My case that America is not the greatest country on earth...

[Lucifer]

And I said I wasn't going to enter into this...silly me. Warning, this is a huge, epic ranty Mcrant pants that flies off topic quite a bit. So, warning is necessary.

People may not notice this, but here's a clue-by-four: If you're a minority, you have to be exceptional to be noticed. Not normal, not a little bit above normal. I mean EXCEPTIONAL. You have to break everyone's glass ceiling. Your shit cannot stink for one second, or those hounds of hell will tear you to ribbons before you say one word. Once you're at the top you're fairly safe (unless you pull an OJ Simpson). But you have to be considered near deity to be "accepted" by the masses. Otherwise, people will simply compare you to "that" minority down the street who messed up. Perception here is *not* equal. There is no good ol' boy's club for minorities; minorities aren't grandfathered in by their peers. You have to claw your way up by blowing away EVERYONE'S prejudices of what your group is "supposed to" act like.

In short, you have to change people's perceptions enough that they see you as a human being first (rather than your skin color). And that can take time.

Thought to ponder: How many blockbuster movies have we seen with only a multiracial cast? How many popular TV shows? How many fantasies? I'm not saying they don't exist. Hear me. I'm saying they're rare as hen's teeth.

Why is that--?

And that's my rant for the day.

Clue-by-four? Hilarious!

Yeah I've seen this in action.

Like Lawrence Olivier is considered at least as good as Marlon Brando in terms of acting ability but who has more notoriety? The white guy.

The same goes for being a woman. Particularly if your doing a job that is traditionally male.

 

[Shai Gar]

but nowhere as easily as in America where class and position arent relevant, money is.

Bullshit.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[Stu]

Like Lawrence Olivier is considered at least as good as Marlon Brando in terms of acting ability but who has more notoriety? The white guy.

The same goes for being a woman. Particularly if your doing a job that is traditionally male.[/QUOTE]

they were both white

 

[Entyqua]

Bullshit.
Posted via Mobile Device

shockingly agreed...

Back to the vote mattering line...It doesn't...Thanks to the Electoral College! If you don't vote with the majority of your state your vote doesn't count...For example, if your states residences primarily vote Republican, and you vote democratic, or independent...Your vote is dropped off the voting totals...If your state is red..only the red votes are counted...So essentially..don't conform...your vote doesnt count!

 

[NeverAmI]

I disagree. I think the last election was an indication of how important each person's vote actually is. The problem is when politicians misrepresent themselves and actually represent special interest groups. I think that there needs to be more regulation. Deregulation of some industries is what actually got us into the mess we are in. The pharmacutical companies are actually exempt from the anti trust legislation which allows them to fix prices. Banks can not be counted to regulate themselves this is so clear. People need to be protected from others who would abuse their power. There is quite a bit of abuse. There were bankers who were acutally betting large amounts of money for their companies to fail. The problem is that so many people believe what others say wiithout really thinking about it. Sometimes you just cant take something at face value especially if the person who is saying it is trying to gain power. I have a theory about this. In education there is a theory called Blooms Taxonomy which gives stages of how children develop their thinking skills. A low (or easier) type of thinking happens when you are summarizing something, or repeating facts. Higher on the scale is critical thinking, synthesizing (taking information and applying it) and evaluating (taking information and making judgments about it). People have to be taught critical thinking skills (or how to think for yourself). I think there are many adults who have not developed the higher level thinking skills which is why they are so easily convinced by propaganda.

The popular vote doesn't elect presidents.

Yes, we can threaten not to vote for our state officials the next time around if they don't meet our expectations, and our votes count at the state level, but at the national level?

Nope, our officials vote them in.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[NeverAmI]

And I said I wasn't going to enter into this...silly me. Warning, this is a huge, epic ranty Mcrant pants that flies off topic quite a bit. So, warning is necessary.

People may not notice this, but here's a clue-by-four: If you're a minority, you have to be exceptional to be noticed. Not normal, not a little bit above normal. I mean EXCEPTIONAL. You have to break everyone's glass ceiling. Your shit cannot stink for one second, or those hounds of hell will tear you to ribbons before you say one word. Once you're at the top you're fairly safe (unless you pull an OJ Simpson). But you have to be considered near deity to be "accepted" by the masses. Otherwise, people will simply compare you to "that" minority down the street who messed up. Perception here is *not* equal. There is no good ol' boy's club for minorities; minorities aren't grandfathered in by their peers. You have to claw your way up by blowing away EVERYONE'S prejudices of what your group is "supposed to" act like.

In short, you have to change people's perceptions enough that they see you as a human being first (rather than your skin color). And that can take time.

Thought to ponder: How many blockbuster movies have we seen with only a multiracial cast? How many popular TV shows? How many fantasies? I'm not saying they don't exist. Hear me. I'm saying they're rare as hen's teeth.

Why is that--?

And that's my rant for the day.

Agreed.

 

[NeverAmI]

We are a materially rich and psychologically poor country.

