[MENTION=5662]ENT8[/MENTION]
That is a very good strategy.
THanks, glad you appreciate it. It took me a good 1/3 of my life to finally figure it out as a good way to get ACTUAL resolution to subtle manipulations and indirect aggressions. In my younger days, I would tell them to fuck off, or it would disintegrate into an arguement that I would win usually (because I don't back down often), yet come away feeling empty handed, and in a couple of cases... we just came to blows (I am an enneagram 8, after all).
It was only when I realized that although my responses were logical and well constructed counter points to their BS... they were not initially prompted for a logical reason...but in fact an EMOTIONAL reason (someone was being emotionally underhanded or whatever towards me)
The rest was an evolutionary process of discovering how to best respond in a way that I could feel some real sense of resolution after whatever "disagreement" we were having on account of them being emotionally manipulative.
Mind you, I used this only when dealing with actual friends, or family... you know, people that essentially want a good relationship with me. If someone was dealing with a true sociopath of some sort, be them a sadist, a narcissist, pathological liar, or whatever form of sociopathy they have, I don't know how well this alone would hold up... HOWEVER, I believe it would still be very effective if one used it in conjection with a very clear sense of "personal, relational, and ethical boundaries"
I can imagine it getting to the point where they would first attack... then reassert the attack, then try to undermine my communication approach by denigrating it in some way (oh, so now your mr. i can't handle my own feelings so i must burden someone else with them is that it?!)... then finally concede in some token gesture, but very soon after reassert an attack most likely using a different approach (ok, i'm sorry baby, but here is a brand new evening gown like you've always wanted. now why don't you get to the gym so you can remove some of that gross fat on your ass otherwise you will never be good enough for the dress you've always wanted...etc) you know...somethign like this. This would be met again with the same "tell feeling, ask questions" response. At this point, i can imagine them feeling really threatened and most likley would fire back that this type of behavior is hurting them, and its cruel, or whatever... etc. Or they would just push harder as they say your a fat ass....etc, and so on.
Now, this is where the whole "good sense of boundaries" comes in. it would be necessary at that point to say something like:
"I'm sorry you feel this way and that you see what I am doing here as something that hurts you. I feel the same way about what you do. Since this is the case, that we both hurt each other... and I know that I am hurt many times in what should be just casual conversation, I believe we are not going to be able to have any sort of relationship together. You and I are clearly two completely different people, who in spite of our best efforts to communicate with one another, one or the other always ends up feeling hurt. You wouldn't want to cook on a hot stove that suddenly shot fire at you every couple of evenings at random, and neither would I. even if it's just in our heads, fine, it doesn't change the fact that this is how we feel. it may be completely irrational... and in that case all the more reason for us to part ways, as i'm sure neither I nor you want to be with someone so irrational. Even even if you insist you want to help me, and I want to help you, it is very clear that neither of us can... since we can't even communicate to each other without hurting one another, there is no reason to believe any plan of "help" that we try to provide one another with will do anything other than hurt without meaning to. So, since we can't even communicate together in a healthy manner, nor can we provide any guidance or suggestion that also doesn't hurt in some way, then its time we go our seperate ways. goodbye"
don't try to fight emotional weapons with "point, counter point" arguments. that type of "logic and rationality" is in fact not being employed by the other party, therefore, it is IMPOSSIBLE to use this to fight back with. Since they use emotional weapons, one must use those same emotions as a shield.
But, in extreme cases, it will all fail unless it is delivered with a crystal clear, and absolutely unyielding sense of personal, relational, and ethical boundaries. In fact, this is where the TRUE power of "manipulative people" comes from. They are able to find a chink in another persons personal, relational, or ethical boundaries, and they find a way to exploit it.
That's what it is, really. they are such a person to identify exactly what area your boundaries might be weakest at, and then they relentlessly assault this area until they break though, and take over. Think about this... it's incredibly cowardly (picking on the "weakest link"), unbelieveably selfish and immoral, and it's CALCULATED. they had to figure it out how to do it to you, either via observation, or trial and error, or whatever. but they planned it. It is not a mistake, nor did it arise due to "circumstances"... but it's something those types of "people" have deliberately or subconciously tried to engineer in order to make you a tool to service their desires. You know... we used to use a different word for another person that is used as a tool to service someones desires: SLAVE.
a CONSCIOUS, CLEAR understand of your own boundaries, total honesty devoid of ego defending responses, and the ability to listen to your emotions, and communicate on that same plane - emotions, not logic.
If someone has developed those three "attributes", then they will be able to prevent the good relationships in their lives from acting dysfunctionally towards them, as well as be able to identify quickly and truthfully those people who are not willing or able to have a "good relationship" with you so you can move on as soon as this determination is made.
I like to think of it as a very elegant tool. one that exposes the truth from behind the shadow, and in doing so will clearly show both parties involved what is happening, how it is damaging, who is responsible, and how it can be fixed. If it's a genuinely good relationship with a person who is relatively functional, they will see the light for themselves in this process, and actually FIX it themselves for the sake of their relationship with you. (not say "I tried!!" but ACTUALLY stop doing it).
If it's not a good relationship be they sociopathic or just dysfunctional to a degree that is inescapably damaging to those around them, then you will see very quickly that they either can't see the problem, or can't fix the problem.
in either case, the way to "fix it" is to not associate with them. It's pretty simple really. I don't want swim around in toxic waste because I don't want to get physically injured or sick.... and i don't associate with deeply dysfunctional or sociopathic manipulative people because I don't want to get emotionally sick or injured.
And if you find yourself wanting "fix them" or thinking you should "help them" in spite of what has come to light, then you clearly lack the boundaries neccessary to see the distinction for what it is. This strategy won't work for those people. But that's a completely different topic
hope this helps. By the way, if anyone would be willing to share a personal situation that they recently encountered that they think this approach may actually NOT work for... i would be more than willing to "roleplay" it out here. Mostly because I believe it will ALWAYS work, in EVERY situation as a response to prevent manipulation or maniplators from gaining influence over us... but I've only used it in very limited situations. I would like to test it more under a "heavier load" if possible. my reasons are simple - I want to know just how good this really is, and if it has any weaknesses that i haven't thought of
just for anyone who's intersted. besides, it might help that person gain a better understanding of their own situation as well, and how to better deal with it.
-E
Point is, people who manipulate as a hobby or favorite pastime will continue to get away with it until they meet someone who is more manipulative and they get hurt, or until someone who no longer refuses to play along confronts them with it. So, honestly, at that point, if they've gone too far, playing their game maybe the only way they will learn. Unless someone has had to deal with people who are masters at manipulation, they won't understand how messed up it is and what it does to someone. You can't always just walk away.
