privilege

[Stu]

I notice a great reluctance of most white Americans to acknowledge that there are privileges to being in the majority. If they do so they are somehow negating the work and suffering that attaining what modest gains they have made in life.

I do not see the point in being blind to what is so incredibly obvious. (to me anyway)

 

[Gul Dukat]

I do not see the point in being blind to what is so incredibly obvious. (to me anyway)

Insulting someone's intelligence/perceptions isn't the same thing as making a valid argument.

 

[the]

Insulting someone's intelligence/perceptions isn't the same thing as making a valid argument.

Daaaaaaammmmmmnnnnnnnnnn!

 

[Stu]

Insulting someone's intelligence/perceptions isn't the same thing as making a valid argument.

being incapable or unwilling to see what is obvious to me no way inpunes your ability. I fully accept that what i deem "obvious" may in fact be false. However my life experience tells me otherwise.

I see a society which is rife with economic disparities. They are ethnically and racial biased. True equality requires alteration of the disparities. I do not claim that such a task is straight forward but admitting we have a problem, and that we all have a piece of it is a good first step.

 

[Tin Man]

Obviously. The fact that you didn't understand how what I said is like what you said, is kind of weird.



Is that another way of saying "stop arguing"? Seriously?



I'm pretty sure that's exactly how I interpreted it. Though realize this is completely irrelevant. I'm lucky to have two functioning kidneys, and how is this relevant to the topic?



It's not random because it's the discussion topic.



Irrelevant



Do what you want, stop being so defensive.

Ok, my argument is that being white is a privilege in the same vein as being born in a prosperous country. You shouldn't feel guilty for this. I'm not saying you should ignore injustice or that there’s no point in trying to change it.

So far you've insinuated I'm a racist (“Or are you telling minorities to shut the fuck up”), that I told you to stop arguing and that I'm an idiot (“…and to hopefully have you think”). If you don’t agree with me, that’s fine, but I'm not going to be insulted by you.

 

[Gul Dukat]

being incapable or unwilling to see what is obvious to me no way inpunes your ability. I fully accept that what i deem "obvious" may in fact be false. However my life experience tells me otherwise.

I see a society which is rife with economic disparities. They are ethnically and racial biased. True equality requires alteration of the disparities. I do not claim that such a task is straight forward but admitting we have a problem, and that we all have a piece of it is a good first step.

I think that a lot of the so-called 'racial' divisions aren't actually race-related and are more culturally related... people might initially respond to race but I refuse to believe that it's the massive stumbling block that some people make it out to be. The problem is more likely to be culture and/or subculture. It only appears that race is the issue because of segregation... and because that segregation perpetuates adherence to subcultural or cultural practices and values that put people at odds with the status quo. And there isn't a nation on Earth that can be reasonably expected to completely abandon ALL of its formalities and conventions.

I've lived in a couple of different cultures in my life and the superficial differences were never the biggest problem... as long as you are polite, practice good hygiene, speak the language and don't act like a tourist, most people aren't going to have a problem... in fact, they'll be glad to have you on board. If you are likeable and can bring a perspective on board that actually improves their operation, employers are going to love you. They won't care what you look like, but they WILL care how you dress, how you speak, and how you behave.

This is why certain groups are more likely to prosper in American society than others-- because of their cultural values. ANYONE can adapt to this culture, because it is primarily liberal and tolerant and accepting of differences. Plenty of first or second generation Asians thrive in western society, because their parents bring over family virtues like self-discipline and legacy and putting the interests of your family before your own... they don't end up taking liberal arts because it's their 'dream', they become doctors and lawyers because it's what their parents push them into... and in the end they realize that it's good to be successful and carrying on the family name and sacrificing their 'dreams' for success is its own reward... they put the interests of the business/job ahead of their own, and ALL employers LOVE that. If whites are so racist, then how did Asians manage to prosper in western society?

And really, being followed in the supermarket is hardly an issue worth discussing. I was profiled at the airport a few weeks ago for being a single white male with a Thailand stamp in my passport. It's something that we all need to learn to accept because there's just no way around it... cops aren't going to ignore what race you are if they think it will help with their profile.

And I can't believe that someone in this thread tried to blame white people for Asian racism!! Anyone who has been to an Asian country should know that their racism runs extremely deep because they've never had to deal with a multicultural society. There is so much homogeneity that racism isn't even an issue... seeing even one person who is a non-Korean or Non-Japanese or Non-Chinese is enough to make them turn their heads and stare. They're just not equipped enough psychologically to deal with issues of race... so when they immigrate to western society, they bring that baggage with them. Their children, on the other hand, are more likely to be open and tolerant... because they're being raised in western society.

