Perceptions of "unattractive" people

[aeon]

I am sorry but this is one of those subjects that unless you've dealt with it, you really shouldn't talk about it.

There’s no need to apologize for speaking your mind, and in any case, I absolutely agree with you. And so I talked about it because I’ve dealt with it. I’ve been overweight, and I have been obese. I’ve was told that I was ruining my looks, that I would look so much better if I was thin, that people would like me more, that I would make more money, that I would be more of a man if I wasn’t fat.

But you know what? I wanted to be fat...because when you are fat, you become a kind of invisible...and for sure, people avoid you, they don’t want anything to do with you. And that’s exactly what I wanted. Because after having been raped for the second time, I could protect myself by making myself and my body undesirable, unwanted, disgusting even. Don’t look at me, don’t talk to me, and definitely don’t fucking touch me. And it worked!

People often reduce this issue to health....

And I certainly did in my post because that was purposefully the context I was addressing. It doesn’t mean that I was/am not aware of the long list of other considerations.

...but that's only one part of the story. The medical community has made it a thing to target people who are not the standard weight and make them feel self-conscious and bad about it, even when it is not the main issue or cause of a visit. I have been treated rudely like I was nothing because I was overweight. Doubly, if you are a woman of color. They are often insensitive, patronizing, or overly simplistic in their diagnoses because they want to blame having weight on for everything, even if it is not the issue. There are so many cases of women finally sharing their stories of medical issues being overlooked or concerns being dismissed because the doctor rushed to judge the issue as weight-related.

Yes, understood and agreed. Part of me being a medical nerd is not just the hard science, but the psychological and sociological aspects of the doctor-patient relationship. Some of my best-received posts on Reddit have been about patient advocacy, disparities of outcome when comparing and contrasting sex, gender, and race, with a special emphasis on rates of infant and maternal mortality in the United States for women of color, cross-referenced with other nations. And women are routinely ignored and not listened to, regardless of their weight, or so say the women I interviewed for the U of MN, but inasmuch as I’m not one, I wouldn’t really know anything about that, would I?

Another thing is, my weight is mine and mine alone to discuss. If I would like advice on it, I will ask. Otherwise, I shouldn't be subject to someone's opinion or judgment about it unless they are directly affected by it, they are directly involved with me, and care about me the person. I know I have a weight issue. I don't need someone to tell me that. The focus should be health, not my weight alone. I can be healthy and not be small. That's a fact.

Agreed, and that’s why I was clear about the context in my post. It was between doctor and patient, because a doctor is the only person that would be appropriate to make comment, and those comments were about health. I certainly wasn’t giving anyone advice.

I remember having family members as a child call attention to weight as the first thing they notice and commenting on it publicly in front of others to shame. Honestly, someone's weight is no one's business, unless you are affected by being in this person's life and are involved with them in some way.

As in, for example, their doctor addressing their health. Which is what I posted about.

I’m a bit confused by your reply, because I’m not sure if you agreed or disagreed with my post. You seemed to take issue with it, but you didn’t actually address the idea of it, so that left me wondering.

Thanks,
Ian

 

[John K]

This is really a thread for the ladies, but I'll just ramble around a few thoughts in case they are of value to anyone.

Speaking for myself, I've never been comfortable with very physically attractive women. I was pretty shy as a young adult, and nor was I either interested in or capable of playing the competive social games for alpha male positions. This is perhaps as biased in its own way as only seeing the most attractive people, but quite honestly it's the way that I was wired, and my social insecurity could never have let be be otherwise in those days.

What has always attracted me is personality - it doesn't matter what someone looks like if they have a personality that fits with my own. To find someone like that is a pearl beyond price, because there are so few. A very remarkable thing too is that as I get to know someone like that their apperance becomes more and more dear to me regardless of what they are like physically. In contrast, someone who is very attractive physically, but has a personality incompatible with my own is a great big turn off for me.

I have always been on the fringe of any social group I have been involved with, and I know what it's like there. At junior school I was overweight and unpopular and young kids can be very cruel and quite outspoken in these circumstances - it wasn't just the name calling but always being the one left out (I was always the one without a partner when a teacher said right everyone find somebody to pair up with). It's awful, and my heart goes out to women who face this sort of thing right through adult life.

