[PUG] The Drug Culture

[BenW]

no...this argument is purely circular because there is no REALISTIC solution...while controlling the substances will help, it wont stop...people will still die...There is no solution to this...

There is a very clear solution as far as what legal climate is the safest for drug addicts and the general population; your disagreement with it's implementation doesn't nullify it.

 

[Entyqua]

It's been proven that issuing these drugs on prescription lowers drug addiction and drug related crime rates, what's so hard to understand about that?

tell that to the parents of all the kids here who are addicted to pain pills look it up...Utah is the HIGHEST for prescription drug addiction its a problem! and its causing a great deal of crime here

but again, there is a misunderstanding because I have also said this is a very emotional subject for me...many have had no trouble reading between the lines...

For now...I do not wish to get any more upset but I will agree to disagree with you. forgive my "wording issue" for it is hard to effectively communicate an emotion as strong as this while still trying to give the facts.

 

[DefectiveCreative]

Or they teach you this, in a culture which is still pretty much driven by the drug industry itself.

Or as I like to say, please legalize my right to NOT use drugs. Now, there may be plenty of evidence of how depraved and wasted is the human life WITHOUT drugs, but I'm willing to take my chances.

Not sure what you're saying here, legalising drugs doesn't force you to use them. If you don't want to do them, don't do them. Nobody's holding a gun to your head. However there are people who do want to use them and like someone else said unless all drugs disappear overnight or unless everybody suddenly decides not to do drugs anymore then we're left with the problem of how to minimise the damage they can do. Prohibition has proven itself to make things worse.

no...this argument is purely circular because there is no REALISTIC solution...while controlling the substances will help, it wont stop...people will still die...There is no solution to this...

With al due respect you're being naive in thinking that there's a perfect solution that will end all drug problems, the simple fact is that all we can do is try to minimise the harm that they can bring.

 

[bamf]

It's been proven that issuing these drugs on prescription lowers drug addiction and drug related crime rates, what's so hard to understand about that?

I'm curious as to where this has been proven (I really am).

 

[Entyqua]

There is a very clear solution as far as what legal climate is the safest for drug addicts and the general population; your disagreement with it's implementation doesn't nullify it.

I didnt say it did...i merely stating an opinion...despite attempts...it is proven that when you want it you will get it by any means. while it is the ONLY solution that may stop some problems...there will ALWAYS be drug dealers...that is why i say it is a culture...because it WONT go away!

 

[DefectiveCreative]

tell that to the parents of all the kids here who are addicted to pain pills look it up...Utah is the HIGHEST for prescription drug addiction its a problem! and its causing a great deal of crime here

When I say that it's proven I mean that it full-on scientifically proven, no that it's simply an opinion. Even the UK government (as wilfully idiotic as it is towards the drugs issue) has started making steps to make Heroin available on prescription.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin_assisted_treatment

 

[Entyqua]

Not sure what you're saying here, legalising drugs doesn't force you to use them. If you don't want to do them, don't do them. Nobody's holding a gun to your head. However there are people who do want to use them and like someone else said unless all drugs disappear overnight or unless everybody suddenly decides not to do drugs anymore then we're left with the problem of how to minimise the damage they can do. Prohibition has proven itself to make things worse.

With al due respect you're being naive in thinking that there's a perfect solution that will end all drug problems, the simple fact is that all we can do is try to minimise the harm that they can bring.

No I am not...I know there is NO perfect solution and I have said as much. it doesnt matter what measures are taken to fight this war...it will always be...so you perscribe heroine to an addict...he runs out..guess what there are still dealers out there to get it from just like lortabs!

 

[Entyqua]

When I say that it's proven I mean that it full-on scientifically proven, no that it's simply an opinion. Even the UK government (as wilfully idiotic as it is towards the drugs issue) has started making steps to make Heroin available on prescription.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin_assisted_treatment

perhaps it is true for you where you are...but it is not the case here...Dealers deal in prescriptions here just as much as the illegal stuff..

 

[bamf]

When I say that it's proven I mean that it full-on scientifically proven, no that it's simply an opinion. Even the UK government (as wilfully idiotic as it is towards the drugs issue) has started making steps to make Heroin available on prescription.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin_assisted_treatment

But it's only to people who already use Heroin...It helps those on heroine, but what about those who are still going to try it? I don't see it saying it stems addiction from anyone but those who already are addicted.

 

[enfp can be shy]

Prohibition has proven itself to make things worse.

Sure. Agreed.

But only legalizing won't be enough, on its own. It must be supported by other actions. Addictions have biological cycle of their own - they reproduce, replicate, evolve etc... So there must be some cultural shift too.

I have no trouble with someone well-informed and well-educated, making the choice to use drugs, but that's very very rarely the case; and then addicts also lose ability to control their own decisions and actions, so they spread it to others, without consent etc.

 

[DefectiveCreative]

No I am not...I know there is NO perfect solution and I have said as much. it doesnt matter what measures are taken to fight this war...it will always be...so you perscribe heroine to an addict...he runs out..guess what there are still dealers out there to get it from just like lortabs!

But that's the point, they don't "run out", they are given a heroin prescription for as long as they need it. And by making heroin available legally you cripple the illegal trade in heroin, making it much more difficult for any addict who does want more to get it.

