Psychological manipulation/warfare used on a personal level
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Same here. Never played games, never associated with those who do. When I was younger, if someone tried to play "games" with me... or even around me, I would usually make it a point to publically humiliate them on the spot, at the first sign of such behavior (when I was in public around such a person of course)
I one time stood a girl up who literally was in bed and invited me to join her. The same girl the day before had tried some passive aggressive BS because I was unable to leave work early to make a 6 hour drive to see this person.
After this nonsense showed up, I stayed for 24 hours, as I wasn't keen on making a 6 hr drive a 12 hour drive...
the next day, I think she felt satisfied with herself, and was now willing to "hook up" because she had worked out her immaturity or whatever.
I slept on the couch, much to her confusion and surprise.
I left immediately as soon as I woke up, and I ignored her phone calls, and never again spoke to her.
That was it. One meeting, one evening that she tried to get over on me by refusing to have sex the first night because she was too insecure about whatever and felt shafted that I wouldn't just neglect everything and get in my car and drive to her place earlier that day.
it's kinda too bad, she was pretty cute... but the surprised confused look on her face was well worth the "sacrifice".
And that's about the closest I've ever come to experiencing "games/manipulations/etc" in my personal or social sphere.
over the last 10 years, when one of the very rare occassions comes up and I happen to cross paths with someone foolish and petty enough to try anything remotely resembling such behavior...
I stand them up on the spot, in public, private, or otherwise. I tell them exactly how it makes me feel. and I tell them exactly how it makes them look in my eyes. I tell them that such behavior is confusing and hurtful, and I don't associate with people who are unable to communicate clearly, or are unable/unwillling to interact with those they consider "part of their social circle" in a way that isn't cruel or dysfunctional.
At this point, they usually deny such behavior, and look at me as if I'M the idiot.
I then re-iterate to them exactly what I said... and ask them slowly if there was any part of what I said that they didn't understand... and if need be, i will dictate it all over again to them, if they care to write it down. I promise to go as slow as they need to write it, since they are obviously confused by this.
Now, they generally go into a defensive mode, saying they arn't confused, and i'm the one confused.
and to bring it all to a conclusion, at this point I generally will say something along the lines of "you know, I was giving you an honest, straightforward, heartfelt explanation for my postion. You are choosing to interpret that in a way that it simply isn't. since we obviously cannot communicate with each other very well, as this entire conversation has exemplified, then it's obvious we don't have any reason to waste any more time in each others company. Goodbye"
And then I walk away, delete numbers, forget both faces and names, and move on.
BS people deserve BS interaction from me...which is to say, none.
Trifoilum
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[MENTION=5662]ENT8[/MENTION];
Not to pick on you (I think you have a very reasonable, if not mature, way of dealing with those bullshits); just a random musing.
What if I said that demanding honesty is in itself a psychological attack?
Not that it's bad; morally wrong, or anything negative;
but as far as warring goes, it has a side dish of "I demand you to go beyond your comfort zone and your safety area so I could engage you in the areas where I have more advantages."
It still affects the battlefield; the opposition party.
It's really funny. <3
-IF- we're talking about warring, the only thing matters is the blows being dealt. Not whether we are right or wrong, justified or not, attacking or defending.
Position matters only when we gain some advantages from it.
Not to pick on you (I think you have a very reasonable, if not mature, way of dealing with those bullshits); just a random musing.
What if I said that demanding honesty is in itself a psychological attack?
Not that it's bad; morally wrong, or anything negative;
but as far as warring goes, it has a side dish of "I demand you to go beyond your comfort zone and your safety area so I could engage you in the areas where I have more advantages."
It still affects the battlefield; the opposition party.
It's really funny. <3
-IF- we're talking about warring, the only thing matters is the blows being dealt. Not whether we are right or wrong, justified or not, attacking or defending.
Position matters only when we gain some advantages from it.
Ahhh... very astute Trifolium. And your ALMOST right... it's really more of a "counter attack" - at least as I set it up (and have used it). It absolutely could be used just as an attack against some people in certain situations.
However, it's really more of an "atom bomb" in that it either wins the battle outright, or it forces out in the open a "deeper nature" about a relationship that if exposed, would show very plainly how wrong that aspect of the relationship is, and such a revelation usually demands some sort of change.
Unless of course the person using it is morally in the the wrong! in which case, it's like building an atomic warhead with a faulty rocket system. Push the button, and watch yourself get blown the F up.