What I have found though is that often in my adult life the women who are being left behind by the socially competitive men and women in a group are the ones with the deepest and most attractive and interesting personality in terms of what I like. I met my wife that way, long, long ago.

I think there are probably other men like me out there, but we can't be easily found amongst the alpha males chasing the alpha females.

Edit: I'll not comment on how women judge each other socially based on physical attactiveness, though this is at least as big a part of the issue as the male perspective - but that's not something I have an insider feel for.

 

[Asa]

This is really a thread for the ladies, but I'll just ramble around a few thoughts in case they are of value to anyone.

Anyone can experience inclusion or rejection based on their looks.

What has always attracted me is personality - it doesn't matter what someone looks like if they have a personality that fits with my own. To find someone like that is a pearl beyond price, because there are so few. A very remarkable thing too is that as I get to know someone like that their apperance becomes more and more dear to me regardless of what they are like physically. In contrast, someone who is very attractive physically, but has a personality incompatible with my own is a great big turn off for me.

I agree. Personality matters. I don't care what a man looks like as long as he has good hygiene and our personalities mesh.

Choosing a partner based on looks is not wise. While individual preferences exist outside of trend, beauty standards change every decade. Currently, heavy make-up and a body that, for most, is attainable only through expensive, painful, and dangerous surgery (BBL) is the standard. It's a successful business model and beauty standards often align with wealth.
Bodies also change throughout a person's life. Changing our eating habits, different exercise routines, or taking different medications (for example, birth control) can change our bodies and even change our hormone levels (which aid in attraction.)

If you're not attracting people, or if you're attracting unwanted attention, change your behavior. If you want more attention, try dressing and grooming in a way your target audience will notice and act warmer, friendlier, funny, and accepting. Be respectful, be kind. (A lot of men, especially nerdy men, are jerks without realizing it.) If you are receiving unwanted attention you may be too flirty or provocative, or too accepting and warm, giving people the impression they have a chance with you. I changed my behavior. I used to act much more inviting, accidentally, because I was friendly, accepting, and openly kind with everyone. I received so much unwanted attention, even from people who knew I was married. I turned it off. I'm less approachable now and men leave me alone.

 

[David54]

Never been a pretty person..don't care, and never have..
Don't care about appearance in others, just attitude and behavior..
Nobody cares that is worth your time .

 

[John K]

Choosing a partner based on looks is not wise.

Very definitely. As well as the trap of chasing someone incompatible, good looks usually don't last anything like as long as people tend to.

If you're not attracting people, or if you're attracting unwanted attention, change your behavior. If you want more attention, try dressing and grooming in a way your target audience will notice and act warmer, friendlier, funny, and accepting. Be respectful, be kind. (A lot of men, especially nerdy men, are jerks without realizing it.) If you are receiving unwanted attention you may be too flirty or provocative, or too accepting and warm, giving people the impression they have a chance with you. I changed my behavior. I used to act much more inviting, accidentally, because I was friendly, accepting, and openly kind with everyone. I received so much unwanted attention, even from people who knew I was married. I turned it off. I'm less approachable now and men leave me alone.

I very much agree. This is where where self-knowledge may be so important. The problems can come from behaviours as well as looks, and changing behaviour may make a significant difference. Over the years, I had to do a number of personal development courses in the company I worked for. On one of these it was pointed out to me that I tended to avoid making eye contact and giving positive body signals to folks when I came across them - not just brand new people, but people I was acquainted with (I don't do this with people I'm already comfortable with of course). It was noticeable on the course that if I was sitting alone in a room, and people started coming in, they'd start talking to each other but ignoring me. I hadn't realised I was giving out leave me alone, mixed with social inferiority signals, but that is what was happening. It sounds silly really because it's obvious with hindsight, but once it was pointed out then if I made the effort to look at people and smile, or say something, things changed.

This doesn't account for everything because of course people do play social ascendancy games, or they can simply be insensitive - but being aware of this sort of thing means we can use it to our advantage to help load the dice more in our favour. And like you say, it can be used to avoid unwanted attention as well as encouraging inclusion once you start taking conscious control of it.