We are SO freaking broke that we have to borrow money from China.

What happens when no one is willing to lend us money anymore???

In terms of individuals, you are correct in most circumstances.

 

[Entyqua]

We are SO freaking broke that we have to borrow money from China.

What happens when no one is willing to lend us money anymore???

better question for you...what happens when they all decide to collect?

 

[sookie]

The popular vote doesn't elect presidents.

Yes, we can threaten not to vote for our state officials the next time around if they don't meet our expectations, and our votes count at the state level, but at the national level?

Nope, our officials vote them in.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

If it was even closer than it was it could have gone to the electoral college where officials vote. I disagree with this. I agree that the electoral college muddies the water. Some states are given too much importants and have too many electoral college votes. So some politicians actually do use strategy on which states to bombard with money and media in order to get people to vote. I would not, however, divorce the average person from the process. Peoples votes really do matter. This is an far more intricate than putting it into a strickly black and white, right or wrong answer. It is more complicated than simply- peoples votes dont count.

 

[Stu]

better question for you...what happens when they all decide to collect?

To answer that, think of a nuclear armed Bernie Madoff

 

[bamf]

better question for you...what happens when they all decide to collect?

We really don't have to worry about the China asking for their money back. Their economy is so dependent on ours that if they bankrupt us, they bankrupt themselves.

However, it's ridiculous to think other nations of the world essentially own our money more than we do...

 

[bamf]

I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the electoral college put in place by the founders out of fear of the uneducated voter? They didn't trust the average American to actually understand what they are voting for (in all honesty, I think that would be a fair arguement today; that a lot of voters are uneducated in what they are voting on and/or who they are voting for).

I do however think that the electoral college should be done away with. We elect all other leaders without it, (we even directly vote senators now), why shouldn't the president be a direct election as well?

 

[sookie]

MF I think your right. But each state gets a number of votes. If a person does not win the popular vote he/she does not win the state and the electoral college votes. This is why 1 person (uneducated or educated) vote does count even though there is something of a filter because of the electoral college. It gets dangerous when the race is so close that the officals who make up the electoral college votes for whoever they think and not who their state wants by popular vote. I disagree with that SO MUCH. The Bush/Gore election was one where Gore won the popular vote and but Bush one the election (well sort of). Again it was a very close, highly disputed race. The Supreme Court had to get involved.

 

[Stu]

I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the electoral college put in place by the founders out of fear of the uneducated voter? They didn't trust the average American to actually understand what they are voting for (in all honesty, I think that would be a fair arguement today; that a lot of voters are uneducated in what they are voting on and/or who they are voting for).

I do however think that the electoral college should be done away with. We elect all other leaders without it, (we even directly vote senators now), why shouldn't the president be a direct election as well?

this is why voting in every election is important. To truly have power over elected officials the electorate must vote in high percentages in all elections. Individual states are holding onto the electoral college so they can increase their power in deciding presidential elections. there is nothing stopping states from mandating their electoral votes to be divided up by congressional districts or by county or whatever

 

[testing]

And I said I wasn't going to enter into this...silly me. Warning, this is a huge, epic ranty Mcrant pants that flies off topic quite a bit. So, warning is necessary.

People may not notice this, but here's a clue-by-four: If you're a minority, you have to be exceptional to be noticed. Not normal, not a little bit above normal. I mean EXCEPTIONAL. You have to break everyone's glass ceiling. Your shit cannot stink for one second, or those hounds of hell will tear you to ribbons before you say one word. Once you're at the top you're fairly safe (unless you pull an OJ Simpson). But you have to be considered near deity to be "accepted" by the masses. Otherwise, people will simply compare you to "that" minority down the street who messed up. Perception here is *not* equal. There is no good ol' boy's club for minorities; minorities aren't grandfathered in by their peers. You have to claw your way up by blowing away EVERYONE'S prejudices of what your group is "supposed to" act like.

In short, you have to change people's perceptions enough that they see you as a human being first (rather than your skin color). And that can take time.

Thought to ponder: How many blockbuster movies have we seen with only a multiracial cast? How many popular TV shows? How many fantasies? I'm not saying they don't exist. Hear me. I'm saying they're rare as hen's teeth.

Why is that--?

And that's my rant for the day.

Arby, I actually agree with what you are saying, as I've observed it too... but one thing I wonder, is: Is is really that different in other countries? Is America better or worse in this regard?

I suspect America is actually better than most countries as far as diversity, and the opportunities for minorities to succeed. I don't really have facts, but I believe it is probably easier to be a minority in America than in Europe or Asia because of the following:

I am a graphic designer; I make ads, brochures, books, etc. I choose the photos and lay out the documents. I do a little illustration too. In my previous job, I used to make brochures/ads/booklets for North America, Europe, and parts of Asia. I make it my policy that when I use photos of people, I include a diverse mix, NOT just white people. Plus, the American company had pretty strong anti-discrimination laws.