However, it is easier to discuss in a forum than it is to actually employ such a strategy. It takes a certain person, and a certain level of geninue authenticity and revelation that I find most folks would rather not expose. (thus, it's PARTICULARLY effective against "game players" who nearly always use dishonesty in the form of subcontext, sarcasm, and inference to attack). But, the key to using it well is to be able to identify within yourself exactly what your feeling, AND why... while being "attacked"... and being able to keep step with that internal knowledge as they try to manuver their attacks around it.
If one can keep in tune with such feelings, and why they exist, as well as how they really feel about what is being "done to them", and why it is being done.... it is extremely effective. The best i've found so far. But, it's not easy to do this while you are being attacked.
There is a Ghandi quote that goes something along the lines of: "yes, the british have the guns, and the army, fine. So we will engage them on a plane in which their guns and their army are useless. We will engage them in a battle of the heart, of truth... and on this battlefield we will be victorious, because they have no weapon that can defend against it"
I don't remember the exact quote, but it goes something like that. I thought it was one of the most profound quotes I had ever read. I figure "worked for Ghandi...hell, works for me too!"
ENT8
Trifoilum
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So the goal, the purpose is to win?
If so, it's particularly effective, yes. And you're not particularly wrong either.
But in perfect honesty, that's still playing the field.
....and again, I'm not judging you or the others who'd done this, neither am I elevating myself above this shit (no sir, guilty as charged) although I am possibly being offending here, and my sincerest apologies (although I'm not retracting my words, so, yeah. Useless? Maybe.);
I'm pointing out the fact (and possibly shattering certain pedestals or two); some people loved the romantic idea of 'being in the right side' (me included, seriously) that we were too blind to realize we're facing mirrors. At least, I certainly did that. Hopefully none of you weren't.
IMO,
These wars are all political.
And honesty is just yet another sort of weaponry.
Honesty and sincerity and truths can still be used for manipulation.
Church-sanctioned weaponry, I guess.
And God, so...many apologies. So many...controversial opinions I just sprouted.
I really should stay away from this topic.
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Zebraf301
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I'm curious what fueled this thread, is it a particular, or general train that you've been focusing on in your life, or literature, perhaps? I'm earnestly eager to know some highlights of what you've learned...
I disagree with it being "still playing the field". It ends the ability for one to engage in such behaviors. The goal isn't to arbitrarily "win"... the goal is to give them one chance to recognize the manipulative behavior they are exhibiting. And then, if they don't recognize it for what it is, and take a different tact, it simply makes any further attempt on their behalf futile.
If indeed they do not recognize their behavior for what it is, In keeping with this same approach of authenticity, one would simply inform the "manuipultor" that they will have nothing more to do with them. period.
it's not about "winning", it's about recognizing when someone is trying to START playing games, and then immediately demanding a more functional, authentic form of communiction. if they don't choose this, then one simply ends the relationship on that same note. period.
To use an analogy, if someone wants to play hide and go seek, fine. I just tell them I am not playing that game.
By recognize it for what it is, and calling it out, it makes further engagement impossible. Furthermore, it's not about getting ones way, it's about honesty in a relationship.
so, it isn't "winning", because it actually allows the truth to surface for BOTH sides to see clearly, and thus, it destroys any power that EITHER holds over the other gained via manipulative actions/communication.
If you want to argue "well, if one person wants honesty and authenticity, and another wants something else...it's still engaging them, because it's what one person wants vs another", well, ok. I suppose we can argue good and evil till the cows come home. Bottom line is it's a way to directly confront such behavior and strip it nude to be seen for what it really is. It either ends there, or the relationship does. This is of course not the only way to put an end to "manipulative behaivor" but is a particularly effective one in my opinion.
all manipulation is about someone gaining psychological power in a subtle way over another. by recognizing this outright in direct communication, it prevents this approach this from being effective... if done correctly, it prevents this for BOTH parties.
Yep. I do the same. again, haven't had to use it in a long time, and for the most part have found more refined ways of dealing with this should it appear, but I doubt that will ever prevent me from basically being ready for more extreme measures should the situation require a more blunt, hard hitting weapon
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just me
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@Zebraf301 , I have learned evaluation, recognition, and how to stand. It is almost like seeing a storm coming, or maybe just an afternoon's summer rain. I seek shelter. I have built a security fence around my life and the older I get, the less people are allowed entrance. It is a place of sanctity and safety. I stay sober and vigilant. I have learned to distinguish between messing around and going after something.