 

[mintoots]

To a certain extent though, I think it remains factual that there's a marketing component to physical looks otherwise media like Tiktok and similar things would not have blown up this huge. Maybe the attraction frameworks are being inputted into a general audience or maybe there has always been something primal within our psyche that the capitalist media is trying to exhaust. Whether or not the chicken came before the egg, it still remains a chicken in essence. Surely aesthetics has reasons for being. Thankfully, the world isn't unidimensional either so there's surely a niche for each and every one. At the core, it's most important that we know how to carry ourselves according to our true values so as not to lose ourselves throughout the noise. Some days will suck of course, and for those, I always say there's ice cream.

 

[aeon]

If you're not attracting people, or if you're attracting unwanted attention, change your behavior. If you want more attention, try dressing and grooming in a way your target audience will notice and act warmer, friendlier, funny, and accepting. Be respectful, be kind.

Say it again for the people in the back. Spot on. Some won’t want to hear it, but it’s this...exactly this.

Two things I really like about what you said here...First, if you don’t like the situation, you change what you actually have control over...yourself. Second, if you want something, take responsibility for your want, and demonstrate you have by taking action, thereby reinforcing the first part.

It’s often said by lonesome people in posts online that no attention is given to them, but in describing their situation it becomes clear they are choosing to be passive by waiting for something to happen, sometimes for years. Of course, that could be due to an issue or issues they aren’t being forthright about, perhaps even to themself. The other noticeable thing is the language used. What I mean by this this is the tone and choice of words often suggest the poster’s state of mind. Many times there are shadings of negativity, whether it be pessimism, engaging in magical thinking to explain their situation, cynicism, traces of bitterness, resentment, or a flat dejection, which communicates a kind of resignation or defeat.

Feelings like those are certainly valid, but I sometimes get the sense there’s a significant lack of insight that would help recognize how expressing negative energy like that will spoil your efforts in other ares because people are actively turned off by that kind of mindset, especially the idea of it in a partner.

Which isn’t to say be inauthentic...it’s more a question of changing the way one thinks, and changing one’s outlook. You know, like when you said “act warmer, friendlier, funny, and accepting. Be respectful, be kind.”

The #1 factor in a person appearing attractive to other people, or not, is that person’s attitude, full stop.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Gaze]

There’s no need to apologize for speaking your mind, and in any case, I absolutely agree with you. And so I talked about it because I’ve dealt with it. I’ve been overweight, and I have been obese. I’ve was told that I was ruining my looks, that I would look so much better if I was thin, that people would like me more, that I would make more money, that I would be more of a man if I wasn’t fat.

But you know what? I wanted to be fat...because when you are fat, you become a kind of invisible...and for sure, people avoid you, they don’t want anything to do with you. And that’s exactly what I wanted. Because after having been raped for the second time, I could protect myself by making myself and my body undesirable, unwanted, disgusting even. Don’t look at me, don’t talk to me, and definitely don’t fucking touch me. And it worked!



And I certainly did in my post because that was purposefully the context I was addressing. It doesn’t mean that I was/am not aware of the long list of other considerations.



Yes, understood and agreed. Part of me being a medical nerd is not just the hard science, but the psychological and sociological aspects of the doctor-patient relationship. Some of my best-received posts on Reddit have been about patient advocacy, disparities of outcome when comparing and contrasting sex, gender, and race, with a special emphasis on rates of infant and maternal mortality in the United States for women of color, cross-referenced with other nations. And women are routinely ignored and not listened to, regardless of their weight, or so say the women I interviewed for the U of MN, but inasmuch as I’m not one, I wouldn’t really know anything about that, would I?



Agreed, and that’s why I was clear about the context in my post. It was between doctor and patient, because a doctor is the only person that would be appropriate to make comment, and those comments were about health. I certainly wasn’t giving anyone advice.



As in, for example, their doctor addressing their health. Which is what I posted about.

I’m a bit confused by your reply, because I’m not sure if you agreed or disagreed with my post. You seemed to take issue with it, but you didn’t actually address the idea of it, so that left me wondering.

Thanks,
Ian

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion. I shouldn't have said that you shouldn't speak about this since you clearly have some experience. We don't need to have the same opinion. And that's ok.

 

[aeon]

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion. I shouldn't have said that you shouldn't speak about this since you clearly have some experience. We don't need to have the same opinion. And that's ok.

I’m still confused. What do we have a difference of opinion on?

