Random Religious Thoughts

QuickTwist said:
Just had a thought about this, but it might be your intensity? Intensity usually drives people away (even if you are not trying to offend anyone). I've had this problem where I will have to have a "difficult conversation," and even though I am as gentle as can possibly be, they end up being super offended by what I am saying (when it really is their fault in the first place).

For me, it seems to be a lot of this:

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I think in my case it wasn’t that either. I know that only because they admitted themselves that they drove out the previous three workers (although not putting it in those words) just said the last three had left however anyone who spends even three days in their presence working there quickly picks up on what the real problem is. They even laughed going over and over about how one of them went to work for their vendor and they were actually going to call this girl at her new job and asked why she had quit to go work for them saying over and over again no way it was because of us. Now mind you they had this conversation amongst themselves for a solid 30 mins with me not saying a single word because I knew good and well it was their own egos not wishing to see what is staring them right in their face. Their problem is they had too much power for way too long and thought they were untouchable because they had learned through trial and error and by making others within that vicinity fear them that they owned that side of the company floor and everyone joins their side behind them if you try to upset the natural pecking order. It’s like high school mean girls but on a company level versus a small town local level so the dynamics involved is insane. They even had the boss eating out of their hands and she was asking them permission instead of the other way around. I’d be interested to see how well that company does in the future versus how much that company held itself back by having people like that working for it shutting down any potential talks for growth, opportunity or any real feedback. Even my HR feedback I was told to provide I was advised by coworkers to lie on. So I did what I could and didn’t make waves for as long as possible until I flat out didn’t care anymore and thought so long ppl and good luck/riddance.
 
Hyacinth said:
I think in my case it wasn’t that either. I know that only because they admitted themselves that they drove out the previous three workers (although not putting it in those words) just said the last three had left however anyone who spends even three days in their presence working there quickly picks up on what the real problem is. They even laughed going over and over about how one of them went to work for their vendor and they were actually going to call this girl at her new job and asked why she had quit to go work for them saying over and over again no way it was because of us. Now mind you they had this conversation amongst themselves for a solid 30 mins with me not saying a single word because I knew good and well it was their own egos not wishing to see what is staring them right in their face. Their problem is they had too much power for way too long and thought they were untouchable because they had learned through trial and error and by making others within that vicinity fear them that they owned that side of the company floor and everyone joins their side behind them if you try to upset the natural pecking order. It’s like high school mean girls but on a company level versus a small town local level so the dynamics involved is insane. They even had the boss eating out of their hands and she was asking them permission instead of the other way around. I’d be interested to see how well that company does in the future versus how much that company held itself back by having people like that working for it shutting down any potential talks for growth, opportunity or any real feedback. Even my HR feedback I was told to provide I was advised by coworkers to lie on. So I did what I could and didn’t make waves for as long as possible until I flat out didn’t care anymore and thought so long ppl and good luck/riddance.
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Some of this reminds me of my mother (ENFJ). She has been forced to quit two careers because of external pressures unrelated to her job performance. I don't know what Enneagram type my mother is, but it's possible she is a 3, so she really wants to do a great job. And then she is not given the recognition she deserves, is taken advantage of, and then people get jealous or whatever, which causes a great rift. Turns out, the people who made my mother's life difficult didn't stay at the company for shallow reasons.
 
QuickTwist said:
Some of this reminds me of my mother (ENFJ). She has been forced to quit two careers because of external pressures unrelated to her job performance. I don't know what Enneagram type my mother is, but it's possible she is a 3, so she really wants to do a great job. And then she is not given the recognition she deserves, is taken advantage of, and then people get jealous or whatever, which causes a great rift. Turns out, the people who made my mother's life difficult didn't stay at the company for shallow reasons.
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No these people aren’t doing so for shallow reasons either. I think in their mindset the stuff they do causes no harm because the people they talk crap about don’t know it, don’t see it, so in their minds it’s ok. I personally can look past most things because I see their strengths as well. They are great at what they do. They care about their jobs, they have a warm heart and friendly dispositions, it’s only when you don’t give them what they want when they want that things start going south. My biggest issue I seem to have in every setting that I am in is being able to see everyone’s strengths as well as their weaknesses as they only look for my weaknesses and none of my strengths so I’m forever stuck in the position where I have to contemplate is it worth it for me to stay here or should I go ahead and go? 9 times out of 10 I’ll just go ahead and leave because I can’t get harmony in a place that doesn’t want me there.
 
QuickTwist said:
@John K, I hope I didn't scare you away! I enjoyed our conversation. Disagreements are going to happen, but I never want disagreements to turn into a thing where the other person puts a wall between me and them. I hope this is not the case for you. You seem to be one of the few strong Christians on this forum, or at least one of the few willing to give your religious takes. Come back! The water is nice!
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Hi QT, no I don’t get driven away by the sort of discussion we had. I don’t get hung up on denominational differences but find them a wonderful way to see familiar points of view from a fresh perspective. Thank you so much for asking.

