if I believe an order to be questionable or against the law, then I have the right to not follow it.

Buy into the Government point of view. Don't know where you come up with this drivel. If you refer to the current political party whose representive is Commander in Chief...Nope. I don't have to buy into it. I don't have to agree with it. But I DO have to follow the lawful orders of those appointed above me. There is a WORLD of difference there.

I did not have autonmony, or authority, or whatever do do what I pleased with all the stuff I worked with. No one in the military does.

And here is the most major of problems the military causes. You're exemplifying it in my opinion.

Oh really. You make a judgement on me, I take offense to your judgement and you slandering me. Your making a personal attack against me, and my response to it, becomes the major problem that the military causes?

Really. So what you're saying is that I can make personal attacks against you because you are uneducated, spineless, and ignorant and make it part of the problem with people whose opinions are anti-military? No sir, I do NOT have the right to make a personal judgement or character attack like that about you no matter what I think about your opinion on a matter. And I also don't have the right to tie my interpertation of your personal flaws to an institution or organization.

I'm exemplifying the problems caused by the way the military is being used today because I took offense to a comment you made about ME? Explain your reasoning. Make it through.

This just sounds like fear mongering. "Fear Iraq because they will kill you!" Yes, fear Iraq's expansive air force and 12,000 miles of distance and huge navy that can missile us so easily...

Iraq wasn't a threat. I've never said it was. But you failed to deliniate how the other countries we engaged in war against weren't, or couldn't become a threat. Can you say that Korea (wasn't) isn't a threat? Are we supposed to not get involved if a country asks for our assistance against an invading nation? What kind of human rights advocate would we be if that was our world foreign policy?

Still, I think on a personal level that those in the military are sadly ethically mistaken. I just don't understand that by what right people think they can take the lives of others. The only answer I can see is they think they can do it because their government sanctions it.

Hmmmm.....if someone has decided to commit his/her life to killing you and your fellow countrymen for no other reason than you are American....I guess in your opinion it is better to just do nothing. You going to be among the first to kneel down and accept the executioner's bullet for no better reason than you are an American?

And once again, the Government sanctioning it, are the ones elected by the American Public.

You're right, I don't have a solution. The political system/world is a huge mess. I just refuse to delude myself into thinking that shooting at other people is going to solve our problems. I refuse to delude myself into thinking that politicians or the government as a whole has our best interests at heart, and that politicians were voted in on the "wisdom" of their constituents.

Do you boil everything down to the simplest possible interpetation of politics, foreign policy, or the events that lead up to a military conflict?

How much history do you actually know about how military conflicts get started? Do you think that the President woke up one day and decided to start bombing Vietnam? Did President Roosevelt just wake up one morning and decide to join the war?

It's an insult to my intelligence to actually buy into this mob we call the government. And that's what it is: a mob. If you don't pay taxes (protection money to pay the military and police, amongst some others things), then they send those police to throw you in prison. If you don't think you should go to prison because you don't want to give away your money, the police bully you with night sticks and force you to go to prison.

Paying taxes is a law. It's been a law for a long time now. The job of the police is to enforce laws, andremand those who are breaking laws to the justice system.

Substantiate your claim that if I don't pay my taxes I'm going to get beat up by the police with their night sticks. And they are going to 'force' me to go to prison, last time I checked I had to break laws before being forced into prison. Which by a strict interpertation of force isn't accurate as I made a choice to break the law. And was stupid enough to get caught and jailed for it.

The police don't put you in prison. The justice system does. A Court of Law does. Did you pay attention in your high school civics and government classes?

 

[bamf]

alcyone, there is no use arguing with someone who's stance is riddled with logical fallacies.

There is no simple answer to anything and to deal with absolutes is ignoring what the problem/question was in the beginning. Nay-sayers will be nay-sayers.

Duty, I'm sorry if you don't want to pay taxes...but I'd like you to refund me and the entire community for all of the public services you have used. Feel free to go into debt because I'm sure you can't afford them on your own.

 

[bamf]

Oh, and having been arrested myself, police in general are very nice people. If you have a problem with the laws, blame it on the justice system. Not the men and women who work day and night to protect you from people like me.

 

[secretsmile]

And once again, fighting will always happen and has happened since the beginning of humankind. Like it or not, it is human nature to fight. It's one thing we're REALLY good at.

I read earlier in the argument that you had said that war was inevitable, and the only thing we were good at. While that may be the case of your husband

Wow, you really twisted that, didn't you? Good job. And that was a nice little jab at my husband. I wonder, would you have the balls to say that to my face? Anonymity on the internet is lovely, isn't it?

Uh no, I did not say it's the "only thing" we are good at. I said it's ONE THING we're really good at. I'm sorry you read it wrong (or how you wanted to read it so you could form some kind of baseless argument against me). We are animals, we have instincts, and on a purely instinctual level, we like POWER. Power makes you the 'most likely species to survive.' I realize that you are religious and may not agree that we are indeed animals, but we are. And I am a firm believer in the fact that fighting has been and always will be inherent human nature. It's certainly not pleasant, but plenty of things we deal with as human beings are not pleasant. I'm saying this because while there will always be people opposed to war, wars will continue to happen. I didn't say I like it. Do you think I'm happy my husband is gone? Do you think I'm happy that something could happen to him? Do you think he's running around over there going "I can't wait to kill me some Iraqis"? I mean, I feel sorry for anyone who allows themselves to be spoonfed their opinions by the media. Really.