And no problem with saying I shouldn’t speak. Assumptions are made about people’s experience, or lack thereof, all the time. Sometimes that comes with a bit of gatekeeping, or a warning shot. Both online and in real life. I’m nearly numb to it now.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Asa]

I agree with you @aeon. There will always be people who won't find us attractive, but by changing our behavior to be more positive and welcoming, we attract those who do. If nobody notices, find new activities where the men/women your crowd attracts, or you personally attract, will be more diverse in character.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The main thing is to treat people you don't find attractive with kindness and respect, which is the ultimate takeaway from this article and @Gaze's post. It's frustrating that so many people don't treat others with either kindness or respect. It's frustrating when people attach our worth to our level of attractiveness, especially when everyone defines attractiveness differently. We aren't worth less when someone views us as less attractive.

 

[Wyote]

We're mostly all wired to be attracted to archetypes and symmetry, but there's far more complexity built into relationship building, coupled with types of attraction that supersede those innate baser instincts.

You have to learn to market yourself in some capacity, and it'll give you an edge if you're more marketable, but if what you're selling isn't built solidly and toward the right market, your buyer is gonna be asking for a refund pretty quick

 

[Linda Loo]

I was very thin in highschool. I wore something tight one day and I got a lot of male attention. I started dressing in my stepfather's baggy men's clothing after that. I became mostly invisible and the boys who liked me were actually attracted to my personality, which I prefer.

There were periods in my life where I can relate with what aeon said about gaining weight to be invisible to men so they would leave me alone. It works.

During quarantine I gained enough weight to be considered obese. I felt terrible and I wanted to be mentally and physically healthy. I started working out, being mindful of my food consumption and taking care of my appearance. My hair had grown out and I started to embrace my femininity.

Unfortunately, I was living with my abuser at the time and the changes I made put me back on his radar. I realized how beneficial being obese had been in not garnering male attention.

I didn't get much attention on a dating site when I was obese. I am still a bit overweight, in my estimation, but I get a lot of attention. It is overwhelming to me and while I do like some attention, admittedly, and I have come to like being attractive, I want to be valued as a whole person. I do not prefer to be stared at, it is awkward and creepy.

I remember being with a thin, beautiful friend at a club, years ago, and the males ignored me and only talked to her. She wasn't really a conversationalist, or a deep diver, so to speak, so I was confused as to why they preferred talking to her, at first. Then when I sobered up I realized they weren't there to talk. Talking was not on the agenda.

I have been with someone who thinks my curves are gorgeous. Those men are out there. I would like to be at a weight that I am comfortable with, irrespective of what unwanted attention comes along with that. I want to have the power to look the way I want. I don't want to hide in a cage of weight and baggy clothing any longer.

Inner beings are beautiful and everyone is worth taking a chance on getting to know them, regardless of whatever the current standard of beauty is. When I was a teenager waifs were the ideal body type. A lot of people were anorexic. I struggled with it, myself. I am glad that the ideal is a lot thicker these days, but I am sure it makes people that can't gain weight easily feel undesirable.

My sister was overweight in highschool and got bullied. I was very thin and also got bullied. She thought my life was easier, because of my weight. It wasn't. I got sexually harrassed a lot. I wanted to disappear, so I did.

 

[aeon]

I agree with you @aeon. There will always be people who won't find us attractive, but by changing our behavior to be more positive and welcoming, we attract those who do. If nobody notices, find new activities where the men/women your crowd attracts, or you personally attract, will be more diverse in character.

Worked for me. And I like what you said about not choosing by looks. I knew of my current partner for a few years, and then really got to know her and then came to love her over a few months. I had no idea what she looked like, nor did she of me.

When we finally met, we both liked what we discovered, which is quite nice, but I got to know her person before her physicality. Which isn’t to say that physical form is not important, because it is...but it’s one thing of many, and not the greatest of them.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The main thing is to treat people you don't find attractive with kindness and respect, which is the ultimate takeaway from this article and @Gaze's post. It's frustrating that so many people don't treat others with either kindness or respect. It's frustrating when people attach our worth to our level of attractiveness, especially when everyone defines attractiveness differently. We aren't worth less when someone views us as less attractive.

Agreed. And do you know what else is frustrating? When as a man, you are accused of ulterior motives because you treated the woman who was _____ the same way as everyone else, which is to say, friendly, easy-going, and kind. But I don’t blame her or take it personally. It’s not the first time that has happened, and it won’t be the last.