Besides there's no such thing as a perfect system, this system is just exceptionally preferable to anyone who wants to see a decrease in the number of drug addicts.

But it's only to people who already use Heroin...It helps those on heroine, but what about those who are still going to try it? I don't see it saying it stems addiction from anyone but those who already are addicted.

Did you read the part where it points out that the results indicate that making it available on prescription makes it less appealing for potential users and so heroin uptake goes down?

However in Switzerland the incidence of heroin abuse has declined sharply since the introduction of heroin assisted treatment. As a study published in the lancet concluded:


The harm reduction policy of Switzerland and its emphasis on the medicalisation of the heroin problem seems to have contributed to the image of heroin as unattractive for young people."

 

[BenW]

I didnt say it did...i merely stating an opinion...despite attempts...it is proven that when you want it you will get it by any means. while it is the ONLY solution that may stop some problems...there will ALWAYS be drug dealers...that is why i say it is a culture...because it WONT go away!

As stated previously, essentially every society on Earth has found ways to alter their consciousness (sometimes, not always involving drugs).

Pretty expansive "culture", huh?

Sorry for mistaking your intent; I assumed you to be interested in discussion related to solutions, rather than prefer to repeatedly meet logic arguments by pointing out how bad things are, and that they'll never ever be better.
How constructive. -_-
This thread should go very far.

On a tangentially related note, everyone should check this out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibogaine

 

[bamf]

Did you read the part where it points out that the results indicate that making it available on prescription makes it less appealing for potential users and so heroin uptake goes down?

Sorry! Missed that part, while skimming extremely quickly. Thanks.

 

[DefectiveCreative]

But only legalizing won't be enough, on its own. It must be supported by other actions. Addictions have biological cycle of their own - they reproduce, replicate, evolve etc... So there must be some cultural shift too.

Agreed, any legalisation should IMO be backed up by a widespread educational campaign to undo the damage that's been done by the propaganda of Governments, the media and other groups. And it still won't get rid of drug addiction altogether, that's just how it is.

 

[J. Cardigan]

Drugs make me feel good in my no-no zone.

 

[Entyqua]

But that's the point, they don't "run out", they are given a heroin prescription for as long as they need it. And by making heroin available legally you cripple the illegal trade in heroin, making it much more difficult for any addict who does want more to get it.

Besides there's no such thing as a perfect system, this system is just exceptionally preferable to anyone who wants to see a decrease in the number of drug addicts.

sothe heroin user won't have a bad day and decide to have more than his pecribed dosage for today. Like the Lortab user? Or hell the alcoholic. Even better the smoker. If thy are out and the just need a little more to make em feel good again guess what they go buy more smokes, a second bottle of whisky, a few more lortabs, one more hit...and guess what one more hit is all it takes.
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Editn the mobile predictive text n such.

 

[Entyqua]

As stated previously, essentially every society on Earth has found ways to alter their consciousness (sometimes, not always involving drugs).

Pretty expansive "culture", huh?

Sorry for mistaking your intent; I assumed you to be interested in discussion related to solutions, rather than prefer to repeatedly meet logic arguments by pointing out how bad things are, and that they'll never ever be better.
How constructive. -_-
This thread should go very far.

On a tangentially related note, everyone should check this out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibogaine

Cheap shot Ben. But it seems most of you have missed the point of the thread.

I am not seeking a circular argument. The system as it is was my original thought a question most of you refuse to acknowlege too I might add.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[DefectiveCreative]

sothe heroin user won't have a bad day and decide to have more than his pecribed dosage for today. Like the Morgan user? Or hell the alcoholic. Even better the smoker. If thy are out and the just need a little more to make em feel good again guess what they go buy more smokes, a second bottle of whisky, a few more lortabs, one more hit...and guess what one more hit is all it takes.
Posted via Mobile Device

Again, what don't you understand about the fact that this has been proven to reduce drug addiction rates?

Of course there will be those who abuse the system, or who will "fall off the wagon" so to speak, but the simple question is would you rather things remained as they are where addicts have virtually no support? Or would you rather that they can go somewhere to take their drug in a clean & safe environment, where the drug itself is not cut with God knows what and is therefore much safer, and where at the same time as part of the program they receive rehabilitation support?

 

[Crow]

Here we go again...
People who don't know always think they have to do...
The world need changing! ...etc...

No.
We need to change ourselves. One person at a time.
The solution to this, and everything else is:
Consciousness.
To see what is beneficial and what is not.
If our parents and peers are a dysfunctional, rampaging mob,
we are likely to become that way too.
Curing the drug problem is as simple, and boring, and long-term as:
removing any interest in excaping a reality we can not stand being in.

If our own reality was satisfying and engaging, chances are we would not gravitate to drugs in the first place.
The world is not like that.
Nor will it be anytime soon.
But with committment and conviction, each of us - making up the entirety - can make a difference by becoming what we would like to see in the world.

Haha. And I call other people dreamers

 

[J. Cardigan]

I am not seeking a circular argument. The system as it is was my original thought a question most of you refuse to acknowlege too I might add.

I have been directly affected by the "drug culture", and it was implied in my post.

Just because you aren't swaying anyone in their opinion doesn't mean we are ignoring you.