[PUG] Osama Bin Laden is dead Part II

A lot of people have been saying that they do not think he is dead and that the U.S. government is holding him somewhere torturing him for information before they actually kill him.

As for celebrating death- I think it is stupid to celebrate death. I can't think of anything more crude than to have a drinking party because a guy on the other side of the world had a bullet put in his head.
 
Res said:
Not much for wondering why it was released, etc. My point was, I can understand the sentiment many people are expressing.

Yes, I understood that you were talking just for understanding the sentiment many people are expressing. I just thought a little bit more on that and I wondered "why now". This effect (comfort) could have been produced years later (or in one case years earlier). But one friend told me there are coming election in the US. I don't know if that is true or important. Sorry for changing topic again, I understand the points made from both of us - I am also wondering if I am a distorted INFJ because I can not focus on feeling analysis when I am hearing the news.

[MENTION=3545]bickelz[/MENTION] yes, you got the point, I am totally happy with that. Just a little bit further:try to think as the world's number one terrorist. Would you ever get married? If you would get married would you care about your wife? Would you hide with her? If you answered yes to one of these questions you are not made for being a terrorist. I hope you are not :)
 
Why were you at the pentagon on 9-11?

'rot in hell' is hate speak

if you don't intend to communicate hate, don't make statements that promote it

i understand how it would feel great assuming that justice has been served...
but i don't think it is so simple as we have been led to believe

emotional manipulation keeps everything superficial
masses are moved by hate/fear and security/justice

seems to me that 'rot in hell' is a statement we make as the result of a gross miscalculation

i don't feel it is healthy to promote such a mentality, spirit, attitude,


I have never seen more intolerant posts from someone attempting to promote peace. In my opinion, take your own advice.

He didn't say rot in hell. Again, believing someone is in hell is a personal or religious belief, which you have no right to condemn as 'hate speak.' It is not hatred. You have a different opinion of justice, you need to get past it.
 
of course and I didn't mean my comment sarcastically. I have no grudge against him as a person, he's the product of a certain genetic construct and cultural/political environment which led him to life of unforgivable crime.

but now he's no longer, which is best for everyone.

What do you mean by this?
 
Administration Backs Off Tale Of Osama Bin Laden Using Wife As Human Shield

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsme...sama_bin_laden_using_wife_as_human_shield.php


It was a fitting end for the America's most wanted man. As President Barack Obama's Deputy National Security Adviser John Brennan told it, a cowardly Osama bin Laden used his own wife as a human shield in his final moments. Except that apparently wasn't what happened at all.


Hours later, other administration officials were clarifying Brennan's account. Turns out the woman that was killed on the compound wasn't bin Laden's wife. Bin Laden may have not even been using a human shield. And he might not have even been holding a gun.


The narrative first unfolded in a televised briefing at the White House.
"Thinking about that from a visual perspective, here is bin Laden, who has been calling for these attacks, living in this million dollar-plus compound, living in an area that is far removed from the front, hiding behind women who were put in front of him as a shield," Brennan said. "I think it really just speaks to just how false his narrative has been over the years."


Pressed on the issue, Brennan said that it was his understanding that the woman killed was bin Laden's wife and that "she was positioned in a way that indicated that she was being used as a shield."
It's possible it may have been a mix-up of two separate incidents during the assault on the compound. As a senior administration official said at a Pentagon briefing Monday: "One woman, who was used as a human shield by one of the four military-age males on the compound, was killed; he was firing behind her. Two women, including one with Osama bin Laden, were wounded. And the rest were not injured at all."


But as Politico's Josh Gerstein reports, there's still debate over whether the woman who was killed was being used as a human shield at all.
Another official familiar with the operation said it did not appear that any woman was used as a human shield, but that the woman killed and the one injured were hurt in the crossfire. The official said he believed Brennan had mixed up the episode involving bin Laden's wife with another encounter elsewhere in the compound. "Two women were shot here. It sounds like their fates were mixed up," said the U.S. official. "This is hours old and the full facts are still being ascertained as those involved are debriefed."
More details emerged at an off-camera briefing for television reporters Monday night, where a senior White House official said bin Laden was not armed when he was killed.
 