Everybody gets friendly, easy-going, and kind the same way from me. People in customer service either light up, or if they are really stressed, my way will sometimes cause them to relax and then cry a little. I mention them because so many abuse and shit on them. I don’t care what someone’s job or station in life is...they are human beings and people first, their job or duty somewhere further down the line. Of course, some will see you do this and assume you must be so insincere, and that’s too bad. Some people think it means I’m naive, or simple, and try and mess with me. But in general, it is received very well.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Linda Loo]

Worked for me. And I like what you said about not choosing by looks. I knew of my current partner for a few years, and then really got to know her and then came to love her over a few months. I had no idea what she looked like, nor did she of me.

When we finally met, we both liked what we discovered, which is quite nice, but I got to know her person before her physicality. Which isn’t to say that physical form is not important, because it is...but it’s one thing of many, and not the greatest of them.



Agreed. And do you know what else is frustrating? When as a man, you are accused of ulterior motives because you treated the woman who was _____ the same way as everyone else, which is to say, friendly, easy-going, and kind. But I don’t blame her or take it personally. It’s not the first time that has happened, and it won’t be the last.

Everybody gets friendly, easy-going, and kind the same way from me. People in customer service either light up, or if they are really stressed, my way will sometimes cause them to relax and then cry a little. I mention them because so many abuse and shit on them. I don’t care what someone’s job or station in life is...they are human beings and people first, their job or duty somewhere further down the line. Of course, some will see you do this and assume you must be so insincere, and that’s too bad. Some people think it means I’m naive, or simple, and try and mess with me. But in general, it is received very well.

Cheers,
Ian

Bravo. I have the same attitude about people in any service industry. People apologize to me profusely about me having to wait and I say, do not fret. I am not impatient. I can sense they have been screamed at a lot and are used to people loosing their temper. I think that is ludicrous. No one is beneath me for any reason and certainly not their station in life.

 

[aeon]

Bravo. I have the same attitude about people in any service industry. People apologize to me profusely about me having to wait and I say, do not fret. I am not impatient. I can sense they have been screamed at a lot and are used to people loosing their temper. I think that is ludicrous. No one is beneath me for any reason and certainly not their station in life.

Exactly, I have said “no problem, I am a patient man” to more shellshocked customer service folks or agents on the phone than I could count. And they are really surprised when they find out it is true.

I just read an article about people leaving the service industry because of how abusive customers have gotten, especially after COVID. I know it happens, but I just don’t understand it. Maybe because I can’t imagine doing it. Yeah, no one is beneath me, and no one is above either, but some people get cranky if they know you’re not much for upholding hierarchy.

Part of the reason I engage with others like I do is because my parents planted that seed. But that seed was fertilized and nourished by all the different kinds of trauma I have experienced. I know how bad abuse can feel, and I would be horrified to know I had given someone reason to feel that way. So I don’t just try to avoid those things, I try to flip them because it feels good to give people reasons to smile.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Asa]

@aeon + @Linda Loo -- Same, I'm polite and nice to everyone unless people go out of their way to earn otherwise. It isn't being fake, it is about treating people with the general kindness and respect we all deserve. If I see someone left out I try to make a point of including them or sparking up a conversation. The people waiting on us in the service and retail industries work hard. Plus, a good rule of life is: always be nice to the people handling your food or helping you in any way. People are rude to hospital staff, too.

I've worked many service industry and retail jobs and it is disturbing how many people act like I'm the merchandise, that I'm interested because I'm nice (we're paid to be nice), or they play out a weird dom/sub fantasy. The truly upper class and wealthy are polite to everyone and have grace. Those pretending to be rich are more likely to be rude. It doesn't fool anyone when people act like they are better than others.

 

[mintoots]

if you don’t like the situation, you change what you actually have control over...yourself. Second, if you want something, take responsibility for your want, and demonstrate you have by taking action, thereby reinforcing the first part.