@To all, a person representing themself as such is revealing their strategy and it is an attack. Passive aggressive was mentioned, but I really don't know how passive this is. In their mind, they would rather not reveal their true intent.
However, they have exposed their inner mind and heart. If dots were representing space between myself and them,
.................I have placed space between the two of us. If they do it again?
.......................a little more space. If they do something with malicious timing?
....................................................................................continuity?
.........................................................................................................................................................
.............I may no longer read their texts, answer their phone calls, and I have gone as far as writing legal letters.
Honesty, sincerity, and truths: if classified as weapons, maybe should be classified as armour or a shield. They are for defensive measures. In this "battle of the heart", can there actually be a winner? Is there such a thing in war? Doesn't everyone lose something? In this "expression of negativity", I see no winner. Should I stand in my learnings, I have already lost my peace and quiet.
I, too, like closure. I do not like having something that was buried at sea resurface. The smell, and the audacity: let it be. Don't push me into a corner. I don't mind confrontation and am not new to it, as time has taught me to try and steer clear of it. Maybe it is just best for me personally after so many years and so many confrontations, but people should remember better than to cross the line in the sand. I shall sharpen my sword. I do shun it but will not run from it. I give opportunity for the other to cease and desist. I pray they will. They have put more space between us already; why should they burn their bridge?
I have learned a scripture or two and will post them in the Bible Group so as not to turn this into a religious thread. That way, the spiritual can read it if they wish and will surely remember it. The non-spiritual can read it if they are curious and may learn something for their own personal use. Most people already know to use these things. The more I read the responses, the more I thought about the armour.
Manipulation is used by others for personal gain. When they evaluate what they want in comparison to what they are causing, it would be best if they learned a bit, too. Sometimes it is hard letting go. If they cannot? ..........................................................................................................
........................................................................................................................
.................................................I go to my place of solace. More later. Great discussion
and I am pleased with the answers.
There are surely times people feel wronged. Two wrongs do not make one right. Lowering oneself to another's measures is not becoming, though we most likely all do it on occasion over a lifetime.
Resorting to manipulation and mind games does not calm the water. When confronted in this manner, we must always consider the source and reasoning. Sometimes it is best to merely overlook it.
@To all, a person representing themself as such is revealing their strategy and it is an attack. Passive aggressive was mentioned, but I really don't know how passive this is. In their mind, they would rather not reveal their true intent.
However, they have exposed their inner mind and heart. If dots were representing space between myself and them,
.................I have placed space between the two of us. If they do it again?
.......................a little more space. If they do something with malicious timing?
....................................................................................continuity?
.........................................................................................................................................................
.............I may no longer read their texts, answer their phone calls, and I have gone as far as writing legal letters.
Honesty, sincerity, and truths: if classified as weapons, maybe should be classified as armour or a shield. They are for defensive measures. In this "battle of the heart", can there actually be a winner? Is there such a thing in war? Doesn't everyone lose something? In this "expression of negativity", I see no winner. Should I stand in my learnings, I have already lost my peace and quiet.
I, too, like closure. I do not like having something that was buried at sea resurface. The smell, and the audacity: let it be. Don't push me into a corner. I don't mind confrontation and am not new to it, as time has taught me to try and steer clear of it. Maybe it is just best for me personally after so many years and so many confrontations, but people should remember better than to cross the line in the sand. I shall sharpen my sword. I do shun it but will not run from it. I give opportunity for the other to cease and desist. I pray they will. They have put more space between us already; why should they burn their bridge?
I have learned a scripture or two and will post them in the Bible Group so as not to turn this into a religious thread. That way, the spiritual can read it if they wish and will surely remember it. The non-spiritual can read it if they are curious and may learn something for their own personal use. Most people already know to use these things. The more I read the responses, the more I thought about the armour.
Manipulation is used by others for personal gain. When they evaluate what they want in comparison to what they are causing, it would be best if they learned a bit, too. Sometimes it is hard letting go. If they cannot? ..........................................................................................................
........................................................................................................................
.................................................I go to my place of solace. More later. Great discussion
and I am pleased with the answers.
There are surely times people feel wronged. Two wrongs do not make one right. Lowering oneself to another's measures is not becoming, though we most likely all do it on occasion over a lifetime.
Resorting to manipulation and mind games does not calm the water. When confronted in this manner, we must always consider the source and reasoning. Sometimes it is best to merely overlook it.