Why were you at the pentagon on 9-11?

Let's just put it this way. It was "work related."

'rot in hell' is hate speak

Not what I wrote. As I understand it, the temperature in hell promotes burning, not rotting.

I think you, and many others, have no appreciation of the extreme freedom you have to think your thoughts, feel your feelings, and speak your mind, particularly when you don't seem to understand the motivations and sacrifices of those who defend you and protect your freedoms. You drive around in your cars powered by Middle Eastern oil, yet I hear sympathy for the poor middle class thugs who flew into the World Trade Center because they were somehow offended by "imperialistic" Western culture. You have every right to think what you want about "poor" Osama Bin Laden and his minions. You also have every right to live in the self-righteous, oh so self-satisfied bubble world of your own choosing. But, all the lovely, peaceful talk about teaching bullies not to bully doesn't help the kid who is currently being pummeled for lack of a little boxing instruction. All the talk about "peace and love" doesn't do a thing for those who jumped 100 stories to their deaths from the World Trade Center or were incinerated in the inferno at the Pentagon. Likewise, if you think you can just talk to terrorists so that they would learn how to love others and see the errors of their ways, dream on. The best way to deal with the scourge of terrorism is to kill terrorists and this is done most efficiently with a neutral mien.

The Navy SEALS who killed Osama Bin Laden represent the best of America. Americans are lucky and should be proud to have such incredible people as countrymen.
 
I think you, and many others, have no appreciation of the extreme freedom you have to think your thoughts, feel your feelings, and speak your mind, particularly when you don't seem to understand the motivations and sacrifices of those who defend you and protect your freedoms. You drive around in your cars powered by Middle Eastern oil, yet I hear sympathy for the poor middle class thugs who flew into the World Trade Center because they were somehow offended by "imperialistic" Western culture. You have every right to think what you want about "poor" Osama Bin Laden and his minions. You also have every right to live in the self-righteous, oh so self-satisfied bubble world of your own choosing. But, all the lovely, peaceful talk about teaching bullies not to bully doesn't help the kid who is currently being pummeled for lack of a little boxing instruction. All the talk about "peace and love" doesn't do a thing for those who jumped 100 stories to their deaths from the World Trade Center or were incinerated in the inferno at the Pentagon. Likewise, if you think you can just talk to terrorists so that they would learn how to love others and see the errors of their ways, dream on. The best way to deal with the scourge of terrorism is to kill terrorists and this is done most efficiently with a neutral mien.

The Navy SEALS who killed Osama Bin Laden represent the best of America. Americans are lucky and should be proud to have such incredible people as countrymen.

:amen:
 
So, I just got word from my BBC News app on my phone that the White House released that Bin Laden was unarmed when they shot him. When will these motherfuckers get their story straight. First he's holding his wife hostage, now the bastard didn't have a weapon? Unless it was an accident to shoot him, which I doubt, I'm really starting to question this shit.

How the hell would get a clear shot at an unarmed man unless you use a sniper? But they didn't snipe him, they sent SEALS into the compound to confirm the kill up close by doing it up close. So I'm supposed to take all this?

1. We invaded the compound.
2. They took hostages.
3. Bin Laden took up arms (and I'm assuming a hostage/ body shield).
4. We then shot him when he was unarmed.

Assuming the third even happened, either it was an accident to shoot Bin Laden or they killed the fucker when everyone else was gone. Come on, don't tell me we stormed in, people took up arms and hostages and just let us shoot Osama.
 
To Norton;

I must admit Norton, I don't really like what you are saying, but I can't help but find myself agreeing, with most of it at least! You make a very good point about our lack of appreciation of our own freedom, and about how our comfortable lives are run on the bloodshed in the middle east. However, this may be because I am a naive seventeen-year-old who has led an ideal life (at least so far), but I honestly believe that the majority of insurgeons in Iraq aren't out for blood, they are fighting for the freedom of their already impoverished families, they are the underdogs who are getting kicked while they are down by the 'dominant countries' (USA, UK ect.) If we could talk to these people, then we can spread a mutual understanding between 'us' and 'them', I mean, people need to have a reason to hate each other, and this reasoning largely comes from a lack of understanding. Talking to these people, will open our eyes, allowing people to realise the wrong-doings on both sides and hopefully correcting them. Simply killing those who kill makes us killers too.