This could be a slippery slope though. I think it's also important to note that in "taking action", a person, hopefully, isn't only redefining one's physical appearance because of the search for validation from others. It runs the risk of exerting extensive effort for a societal value that may not at all be that important. I say this because when I was in my teens, I was hell bent on watching my body to stay at par with societal peer pressures. I wasn't sure that this was helping myself esteem either. What I do know was that when I actually "let go" (to hell with calorie counts!!!), I was rather given up about most things. Attaining what I wanted was always an uphill battle as I am genetically predisposed to weight gain. My cousin's wife was reacted upon by my aunt recently because she had finally been gaining weight --- "oh finally! You're looking like you belong to family!". That was a very rude remark, I know, but it happens. I'm trying to say, the independence of choice remains paramount.

Fighting against ugliness is a rather expensive plight too. Make up is expensive, what more of scientific interventions that cut through jaws and noses? I don't think it's fair nor nice to pressure anyone into such change on the account of what is simply wanted and especially not if it's built upon being accepted by something normative. Although to advise for one to "accept oneself" is equally inane for that is a rather tall order too.

All in all, I just wanted to point out that it generally isn't that easy to go for what we want. Things like these are daily battles. Where I want to stand is to accept people in whatever stages they are in their life. The same applies for beautiful people too. Someone can be rather beautiful but be more broken in several ways than one; we all need our breathing spaces whatever we look like.

I do agree that embarking on such a change is important if it stands to damage a person's outlook in life but it's critical that we know why we're doing it too. All change is superfluous anyway and we don't know which way anyone of us are going toward. I think it's nice to change ourselves somewhat but it must also be carefully done.

 

[Roses In The Vineyard]

It is crap like this that just black pills anyone who happens to look into the abyss when it comes to issues like this and it just doesn't only affect women but men as well especially when like 80% are regarded as undesirable by society's increasingly unreachable standards. Just comes to show why so many under 40 are dropping out altogether while the top 20% or so have all their fun as most relationships are just so disposable without there really being any real connection these days.

Hello Universe 25 as society is well on its way to being a mouse utopia.

 

[aeon]

This could be a slippery slope though. I think it's also important to note that in "taking action", a person, hopefully, isn't only redefining one's physical appearance because of the search for validation from others. It runs the risk of exerting extensive effort for a societal value that may not at all be that important. I say this because when I was in my teens, I was hell bent on watching my body to stay at par with societal peer pressures. I wasn't sure that this was helping myself esteem either. What I do know was that when I actually "let go" (to hell with calorie counts!!!), I was rather given up about most things. Attaining what I wanted was always an uphill battle as I am genetically predisposed to weight gain. My cousin's wife was reacted upon by my aunt recently because she had finally been gaining weight --- "oh finally! You're looking like you belong to family!". That was a very rude remark, I know, but it happens. I'm trying to say, the independence of choice remains paramount.

Fighting against ugliness is a rather expensive plight too. Make up is expensive, what more of scientific interventions that cut through jaws and noses? I don't think it's fair nor nice to pressure anyone into such change on the account of what is simply wanted and especially not if it's built upon being accepted by something normative. Although to advise for one to "accept oneself" is equally inane for that is a rather tall order too.

All in all, I just wanted to point out that it generally isn't that easy to go for what we want. Things like these are daily battles. Where I want to stand is to accept people in whatever stages they are in their life. The same applies for beautiful people too. Someone can be rather beautiful but be more broken in several ways than one; we all need our breathing spaces whatever we look like.

I do agree that embarking on such a change is important if it stands to damage a person's outlook in life but it's critical that we know why we're doing it too. All change is superfluous anyway and we don't know which way anyone of us are going toward. I think it's nice to change ourselves somewhat but it must also be carefully done.

Your point is well taken, and I agree. That said, if you go back and look at the post @Asa made which I responded to, the extent of her recommended efforts in this regard stop at being groomed and well-dressed, and that is a big part of what I really appreciated about her post. All other things being equal, it’s better to be fresh-scrubbed, shine your shoes, and smile, than it is to be otherwise.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[mintoots]

Your point is well taken, and I agree. That said, if you go back and look at the post @Asa made which I responded to, the extent of her recommended efforts in this regard stop at being groomed and well-dressed, and that is a big part of what I really appreciated about her post. All other things being equal, it’s better to be fresh-scrubbed, shine your shoes, and smile, than it is to be otherwise.

Cheers,
Ian

Yes I read that part too. I simply wanted to hinge to the subtopic to point out what could be taken differently by some of us reading.