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Trifoilum
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I just think that "I quit; I don't want to play with your games anymore." is different than "I know you're doing this and I'm calling you out. [Insert any additional sentence here]". The way I see it; one is the other laced with aggression. "I'm going to back out from here, but I'm still taking my chances to hurt you and put you in your place."
But I see your point.
That's alright.
I don't really have an objection towards your way of looking at things, and I apologize if my words (...well, they are quotes, after all) is seen as such.knight in battle
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These days, I try to stick to my own business and put the other person out of the picture.
I try to remain calm until I can understand where I may have contributed to a conflictual response from the other person. I really don't prefer conflict, so I work to bring my mind to a state of peace. The result is usually the above (sticking to my own business) while understanding that the other person may still be in a state of agitation or conflict---which may have more to do with the other person's state of mind than my own.
I try to remain calm until I can understand where I may have contributed to a conflictual response from the other person. I really don't prefer conflict, so I work to bring my mind to a state of peace. The result is usually the above (sticking to my own business) while understanding that the other person may still be in a state of agitation or conflict---which may have more to do with the other person's state of mind than my own.
I like a lot of what you said KIB, but this in particular stood out. I try to always look at what my role is in any given situation. Sometimes my role can be the simple fact that I allowed someone in my life and/or engaged with them in a way that I was/am not aware of. I think we all play a part even in crummy relationships. The better understanding I have of my particular part provides me with a way to disengage. I was trying to say this earlier but it wasn't very clear.
CindyLou
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My sister is a borderline and I have an ex with diagnosed borderline personality disorder. They play games. So, as a response I've gotten pretty good at responding to the games with my ownI guess, as a defense mechanism. I'm not sure if its responding or playing or what, but I notice games pretty quickly. I don't judge even though with borderlines it is always suspiciously like their games are always so self-serving but the only ones I think are malicious with their games at their very core are the really messed up people; the sociopaths.
Gaze
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The tricky think about not playing the game is that for some, you become even more of a challenge, they then think you're weak or incapable of fighting back or responding, so think they've won, and may push even further to see how far they can go before you fight back. That's difficult. I notice that I will often use resignation, from my end, to say, I'm not interested in returning fire, thinking that they see it as a sign that I'm not falling for the manipulation. But I'm realizing more and more that people read resignation differently than it's often intended. When I thought I had the upper hand by showing resignation, many thought it was concession and an acknowledgment that they'd won. So, what you think you are communicating with one response maybe interpreted differently by the individual who is looking for a duel. Interesting stuff.
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Do you think this method allows people to come clean and apologize, or does it just make them feel stupid and ruin relationships?
Gaze
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Where I'm from, people would say, sometimes people need a taste of their own medecine. Maybe it they felt the hurt and pain of what they're doing, it would make them think twice. Being nice to people or ignoring them doesn't seem to work always, so if they can't handle someone confronting them with their BS, then maybe they'll experience enough shame to avoid continuing the manipulation, at least with the person who stood up to them.
@ENT8, and I always find it interesting when people pretend they don't know what you're talking about when they're confronted with their actions. They are suddenly quite innocent and clueless. It's really interesting and inspiring.
Again, sometimes, people need a taste of their own medecine or else they'll think it's cute to keep on playing these games.
I just think that "I quit; I don't want to play with your games anymore." is different than "I know you're doing this and I'm calling you out. [Insert any additional sentence here]". The way I see it; one is the other laced with aggression. "I'm going to back out from here, but I'm still taking my chances to hurt you and put you in your place."
But I see your point.
That's alright.
no apology necessary Tri... not sure how just HOW familiar you are with the enneagram psych model... but feel free to look up what an "enneagram 8" is all about, and you'll realize why no apology is necessary
forgive my ego-centrism, but it is I who felt provided an opportunity to show you YOUR mistake in interpreting my views! haha! yes... it's hardly the more agreeable paradigm of the 6... and it's funny, in your question itself it was quite clear you were indeed a 6. I find 6's more than any other type (in fact, it is what defines them in many ways) seem to somehow, deep down, feel "everything is relative, and it could go either way...it's such a mindfuck! aaaahhhh!!! how do i know which one to choose, or what this really means!"
now please, dont' be offended
i'm totally exaggerating for the purpose of illustrating the "essence" of the type 6. this is totally oversimplilfied and unrealistic description! but, when you questioned what i put down as "could be just another step in the same game, right?" I knew where you were coming from, and felt the need to clarify. Such is the nature of an 8... clarity of thought is not our pitfall. but as you may or may not know... we are not without our own pretty serious pitfalls, if left unchecked or exists in dysfunction. As you said, one is laced with aggression. While not necessarily the case, if the other person refuses to quickly drop the charade... it will be experienced as temped steel like aggression. Something inside me would feel beaten or used if I wasn't able to exercise my feelings in this manner... revenge and vindictive behavior are also traits of the 8...and also often unbecoming, to say the least.good to chat tho, always nice to partake in thoughtful, honest discussion on a more intimate level than usual.