Also, while I find your patriotism regarding your comments on the Navy SEALS to be commendable, I can't say that I agree that someone who is capable of killing is the best of a group of people.
 
Simply killing those who kill makes us killers too.

Correct, we don't have to retaliate. If we didn't retaliate and just said fuck off to the taliban/Al-Qaeda while actually being nice to the middle east, this shit would be gone by now.

Also, while I find your patriotism regarding your comments on the Navy SEALS to be commendable, I can't say that I agree that someone who is capable of killing is the best of a group of people.

I will support the individual soldiers but I really don't like the military.
 
the way you display your hate is distasteful

why do you promote this attitude?

I think its obvious why he promotes it.


Me and my *istj* boss were discussing this. And its like.... yeah.
 
Correct, we don't have to retaliate. If we didn't retaliate and just said fuck off to the taliban/Al-Qaeda while actually being nice to the middle east, this shit would be gone by now.
I will support the individual soldiers but I really don't like the military.

Do you know what "being nice to the middle east" entails? Is this possible or even desirable in the context of Realpolitik?

Naivet
 
I've been asked so many times what I think about this, whether I think it's right or wrong, over the past few days. I've thought about it and thought about it and wasn't reaching any sort of climax, any moment where I thought 'ah-hah, that's my opinion on it', it's really a tough issue.

I don't have any arguments about the war, about Osama Bin Laden himself, but I do have some comments about the way that American Society has been taking his death which have put me to pause.

I have witnessed so many people cheering on his death and others who, even before he was dead, described in explicit terms how they would mutilate his body if they ever saw him or if they caught him hoped he was publicly hung. I am sure many of you have heard these comments yourselves, and may have even read them here or on other forums...some of you may have made these comments.

Why I find comments like these so disturbing is that by saying those things and having such a strong reaction of hatred and the desire to inflict pain on another person, it proves the power Osama Bin Laden had. I understand that there have been crimes he and/or the terrorist group he was a part of did that result in the death of many American and non-American lives. It's a deep seated pain that will never go away of 9/11 and various other bombings that these extremest groups have been responsible for all across the country.

What a dictator and cult leader does is cultivate fear in people in order to get them in act in extreme in bizarre ways. Fear is a powerful motivator, and if you can convince people that their lives are at risk and lead them to be full of enough fright they will do things they wouldn't ordinarily do. Suicide bombers and other members of these terrorist groups are not necessary 'bad' people, but many who are integrated into these systems are done so under the brainwashing of fear, fear of Allah, fear of the cult leaders and other members of the cult turning on them....this is how these groups work. They like to put on public showings and make movies and posters and announce what they are going to do or their intentions to breed fear in people- fear is infectious, and it can lead to really terrible things happening.

The people who have expressed pleasure in the death of Osama Bin Laden- and I clarify, pleasure is different from perhaps a sort of relief from a possible threat- are feeling pleasure because they were operating in such a state of fear that it gripped them and has bred hate into them as a result. Fear is supposed to breed hate, that's the natural state of getting people afraid--to make them develop this grandiose feeling that they are 'better' than a specific group of people so that they can lash out that that group, therefore dehumanizing them and feeling no shame or guilt.

Are we dehumanizing Osama Bin Laden and the terrorist rings he belonged to? Admitting that he is a human being and treating him with the same basic rights that our constitution endows us with does not mean we agree with what he has done, or may have planned in the future. It doesn't mean we idolize him, it doesn't mean he is allowed to go 'off the hook' for the crimes he committed. What it does mean, is level headed thinking. If you think about World War II and the dictatorships that were involved during that time, on both sides the best way to get people to want to be involved in the war and have strong opinions about it was propaganda.