 

[Stu]

I think that a lot of the so-called 'racial' divisions aren't actually race-related and are more culturally related... people might initially respond to race but I refuse to believe that it's the massive stumbling block that some people make it out to be. The problem is more likely to be culture and/or subculture. It only appears that race is the issue because of segregation... and because that segregation perpetuates adherence to subcultural or cultural practices and values that put people at odds with the status quo. And there isn't a nation on Earth that can be reasonably expected to completely abandon ALL of its formalities and conventions.

I've lived in a couple of different cultures in my life and the superficial differences were never the biggest problem... as long as you are polite, practice good hygiene, speak the language and don't act like a tourist, most people aren't going to have a problem... in fact, they'll be glad to have you on board. If you are likeable and can bring a perspective on board that actually improves their operation, employers are going to love you. They won't care what you look like, but they WILL care how you dress, how you speak, and how you behave.

This is why certain groups are more likely to prosper in American society than others-- because of their cultural values. ANYONE can adapt to this culture, because it is primarily liberal and tolerant and accepting of differences. Plenty of first or second generation Asians thrive in western society, because their parents bring over family virtues like self-discipline and legacy and putting the interests of your family before your own... they don't end up taking liberal arts because it's their 'dream', they become doctors and lawyers because it's what their parents push them into... and in the end they realize that it's good to be successful and carrying on the family name and sacrificing their 'dreams' for success is its own reward... they put the interests of the business/job ahead of their own, and ALL employers LOVE that. If whites are so racist, then how did Asians manage to prosper in western society?

And really, being followed in the supermarket is hardly an issue worth discussing. I was profiled at the airport a few weeks ago for being a single white male with a Thailand stamp in my passport. It's something that we all need to learn to accept because there's just no way around it... cops aren't going to ignore what race you are if they think it will help with their profile.

And I can't believe that someone in this thread tried to blame white people for Asian racism!! Anyone who has been to an Asian country should know that their racism runs extremely deep because they've never had to deal with a multicultural society. There is so much homogeneity that racism isn't even an issue... seeing even one person who is a non-Korean or Non-Japanese or Non-Chinese is enough to make them turn their heads and stare. They're just not equipped enough psychologically to deal with issues of race... so when they immigrate to western society, they bring that baggage with them. Their children, on the other hand, are more likely to be open and tolerant... because they're being raised in western society.

not sure why you quoted me. you have it all figured out, how was Thailand? (wink)

OK, several hours and one thumbs down later,
Let me say that I understand where you are cumming from. You are taking a much more cosmopolitan view then I am capable of. My experience pertains to the US and mainly with my interactions with poor people, those that live in a cycle of poverty that has kept them down for generations.

All the black people that I am friends with do not fall into this category. They are all from successful families and do well for themselves. But they, to a person, feel the weight of racism to some degree and are open about how it affects them.

My family history is one of escape from poverty, not me but my parents.

Having and utilizing an advantage was critical in that escape. I see that quite clearly.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Why would a cashier take it upon his or her self to scrutinize anyone?

It could well be that the store simply instructs its employees to carefully examine every 7th cheque.
Perhaps the poor girl simply backed off because she was accused of racism, when she was only trying to do her low-paying job.


Could this be a case of projection? The black lady may have seen racism, where there was simply discomfort because it was time to go through the awkward process of checking a cheque.

 

[Mary Shelley]

It could well be that the store simply instructs its employees to carefully examine every 7th cheque. Perhaps the poor girl simply backed off because she was accused of racism, when she was only trying to do her low-paying job.

Could this be a case of projection? The black lady may have seen racism, where there was simply discomfort because it was time to go through the awkward process of checking a cheque.

You could imagine that these things were true if you were dedicated enough to missing the point.

 

[Stu]

@Gul Dukat

not sure why you quoted me. you have it all figured out, how was Thailand? (wink)

OK, several hours and one thumbs down later,
Let me say that I understand where you are coming from. You are taking a much more cosmopolitan view then I am capable of. My experience pertains to the US and mainly with my interactions with poor people, those that live in a cycle of poverty that has kept them down for generations.

All the black people that I am friends with do not fall into this category. They are all from successful families and do well for themselves. But they, to a person, feel the weight of racism to some degree and are open about how it affects them.

My family history is one of escape from poverty, not me but my parents.

Having and utilizing an advantage was critical in that escape. I see that quite clearly.

.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

You could imagine that these things were true if you were dedicated enough to missing the point.

On the contrary, I think it is worth exploring the possibility that both "white privilege" and "racism" may at times be more intense in some people, who project these notions/feelings onto unsuspecting individuals

It is possible (not measuring likelihood) that it was the woman, her daughter and her relative that brought racism and dynamics of privilege into a situation.

Experiences of racism and disadvantage can colour how a person will interpret future situations - a kind of conditioning in responses. If such conditioning can take seat in a person, they will never be free from racism, or a sense of disadvantage - not because of external factors, but because of internal ones.