As a Catholic I didn’t want to break into the discussion you’ve been having with @Hyacinth - I don’t think that singing the merits of the RC world would have been helpful. I’ve only just picked up the thread again since then.

Hyacinth, you are by no means the only person to be hag-ridden by religion in the shape of shackles, and sadly it’s not only Catholics who have done this but other denominations too. Christ himself went to the cross because he challenged the straightjacket the religious authorities of his day placed on their faith. I really feel for INFJ folks born to STJ parents, particularly phobic Enneagram 6 ones. They have no conception of what it’s like to be an intuitive. It sounds like you might be in this situation?
 
QuickTwist said:
Some of this reminds me of my mother (ENFJ). She has been forced to quit two careers because of external pressures unrelated to her job performance. I don't know what Enneagram type my mother is, but it's possible she is a 3, so she really wants to do a great job. And then she is not given the recognition she deserves, is taken advantage of, and then people get jealous or whatever, which causes a great rift. Turns out, the people who made my mother's life difficult didn't stay at the company for shallow reasons.
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But to show you what I mean on the “what they want when they want it point” I was given work when I was right in the middle of doing something I was currently working on and the lady stood over me expecting me to drop everything and do immediately what she shoved in front of me. I smiled took the paper and said thank you, I’ll have it back to you by the end of the day but I need to get this report done so I can’t do this right now and I kid you not she threw an adult live action temper tantrum right there infront of everyone. The shock I experienced at the behavior I got there felt like I was in preschool. I had never before seen adults act like these women acted. It was insane and I cannot make this shit up. That’s how it was daily too. The stress these two girls caused had me having migraines at least twice daily. I had to keep Tylenol in my drawer to grab just to deal with their antics and the migraines they gave me.
 
Hyacinth said:
But to show you what I mean on the “what they want when they want it point” I was given work when I was right in the middle of doing something I was currently working on and the lady stood over me expecting me to drop everything and do immediately what she shoved in front of me. I smiled took the paper and said thank you, I’ll have it back to you by the end of the day but I need to get this report done so I can’t do this right now and I kid you not she threw an adult live action temper tantrum right there infront of everyone. The shock I experienced at the behavior I got there felt like I was in preschool. I had never before seen adults act like these women acted. It was insane and I cannot make this shit up. That’s how it was daily too. The stress these two girls caused had me having migraines at least twice daily. I had to keep Tylenol in my drawer to grab just to deal with their antics and the migraines they gave me.
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Wow. That is extreme...

I honestly don't know how some people live with themselves. Zero self-awareness.
 
QuickTwist said:
That sucks. Sorry, you had to be raised like that.
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I’d love to say it made me a stronger person but no sadly not. I went through a period of five years where I temporarily became them during that time when I was separating from them because it was 40 yrs of hell coming to the forefront so I looked like the narcissist instead of the other way around. That gave them the validation they needed to be able to continue on with their victimization of themselves that they do in their quest to be martyrs and perfect so I played right into their goals. I’m fine now and in a better place mentally but I’ll be honest anyone who has ever known me throughout my life would have recognized the signs that I was having a nervous breakdown at that time and not hold me to it. Considering everything I’ve been through and how far it went, most of my friends say I handled it well because they would’ve long went my “crazy way route” as a teen but instead I held it in for decades instead of rebelling as a teen. My mindset was that with enough love I could change them. Over time in my 40s I learned that I couldn’t and that childhood fantasy was make believe and to start living life as my own. Once I chose myself over them and they saw they were losing control they threw all the hate they could at me to try to reel me back in. Didn’t work but they got the outcome that they hoped for. The black sheep cause and effect where they are still considered the perfect parents because the other two “weaker children” still bow down and worship them afraid of stepping out of line and upsetting them because seeing firsthand what was done to me and not wanting to be their next target, as well as still continuing to being able to pin all the family problems on the black sheep because my siblings have been brainwashed since birth as well to treat me a certain way that that is the whole point of having one within a toxic family dynamic so that everything they hate about themselves can be turned outward onto me versus ever actually self improving or working towards actual real relationship building, emotional connection, and bonding. I wanted emotional connection with my family not robotic performances hence I didn’t belong and was pushed out.
 
Hyacinth said:
I’ve been reading through the threads and I don’t see a single instance that would drive him away. He does only get on here once every three or four days I’m assuming family time so when he pops back on here with more words of wisdom I’m always like yay!! I enjoy his conversations with everyone.
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You are quite right - as I said earlier in my reply to @QuickTwist, I didn't want to carry on a intellectual discussion about the relative merits of Catholicism in the middle of your conversation with him because yours was more important, and it would have been a diversion. I wasn't around as much, and got caught up in some of the other threads too - this one has grown quickly and it's taken me a while to catch up, and even so I've had to skim it a bit.

