Not allowed to build minarets anymore

[enfp can be shy]

Hey Yoda, I dont mind peaceful Muslims, just ya know those stereotypical ones who go around murdering people kinda make it hard to take the whole "its a religion of peace" thing seriously. And it isnt new, its been going on since Islams inception. History much?

But then again, why argue with the rest? And history shouldn't become a mere tool for prejudice.


I only agree that some cultural beliefs need to consider update to present reality. In that case it's about some architectural element. Also the idea to define the law just by measurements, not by culture.

 

[the]

An excerpt from the article:

He said Muslims were welcome in Switzerland but must assimilate into Swiss society.

If this is Switzerland, why do you want to be there anyway? Like you said, you are ashamed to call yourself Swiss, so move somewhere else and call yourself something else. It sounds like a lot of people want to be Swiss without actually being Swiss.

Ultimately Islam will breed itself into superiority, get fat on money (like the West), decide it's better to have 1 well off kid per family than many kids who have to wear hand-me-downs (like the West, Roman Catholics come to mind), and someone else will out breed them.

 

[Shai Gar]

Perhaps because she is swiss by birth and ancestry, and she wants to be proud of her nation again.

I am disgusted by my nation and am ashamed to call myself Australian. However, my ancestors helped build this nations most famous buildings, myths and helped usher in federation (Both sides of the family). When someone tells me perhaps I should move somewhere else, I tell them to get fucked because my family has done more for this nation in the PAST than theirs would ever do in the future.

I'm going to be a politician. I'll MAKE this country something to be proud of.

Perhaps she will do the same with hers.

 

[Morgain]

OK, to be brutally honest I would have voted in favor of such a law. Now before you shred me to pieces, let me explain a bit...

Muslim situation in Europe is quite different from US. They migrate here in large numbers from Turkey, Africa and the Middle East. And a lot of them do not even try to integrate into the society, they do not become Europeans, instead they just treat it as some kind of promised land that is their's for the taking. Consider this: how would you feel in US if Mexicans that come into your territory would start to treat it as their own and would require the former residents to adapt to their lifestyle? Unfortunately that's what is happening in western Europe. EU officials are tiptoeing around the issue and a lot of people are getting dissatisfied with it. So it's no wonder that laws like this can get popular support from the public. They do not do it because of intolerance to Islam but rather from the concern on their own safety.

The spread of Islamic culture generates a lot of friction because it conflicts with values and traditions of European culture. For example a lot of Muslims believe that religious rulings are of higher order than freedom of speech or even the civil government. Remember the feedback Danes got after publishing those caricatures? Now I consider myself a religious man but I do not have a sudden urge to blow things up every time someone makes fun of the Pope. The officials have legalized some pretty absurd regulations - like officially banning the story of the three piglets from the education system in UK just because it can hurt religious feelings of certain individuals. My personal opinion is that if religion tries to regulate things like that then it deserves certain restrictions itself. I value my freedom more.

So I interpret this law a symbolic call of attention to insecurities and problems that people are experiencing. Of course it would make no sense in a long run.

I feel exactly like this. This whole thing is also a hot topic in Belgium. Belgium is also trying to ban the headscarf from public places

the idea behind this is: "you are free to believe what you want to do, but other people don't need to know. Therefore it is not only a ban to the headscarf but to all religion signs.

The problem here is that people are scared of Islam because it is so fanatic. It is like all the fanatic islamic people moved to Europe. Did you know that the headscarf is baned from all public places in Turkey????? Turkey seems to be less fanatic than the Turks who live in Europe. How can you explain that? A lot of islams in Belgium don't even bother to learn the language or to educate there daughters proparly. Where is the respect for our cultures? Don't you have to respect the culture of the country where you are living and who supports you??

 

[Tamagochi]

I do not support the "let them do whatever they want in order just not to anger them". That's a position of fear and it takes us backwards, not forwards. Islam should be treated equally as any other religion - like Christianity for example.

Muslims are supposed to to live by the laws of the country that they're living in, even if it is a non-Muslim country, unless it forces them to go against their religion.

Europe had suffered a fair deal of problems coming from the tyranny of Catholic church a long time ago. A lot of things that are normal today have been considered an attack on religious faith back then: civil marriage, pre-marital sex, use of contraceptives are among those. There would have been massive violent outbreaks if someone posted caricatures of Jesus 500 years ago - just like in Denmark now. But society has managed to move beyond that and religion had to change and adapt. The same should be applied to Islam as well if it wants to be more openly accepted by western civilization.