This propaganda was instilled to create fear in the citizens- and for communities and nazi reigning countries, this fear did breed into hate for certain types of people, led to dehumanizing these people, led to people doing and feeling justified in doing terrible things like baking people in ovens to see how long it would take until they died. They were only able to do this by dehumanizing them and thinking themselves superior because humans are not naturally inclined to inflicting excessive pain and suffering on others- we are an empathetic species, as is proven by a thread that was earlier on these forums about how often we are embarrassed when other people embarrass themselves in public.

My suggestion is not that we treat Osama Bin Laden like a savior, in fact, it is not to contradict what has been done to him, nor is it to suggest that it shouldn't have been done/ we were wrong. What I am trying to say is...though emotions can quip us and get in the way of what our morals and values are, it's important to realise that if you are harboring deep seated hatred and desires for other people to suffer, it's quite possibly out of hatred that was bred from fear, which is exactly the tactic terrorist groups use because they want you to be angry and afraid. Terrorism is just that, stemming from the word it relates from 'terror'. Terrorists want the general population to become terrified because it is easier to morph their minds into becoming violent and wanting to harm other people, because they are afraid, and instinctively humans want to live so our fight or flight instincts come into play. Don't let yourself become a person of instincts- be a man/woman of moral insights and logic, while feeling your feelings but acknowledging that succumbing to fear and letting it turn into irrational rage/desire to harm others is the stuff terrorism is made of.
 
How does that work?

Well, I think the military should be de-funded because we spend way to much on it. I also think that it does some very horrible things and I don't really like our military but I will not extend the dislike of the organization to the people, within reason.

There is another example of this on campus at my school. Chick Fil A has been spending money on an anti-gay organization called Family Research Center (or something like that) so there is a petition to get rid of it. I don't support the organization Chick Fil A because of this. I actually am a bit repulsed by the idea of eating their food again but I would never take that out against an employee. I would against the CEO but not some high school kid working to pay for a pair of Jordans.
 
Well, I think the military should be de-funded because we spend way to much on it. I also think that it does some very horrible things and I don't really like our military but I will not extend the dislike of the organization to the people, within reason.

There is another example of this on campus at my school. Chick Fil A has been spending money on an anti-gay organization called Family Research Center (or something like that) so there is a petition to get rid of it. I don't support the organization Chick Fil A because of this. I actually am a bit repulsed by the idea of eating their food again but I would never take that out against an employee. I would against the CEO but not some high school kid working to pay for a pair of Jordans.

So basically you like Sgt's and below and dislike generals, and want to pay them all less. Am I close?
 
Well, I think the military should be de-funded because we spend way to much on it. I also think that it does some very horrible things and I don't really like our military but I will not extend the dislike of the organization to the people, within reason.

I respect the military more than any other profession in this country.

The military protects your freedom to do what you want, say what you will, be who you are, and actualize your life in a free society. It stands between Americans' often unappreciated freedoms and the dangerous, rigid, authoritarian, freedom hating, corrupt societies you find in Venezuela, Belarus, North Korea, Syria, Burma (the name, Myanmar, is illegitimate) and the global islamo-fascist caliphate envisioned by Bin Laden and his surviving minions.

Aren't you lucky we have a strong military? If you don't think so, I guess you don't appreciate your good fortune. But, among the protected freedoms too often demonstrated in our society is self-righteous ignorance and entitlement. There should be a draft.
 
As harsh as it sounds, I gotta agree with [MENTION=1678]Norton[/MENTION]; Being Native American, I understand the realities of what happens when you don't fight the good fight. Honor to all Warriors. Those individuals who take a stand to protect others while risking their own lives. Of course, each side sees their Warriors and right and just or perhaps Martyrs depending on how you look at things. There aren't any easy answers and hopefully you don't need to get hurt to understand that the world is a dangerous place. Hopefully you understand that other nation's hatred is real and in some ways understandable given the historical context of the region in question. Educate yourself on the facts of the middle east and garner a basic understanding of the various positions and then try and make sweeping statements about right and wrong on either side. As for defunding the military--I would say that there is some question that our standing army isn't sufficient to begin with. Again, government spending is a third of our economy. Halting the flow of monies into our economy is a juvenille thought which would have serious consequences probably resulting in a serious collapse of infrastructure in many areas.
 
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