ENT8
It's used with a great deal of discretion, and in fact the very few times i've had to employ it... i've never got to the "end" where we part ways. because in those couple of cases, these were either close family members, or friends who were misdirecting their personal stress in a very disfuncitional manner towards me.
I use it like a mirror made of solid steel and set in granite. It's not going to give in to such dysfunctional behavior, and in fact will only reflect back to them what they put out... but, it's a shield that can't be broken or moved...not a sword. it doesn't attack. it's they that bludgeon themselves against it.
the moment that they back down, i offer a subtle gestere of consolation, and see how it is taken. if it's clear that they are no longer willling to press the issue, and accept the gesture, or at very least, don't throw it back in my face...then the level of authenticity actually usually works to foster a moment of honest realization, and can be somewhat paradigm shifting for them, as they see how something in their minds is in fact manefesting itself to hurt those they love and care about.
i'm also quick to tell them to think nothing of it, that maybe i stepped over the line, and that i can be a jerk from time to time.
this further helps them save face, and put them in a place where they have 3 realizations at one time:
1. that they have a real friend, who is willing to support them at all times, but is not willing to be walked on in any way...and usually this fosters respect. always a good thing for both parties to experience.
2. that they were in a state of negativity, and their behavior was hurting those close to them, but they can see that now, AND know that no lasting harm has been done, and they are in fact supported. they may be ashamed or embarrased for
a short while, but that's a natural and healthy response to the situation, and also a temporary one. in the end, they have always appreciated the truth and the unwavering loyalty to them in spite of their actions.
3. they are often able to then see the true source of their emotions, and deal with them directly now within themselves, which speeds up the time it will take for them to heal whatever is hurting them and move on in a more effective manner.
I tell my wife that I believe just about any type of food can be made in a way that someone will enjoy it, even if it's a food they normally would "hate" or "refuse to eat" (we cook together from time to time, and we enjoy it) when we met, she had a few things that she thought she could never like... however, by using them in some real gourmet, artisian like culinary creations, they can be transformed into something acceptable, and even enjoyable and highly complementary to a meal...and a palette!
I feel the same way about communication. you can say almost anything, to anyone, as long as your mind is clear, your ego is absent and your heart is open.
because in that state, a person can do no wrong, but only right... however, if one is so dysfunctional that they chooose to bludgeon themselves against the mirror of steel set in granite to the point where they seriously hurt themselves....
then this is a person so dysfunctional that it is best to let them sabotague it right now, rather than letting such a malevolent, myopic and emotionally dangerous person that close to me for any continued amount of time.
Mirrors, shields... not swords. it's all in how one brandishes it, and to what purpose.
Do you understand how this is very different that what you may have seen it as initially?
ENT8
Where I'm from, people would say, sometimes people need a taste of their own medecine. Maybe it they felt the hurt and pain of what they're doing, it would make them think twice. Being nice to people or ignoring them doesn't seem to work always, so if they can't handle someone confronting them with their BS, then maybe they'll experience enough shame to avoid continuing the manipulation, at least with the person who stood up to them.
@ENT8, and I always find it interesting when people pretend they don't know what you're talking about when they're confronted with their actions. They are suddenly quite innocent and clueless. It's really interesting and inspiring.
Again, sometimes, people need a taste of their own medecine or else they'll think it's cute to keep on playing these games.
Thank you Ame... yes, on an emtional level, that is absolutely what it is like. a taste of their own medicine. and I already said, if executed properly, it will only act as a catalyst to help all parties feel better about whats going on. unless of course one of the parties is really deep into their dysfunction, in which case it's nice to be able to defend oneself from a genuine threat, that would never at the present time be able to feel the same level of sympathy or empathy for me as I could feel for them...
and that is just a really emotionally dangerous place to be. best not to be there at all.
ENT8