My personal opinion is that some concepts of Islam may be outdated in modern society and should be revised - including usage of burkas, jihad, marriage liberty and others. It's not that I disrespect your religion, I just want to see your face when I'm talking to you - is that too much to ask from a rational human being? When it's Christmas time I would like to see some decorations in the city because it's a nice tradition - you can put up your own decorations when your religion calls for it and I would not complain.

And Shai - I do not think it's about the architecture. Southern Europe has a lot of buildings of Arabic origin and they blend in nicely without provoking bans.

In otherwords, racism hiding behind nationalism.

I don't give a shit who comes to "my country", the customs they bring with, or what language they speak.
Don't like the language they speak? Don't speak to them, problem fucking solved.

I guess you could also convict local Indians for racism because they tried to resist the overtake from European immigrants hundreds of years ago.

 

[Kaipaus]

I think that the banning of headscarves would be horrible It would be like forbidding people to wear trousers... or crosses. I can understand that people don't want buildings that in their opinion represent something horrible, illegal even,to be in their town, but banning headscarves means stepping on an area so private that it's just not fair. And it's against human rights, as it is a human right to express one's religious convictions-- also in public.

In general I think that muslims and other immigrants should abide by the same rules as native residents. We have a right to our religion, and they should have a right to theirs, as long as the religion abides by our laws. We have a duty to teach our children our national language at home, and immigrants should also take care that their children learn our language. We can't require that the media don't criticise our ways, and immigrants can't require that the media don't criticise their ways. It's as simple as that: same rules to everyone. In conclusion, a right to express religious convictions is a rule that applies to everyone, not only to native residents.

 

[Shai Gar]

Besides, as fly away said, minarets are a part of culture, not Religion.

Anyway, fuck religion. Religious people are trying to stop aids infested africa from using condoms.

 

[Morgain]

Europe had suffered a fair deal of problems coming from the tyranny of Catholic church a long time ago. A lot of things that are normal today have been considered an attack on religious faith back then: civil marriage, pre-marital sex, use of contraceptives are among those. There would have been massive violent outbreaks if someone posted caricatures of Jesus 500 years ago - just like in Denmark now. But society has managed to move beyond that and religion had to change and adapt. The same should be applied to Islam as well if it wants to be more openly accepted by western civilization.

My personal opinion is that some concepts of Islam may be outdated in modern society and should be revised - including usage of burkas, jihad, marriage liberty and others. It's not that I disrespect your religion, I just want to see your face when I'm talking to you - is that too much to ask from a rational human being?

Well said, that could be exactly the main cause of the fear for Islam in Europe!!!!!!!!

 

[sookie]

Well I am surprised. Then I am not surprised and hope that this is not going to be a precedent in other countries.

I wonder when people will realize that by surpressing rights motivates people to fight back and gives terrorists a new way to recruit people who may have not been recruited in the first place.

It fuels the hate.

I dont get it.

 

[bs98r3kjf]

I feel exactly like this. This whole thing is also a hot topic in Belgium. Belgium is also trying to ban the headscarf from public places

the idea behind this is: "you are free to believe what you want to do, but other people don't need to know. Therefore it is not only a ban to the headscarf but to all religion signs.

The problem here is that people are scared of Islam because it is so fanatic. It is like all the fanatic islamic people moved to Europe. Did you know that the headscarf is baned from all public places in Turkey????? Turkey seems to be less fanatic than the Turks who live in Europe. How can you explain that? A lot of islams in Belgium don't even bother to learn the language or to educate there daughters proparly. Where is the respect for our cultures? Don't you have to respect the culture of the country where you are living and who supports you??

Morgan I see what you're saying, I understand. I am not one to say what Belgium's rules should or shouldn't be because it is not my country, I never plan on going there for any reason as I am grateful with where I live right now. But I will say a few things to help clear up some misconceptions here.

Hijab (headscarf), as described by Islam, is a practice, not a mere symbol. It is a piece of cloth.

Islam itself is not fanatic. Fanasticism is against Islam. Sure there are a handful of Muslim fanatics here and there but why should that be used to label Islam as "fanatic?" Those "Muslims" in Belgium who don't learn the language or educate their daughters clearly have a major issue because education is a big thing in Islam, every single person on earth who claims to be a Muslim should have a drive for education. It is for cultural purposes that they do not want to learn the language, not religious. There is a huge difference. They feel that their identity is being threatened. With religion, your identity is not threatened by education, in fact, Muslims are commanded by God in the Quran to strive for education and you become a better Muslim the more you are educated.