Conditioned responses can operate in areas such as:
* Superstition
* Persecution complex
* Conspiracy theories
* Post traumatic disorders...

So why not racism and a sense of disadvantage... even in a situation where a check-out-chick might have clammed up and been somewhat defensive because she had to perform a credit check?


I do not deny that it is more likely that the check-out-chick was being a bitch, but it was not perceived as a random experience by the lady in the video. She thought it was symbolic of a general pattern in her life experience. This makes me think that she has at least some degree of racism/disadvantage complex, which at times will see prejudice which simply is not there.

 

[Colt]

the reason people get offend by this is semantical. No one likes to be called "privileged" when they have worked hard for the things they've got.

I mean this is what I think of when I hear the word "privileged":

 

[Mary Shelley]

the reason people get offend by this is semantical. No one likes to be called "privileged" when they have worked hard for the things they've got.

I mean this is what I think of when I hear the word "privileged":

That's funny. This is similar to the image I have every time a straight white middle class educated housed and fed western male says he's not privileged.

 

[Colt]

That's funny. This is similar to the image I have every time a straight white middle class educated housed and fed western male says he's not privileged.

I assume you consider yourself not privileged or underprivileged by your statement. But I assure you that you are privileged compared to many others in this world. All of us in 1st world countries are.

I am also curious to know how being white makes me more privileged than say Barak Obama. If me and the president walked into a store at the same time who do you think would get the special treatment?

 

[Stu]

driving is a privilege

 

[Mary Shelley]

I assume you consider yourself not privileged or underprivileged by your statement. But I assure you that you are privileged compared to many others in this world. All of us in 1st world countries are.

I am also curious to know how being white makes me more privileged than say Barak Obama. If me and the president walked into a store at the same time who do you think would get the special treatment?

I am quite privileged. I may not have all of the ones you have but I may also have some you do not have.

Obama is notable for being the first black president. This would not be notable if the races had historically had equal status.

 

[Colt]

I am quite privileged. I may not have all of the ones you have but I may also have some you do not have.

Obama is notable for being the first black president. This would not be notable if the races had historically had equal status.

No one has equal status. Obama would not be the first black president if he was not rich. The point is that we can talk about history as much as we want, but how exactly does that help anything today? All it really does is hinder us from attaining true equality. We are not races, or genders, or sexuality preferences. We are individuals. The reason it hinders us is because it creates feelings of resentment amongst us and becomes more us vs them. We need to move forward and condemn racist/sexist/etc behavior rather than focusing on how it exists between certain groupings. The more taboo these things become the more equality there will be. No one would be racist or sexist if it carried the same status in society as being a pedophile or necrophiliac. We are getting there, but we are not there yet. That's what we need to aim for imo. Not things that create greater divides such as what I'd refer to as privilege shaming.

 

[Mary Shelley]

We are not races, or genders, or sexuality preferences. We are individuals. The reason it hinders us is because it creates feelings of resentment amongst us and becomes more us vs them.

It's easy for an empowered majority to attempt to erase minorities. As it turns out, ignoring disparity does not create equality. It is invalidating for someone in such a position to dismiss the struggles that others have faced. It is neither divisive to acknowledge nor redress these disparities. If the comradely of oppressed minorities is threatening to you, you may instead reconsider your position. These "groupings" have been fought for, bled for, and died for; they are not yours to destroy nor take from them even when members of them become successful by your measures.

44 men have held the office of presidency.
44 have claimed Christianity.
44 have claimed heterosexuality.
44 have claimed Caucasian heritage.
1 has been multiracial.
Most have been wealthy.

This is your best example of equality?

 

[Colt]

It is invalidating for someone in such a position to dismiss the struggles that others have faced.

But it is somehow ok to invalidate the struggles of white heterosexual men? I should tell the man covered in dirt and grime who talks to himself on my main street corner that he is a privileged person because he is a white, presumably heterosexual male. I doubt very much that he would agree with me.

I also never said that the "camaraderie of oppressed minorities" was threatening to me. I mean calling white males privileged and acting like people in "empowered" positions didn't struggle to obtain what they have is insulting but not threatening. I don't want to take anything away from anyone I'm just tired of people acting like I've had everything handed to me just because I'm white, I'm heterosexual and I'm male. I've worked hard for everything in my life and it's insulting to say that I haven't. That is what "privilege" infers. And that is the reason the term is derisive. Not any other reason.

 

[Mary Shelley]

But it is somehow ok to invalidate the struggles of white heterosexual men? I should tell the man covered in dirt and grime who talks to himself on my main street corner that he is a privileged person because he is a white, presumably heterosexual male. I doubt very much that he would agree with me.

A homeless man who ALSO has to face racism is less privileged by definition.

Poor widdle white hetereosexual men with nobodies to feels sorry for em except themselves.