My husband is a freedom loving INTP. He cannot stand being in the military. He came from a poor family. He didn't join the military to kill. He specifically joined to be a photographer because he couldn't afford art school and therefore chose the only artistic field in the military. He joined at the urging of his mother, because he didn't want to be a financial burden by living with his parents anymore. Many of you have an outdated, skewed view of military personnel. You need to keep your political views focused on the politicians and their policies, NOT the people who are in the military. I'm not saying there aren't racists and idiots in the military, because there are (and to me and many people I know they are an embarrassment to any branch of service, and are not a true representation of the military as a whole). There are plenty of idiots and racists outside of the military as well. There are very few people in the military who fancy the idea of deploying and killing anyone (I have personally met NONE, and I have been around the military since BIRTH). I mean, you are disillusioned if you believe everyone is going over there eager to kill anyone. In fact, PTSD is very real. VERY real. Do you even realize why people are suffering from PTSD? If they were so enjoying themselves over there, do you think they'd be suffering like that?

Honestly, much of what I'm reading here sickens me. I really have no problem saying that.

voluteering for ANYTHING is a thankless job. Thats why its volunteering, and not work. When you join the army, marines, navy, or any other branch of military voluntarily, you are NOT volunteering. Does your husband or yourself recieve pay for his services? If so, he is NOT a volunteer. He is simply going to work. If he happens to stop by the animal shelter on his way home from deployment and put in a few hours, THEN he can be called a volunteer. Im not trying to stir trouble, its just a simple fact. And I hope to you that he returns safely. And since he is not volunteering, I would gladly ask you to thank him for his work.

You're not trying to stir trouble? Well sorry, but you did.

 

[bamf]

Wow, you really twisted that, didn't you? Good job. And that was a nice little jab at my husband. I wonder, would you have the balls to say that to my face? Anonymity on the internet is lovely, isn't it?

Uh no, I did not say it's the "only thing" we are good at. I said it's ONE THING we're really good at. I'm sorry you read it wrong (or how you wanted to read it so you could form some kind of baseless argument against me). We are animals, we have instincts, and on a purely instinctual level, we like POWER. Power makes you the 'most likely species to survive.' I realize that you are religious and may not agree that we are indeed animals, but we are. And I am a firm believer in the fact that fighting has been and always will be inherent human nature. It's certainly not pleasant, but plenty of things we deal with as human beings are not pleasant. I'm saying this because while there will always be people opposed to war, wars will continue to happen. I didn't say I like it. Do you think I'm happy my husband is gone? Do you think I'm happy that something could happen to him? Do you think he's running around over there going "I can't wait to kill me some Iraqis"? I mean, I feel sorry for anyone who allows themselves to be spoonfed their opinions by the media. Really.

My husband is a freedom loving INTP. He cannot stand being in the military. He came from a poor family. He didn't join the military to kill. He specifically joined to be a photographer because he couldn't afford art school and therefore chose the only artistic field in the military. He joined at the urging of his mother, because he didn't want to be a financial burden by living with his parents anymore. Many of you have an outdated, skewed view of military personnel. You need to keep your political views focused on the politicians and their policies, NOT the people who are in the military. I'm not saying there aren't racists and idiots in the military, because there are (and to me and many people I know they are an embarrassment to any branch of service, and are not a true representation of the military as a whole). There are plenty of idiots and racists outside of the military as well. There are very few people in the military who fancy the idea of deploying and killing anyone (I have personally met NONE, and I have been around the military since BIRTH). I mean, you are disillusioned if you believe everyone is going over there eager to kill anyone. In fact, PTSD is very real. VERY real. Do you even realize why people are suffering from PTSD? If they were so enjoying themselves over there, do you think they'd be suffering like that?

Honestly, much of what I'm reading here sickens me. I really have no problem saying that.



You're not trying to stir trouble? Well sorry, but you did.

try and ignore the nay-sayers. They only feed off of your anger. You can't reason through unreasonable and illogical arguments.

 

[Shai Gar]

Oh, and having been arrested myself, police in general are very nice people. If you have a problem with the laws, blame it on the justice system. Not the men and women who work day and night to protect you from people like me.

[YOUTUBE]p53ky3RIjfU[/YOUTUBE]

Yeah, real nice.
It took me 2 seconds to get that video and I wasn't trying.

 

[pogo_<3]

try and ignore the nay-sayers. They only feed off of your anger. You can't reason through unreasonable and illogical arguments.

I apologize in advance for my apparent "ignorance", but what exactly is the point of a --debate (I believe that would consitute as an appropriate word for the context) if you ignore the other parties? Is that close-minded? Or just shallow? That to me just seems like your only purpose on here is to tell people what to think, and if they disagree in the slightest, "ignore them". Why bother? All I'm trying to do is get my point across, so that you and your fellow ignorers will stop lashing out. People have opinions-->EVERYONE HAS OPINIONS. Therefore conflicting opinions, unlike war, are inevitable.

 

[just me]

Alcyone and secretsmile; will you be my friends?

 

[Shai Gar]

pogo, I don't think this was a debate, it was a person who just found out something they didn't like, and then two opposing sides butted heads.