I do see something similar to what you're talking about here all the time when from people of all cultures immigrating to the US as well. They don't educate themselves on language/culture because they're afraid of losing their culture and identity. It seldom has to do with religion. Mind you, I'm speaking from experience of someone who has grown up in one of the most culturally diverse cities in the world with high levels of immigration.

I hope you understand the differences between the cultures of some people and Islam.

 

[sookie]

Morgan I see what you're saying, I understand. I am not one to say what Belgium's rules should or shouldn't be because it is not my country, I never plan on going there for any reason as I am grateful with where I live right now. But I will say a few things to help clear up some misconceptions here.

Hijab (headscarf), as described by Islam, is a practice, not a mere symbol. It is a piece of cloth.

Islam itself is not fanatic. Fanasticism is against Islam. Sure there are a handful of Muslim fanatics here and there but why should that be used to label Islam as "fanatic?" Those "Muslims" in Belgium who don't learn the language or educate their daughters clearly have a major issue because education is a big thing in Islam, every single person on earth who claims to be a Muslim should have a drive for education. It is for cultural purposes that they do not want to learn the language, not religious. There is a huge difference. They feel that their identity is being threatened. With religion, your identity is not threatened by education, in fact, Muslims are commanded by God in the Quran to strive for education and you become a better Muslim the more you are educated.

I do see something similar to what you're talking about here all the time when from people of all cultures immigrating to the US as well. They don't educate themselves on language/culture because they're afraid of losing their culture and identity. It seldom has to do with religion. Mind you, I'm speaking from experience of someone who has grown up in one of the most culturally diverse cities in the world with high levels of immigration.

I hope you understand the differences between the cultures of some people and Islam.

I see this all of the time in education. People will make unhelpful comments like : They should bother to learn the language.

I think this is offensive and actually arrogant for exactly the reason why you are saying. Additionally, there are families who have to work more than 1 job in order to meet the basic needs for their family to survive. I am tired when I work 1 job. I cant imagine taking care of a family and taking an English class and working 2 jobs.

I agree that Islam is a peaceful religion. I wish that people would realize that there are fanatics in all religions.

 

[bs98r3kjf]

I see this all of the time in education. People will make unhelpful comments like : They should bother to learn the language.

I think this is offensive and actually arrogant for exactly the reason why you are saying. Additionally, there are families who have to work more than 1 job in order to meet the basic needs for their family to survive. I am tired when I work 1 job. I cant imagine taking care of a family and taking an English class and working 2 jobs.

I agree that Islam is a peaceful religion. I wish that people would realize that there are fanatics in all religions.

I personally don't believe in pushing people to learn the language but I do see it as a great benefit. In schools its definitely necessary but that does not mean not allowing them to learn their native languages as well.

 

[sookie]

Flyaway I was not even thinking that!!
I believed so much in what you said that I wanted to add support

 

[bs98r3kjf]

I do not support the "let them do whatever they want in order just not to anger them". That's a position of fear and it takes us backwards, not forwards. Islam should be treated equally as any other religion - like Christianity for example.



Europe had suffered a fair deal of problems coming from the tyranny of Catholic church a long time ago. A lot of things that are normal today have been considered an attack on religious faith back then: civil marriage, pre-marital sex, use of contraceptives are among those. There would have been massive violent outbreaks if someone posted caricatures of Jesus 500 years ago - just like in Denmark now. But society has managed to move beyond that and religion had to change and adapt. The same should be applied to Islam as well if it wants to be more openly accepted by western civilization.

My personal opinion is that some concepts of Islam may be outdated in modern society and should be revised - including usage of burkas, jihad, marriage liberty and others. It's not that I disrespect your religion, I just want to see your face when I'm talking to you - is that too much to ask from a rational human being? When it's Christmas time I would like to see some decorations in the city because it's a nice tradition - you can put up your own decorations when your religion calls for it and I would not complain.

You may feel that some things are outdated, to each his own. But like you said, anyone can put up their decorations for their holidays and yet they cannot practice their religion? What's the difference between that anyways? Clearly, decorations are more of a symbol and less of a practice and hijab is more of a practice and less of a symbol.

Anyways, I do not know what Lithuania or the country you live in is like and they're free to create their own laws there. I do not live there so it is not an issue for me personally. Do you predict that soon all practices of religion will be wiped out of Lithuania?