9 times out of 10, nobody would ever raise an eyebrow when I included minority photos for an American and Canadian audience. 9 times out of 10, I would be asked to change the minority photos if it was going to a European audience. For an Asian audience, the clients would want only Asian people. But I promise you, the European brochures would insist on only European-looking people, whereas the American clients accepted diverse photos.

Once I was asked to locate photos of (I kid you not) racially neutral people. (WTF?) Do you have any idea how hard this is?

Anyway, even though I agree with your statement, I am not at all convinced you'd easily find another country where minorities have an easier time. Would be interested to have some actual facts on this, however.

 

[Satya]

The Supreme Court had to get involved.

They did so at the request of the governor of Florida at that time. A certain guy by the name of Jeb Bush.

 

[NeverAmI]

If it was even closer than it was it could have gone to the electoral college where officials vote. I disagree with this. I agree that the electoral college muddies the water. Some states are given too much importants and have too many electoral college votes. So some politicians actually do use strategy on which states to bombard with money and media in order to get people to vote. I would not, however, divorce the average person from the process. Peoples votes really do matter. This is an far more intricate than putting it into a strickly black and white, right or wrong answer. It is more complicated than simply- peoples votes dont count.

This answer gives me hope, thanks.

 

[bamf]

MF I think your right. But each state gets a number of votes. If a person does not win the popular vote he/she does not win the state and the electoral college votes. This is why 1 person (uneducated or educated) vote does count even though there is something of a filter because of the electoral college. It gets dangerous when the race is so close that the officals who make up the electoral college votes for whoever they think and not who their state wants by popular vote. I disagree with that SO MUCH. The Bush/Gore election was one where Gore won the popular vote and but Bush one the election (well sort of). Again it was a very close, highly disputed race. The Supreme Court had to get involved.

Actually some states do split their electoral votes due to districts (Maine is the one I can think of, or they at least have the option to). I agree though, every vote counts (because the electors for the most part do vote with the majority). The problem I have with the electoral college is the exact thing you said. Popular vote doesn't equal win.

 

[arbygil]

Arby, I actually agree with what you are saying, as I've observed it too... but one thing I wonder, is: Is is really that different in other countries? Is America better or worse in this regard?

I suspect America is actually better than most countries as far as diversity, and the opportunities for minorities to succeed. I don't really have facts, but I believe it is probably easier to be a minority in America than in Europe or Asia because of the following:

I am a graphic designer; I make ads, brochures, books, etc. I choose the photos and lay out the documents. I do a little illustration too. In my previous job, I used to make brochures/ads/booklets for North America, Europe, and parts of Asia. I make it my policy that when I use photos of people, I include a diverse mix, NOT just white people. Plus, the American company had pretty strong anti-discrimination laws.

9 times out of 10, nobody would ever raise an eyebrow when I included minority photos for an American and Canadian audience. 9 times out of 10, I would be asked to change the minority photos if it was going to a European audience. For an Asian audience, the clients would want only Asian people. But I promise you, the European brochures would insist on only European-looking people, whereas the American clients accepted diverse photos.

Once I was asked to locate photos of (I kid you not) racially neutral people. (WTF?) Do you have any idea how hard this is?

Anyway, even though I agree with your statement, I am not at all convinced you'd easily find another country where minorities have an easier time. Would be interested to have some actual facts on this, however.

I think it depends on the country, Janet - and it depends on perception. Even though we may have the ads for racially diverse folk, it's still difficult to find a minority posing for an ad in say, GQ magazine. Some magazines are rather good at portraying a diverse cast set, but it's still usually just one color of folk rather than a mix of folk. It's getting better, yes. I think it helps that this generation is a bit more globally minded. But for good or for ill, the world often looks to the United States for perceptions on how things should be. Especially with movies and TV. If we can't get it together with our tired, huddled masses yearning to be free and our melting pots, how the heck can we expect the rest of the world to follow?

I would say this - out of all the countries in the world the US *should* be the least prejudiced because we are the mutts of the world. But sometimes I think some European countries have shown better examples of tolerance and diversity than we have (France, for one). What truly is frustrating is, we *have* the diversity, more than any nation on earth, I think, but we still opt to use one type of face to represent our country. That is ignorant and that is horrific, IMO. It's a totally ironic slap in the face. We shouldn't bat an eye. We're representing our population group. When other nations have our kind of diversity they should also be more willing to represent the new population group. Unfortunately the US has had no excuse in this regard. We should be the global example, but instead we can be the very poster child for intolerance. Very, very ironic.

But thank you, Janet, for trying to make the difference! We do need more people willing to do so.

 

[arbygil]

Like Lawrence Olivier is considered at least as good as Marlon Brando in terms of acting ability but who has more notoriety? The white guy.

The same goes for being a woman. Particularly if your doing a job that is traditionally male.

they were both white

I have a feeling she meant "Laurence Fishburne." Fishburne did a movie version of Othello and he's a marvelous Shakespearian actor.