 

[bs98r3kjf]

Flyaway I was not even thinking that!!
I believed so much in what you said that I wanted to add support

Sorry I misunderstood what you said, I haven't had my tea yet lol. And thank you! I'm glad you understood what I was getting at.

 

[DefectiveCreative]

My personal opinion is that some concepts of Islam may be outdated in modern society and should be revised - including usage of burkas, jihad, marriage liberty and others.

From your post it seems that you're under the impression (like a lot of people in the West) that the term "Jihad" means "Holy War", particularly against the "infidels" of the West. But it's actually a lot more complex than that:

http://middleeast.about.com/od/religionsectarianism/g/me080122a.htm

The concept of Jihad doesn't need revising, it just needs to stop being misused and misunderstood.

 

[bs98r3kjf]

From your post it seems that you're under the impression (like a lot of people in the West) that the term "Jihad" means "Holy War", particularly against the "infidels" of the West. But it's actually a lot more complex than that:

http://middleeast.about.com/od/religionsectarianism/g/me080122a.htm

The concept of Jihad doesn't need revising, it just needs to stop being misused and misunderstood.

Bingo!

 

[muir]

I think the Swiss vote reflects the uncertainty in Europe over the multiculturalism experiment.

The freeing of the markets has enabled the rich to find cheaper labour either by moving their businesses to poorer countries or by bringing people from poorer countries into western countries to do the work for less. This mass immigration needed multiculturalism to work, which has its complications.

Competition over jobs and housing is up, suspicion and anger is up, profit for the rich is up, cultural disharmony is up etc.

 

[Morgain]

Morgan I see what you're saying, I understand. I am not one to say what Belgium's rules should or shouldn't be because it is not my country, I never plan on going there for any reason as I am grateful with where I live right now. But I will say a few things to help clear up some misconceptions here.

Hijab (headscarf), as described by Islam, is a practice, not a mere symbol. It is a piece of cloth.

Islam itself is not fanatic. Fanasticism is against Islam. Sure there are a handful of Muslim fanatics here and there but why should that be used to label Islam as "fanatic?" Those "Muslims" in Belgium who don't learn the language or educate their daughters clearly have a major issue because education is a big thing in Islam, every single person on earth who claims to be a Muslim should have a drive for education. It is for cultural purposes that they do not want to learn the language, not religious. There is a huge difference. They feel that their identity is being threatened. With religion, your identity is not threatened by education, in fact, Muslims are commanded by God in the Quran to strive for education and you become a better Muslim the more you are educated.

I do see something similar to what you're talking about here all the time when from people of all cultures immigrating to the US as well. They don't educate themselves on language/culture because they're afraid of losing their culture and identity. It seldom has to do with religion. Mind you, I'm speaking from experience of someone who has grown up in one of the most culturally diverse cities in the world with high levels of immigration.

I hope you understand the differences between the cultures of some people and Islam.

I perfectly understand. And I have nothing against Islam as a religion. I was in Jordan in the dessert and had one of the most amazing conversations ever with a moslim bedouin about the deepest meaning of life. We perfectly understood eachother and our differences in religion was not an issue at all.

You are right, the problem is that these people are affraid to lose there identity. But they are trying to keep it with the wrong tools and by this the intollerance increases. We are tollerant people, we don't care about religion very much. In my company people of countries from all over the world work together and there are no issues here. The jews can live in my country without problems, even the more fanatic. But there are no problems with them, with suppressed girls and boys living in the streats thinking they can do whatever they want to do and when punnished cry and say they are discriminated...

 

[bs98r3kjf]

I perfectly understand. And I have nothing against Islam as a religion. I was in Jordan in the dessert and had one of the most amazing conversations ever with a moslim bedouin about the deepest meaning of life. We perfectly understood eachother and our differences in religion was not an issue at all.

You are right, the problem is that these people are affraid to lose there identity. But they are trying to keep it with the wrong tools and by this the intollerance increases. We are tollerant people, we don't care about religion very much. In my company people of countries from all over the world work together and there are no issues here. The jews can live in my country without problems, even the more fanatic. But there are no problems with them, with suppressed girls and boys living in the streats thinking they can do whatever they want to do and when punnished cry and say they are discriminated...

I understand what you are saying about people using wrong tools and what not. Ideally, there should to be a better solution than banning religious practices such as wearing hijab and such. I just wish that people (both inside and outside the religion) would see that all religions pretty much preach tolerance and peace. I think that is the main problem, that they don't understand this.