If you are anything like me, the emotional charge of the sort of problems you describe with other people tend to mask my intuition's grasp of what is going on underneath, and I can't see it clearly. It's worth reflecting on because there are ways of avoiding simple flying back into the same candle flame over and over. The trouble is that they can feel cheaty / dirty, but I found that, for me, that was being over-scrupulous. In any group of folks, like you said, there is a social hierarchy, and it won't always lie congruent with the formal supervisory structure of the group. Now if you were an INTJ you'd do what was both correct and right regardless if it pissed off the social order - in fact some of them actually enjoy doing that. But for me, I found it better to use my Ni/Fe to get a feel for the social flavour, and at first to avoid any value judgements. This could take quite some time - weeks, months even. Then I'd treat the situation like a game - a bit like role playing in a computer game. And I learnt to never, ever, bring any of them inside my inner self like many INFJs do, unless I knew them really well and trusted them - that way I could keep them at arms length. It took me till your sort of age to learn this!

In a new group, I'd play my role as a newcomer, at the bottom of the pecking order, and try and build a good relationship with the alpha members on their own ground. If that meant I had to convert my interactions with them into a different type, then so be it - and you can use the natural grain of the wood in this in your favour, because an INFJ can never outmatch an ESTJ (say) on their own ground, so you will never look like a social threat to them. It's really quite a good game doing this, once you get the hang of it - mind you I'm useless at anything that involves dominant Se's lol. This way you get the respect of one or more alphas, and they then protect you socially and bring you into the group. That's something you can build on, until before long you become an established member. If they are any good, the best of these guys will recognise that your own innate ways are of value to them and you can relax more into INFJ-ism, though never full force of course.

Now there's a separate issue about morality. Every social group of humans brings with it a mixture of good, evil and neither, and there's no way of avoiding this short of being an anchorite. Some situations are so dire that confrontation and withdrawal are the only options, but mostly we have to put up with it and remain on the sidelines until we are more established in the group. If gaining acceptance in the group can only be got by joining in the wrong, then that's the red light for me.

Enough for now - I've got some more thoughts. But are these of any use?
 
John K said:
You are quite right - as I said earlier in my reply to @QuickTwist, I didn't want to carry on a intellectual discussion about the relative merits of Catholicism in the middle of your conversation with him because yours was more important, and it would have been a diversion. I wasn't around as much, and got caught up in some of the other threads too - this one has grown quickly and it's taken me a while to catch up, and even so I've had to skim it a bit.

If you are anything like me, the emotional charge of the sort of problems you describe with other people tend to mask my intuition's grasp of what is going on underneath, and I can't see it clearly. It's worth reflecting on because there are ways of avoiding simple flying back into the same candle flame over and over. The trouble is that they can feel cheaty / dirty, but I found that, for me, that was being over-scrupulous. In any group of folks, like you said, there is a social hierarchy, and it won't always lie congruent with the formal supervisory structure of the group. Now if you were an INTJ you'd do what was both correct and right regardless if it pissed off the social order - in fact some of them actually enjoy doing that. But for me, I found it better to use my Ni/Fe to get a feel for the social flavour, and at first to avoid any value judgements. This could take quite some time - weeks, months even. Then I'd treat the situation like a game - a bit like role playing in a computer game. And I learnt to never, ever, bring any of them inside my inner self like many INFJs do, unless I knew them really well and trusted them - that way I could keep them at arms length. It took me till your sort of age to learn this!

In a new group, I'd play my role as a newcomer, at the bottom of the pecking order, and try and build a good relationship with the alpha members on their own ground. If that meant I had to convert my interactions with them into a different type, then so be it - and you can use the natural grain of the wood in this in your favour, because an INFJ can never outmatch an ESTJ (say) on their own ground, so you will never look like a social threat to them. It's really quite a good game doing this, once you get the hang of it - mind you I'm useless at anything that involves dominant Se's lol. This way you get the respect of one or more alphas, and they then protect you socially and bring you into the group. That's something you can build on, until before long you become an established member. If they are any good, the best of these guys will recognise that your own innate ways are of value to them and you can relax more into INFJ-ism, though never full force of course.

Now there's a separate issue about morality. Every social group of humans brings with it a mixture of good, evil and neither, and there's no way of avoiding this short of being an anchorite. Some situations are so dire that confrontation and withdrawal are the only options, but mostly we have to put up with it and remain on the sidelines until we are more established in the group. If gaining acceptance in the group can only be got by joining in the wrong, then that's the red light for me.

Enough for now - I've got some more thoughts. But are these of any use?
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Yes I think like you were saying in this particular case the situations were so dire that there really wasn’t much I could do except leave. These two cases, this job, and my family, were the only two places that I absolutely had to go. Any other issue I have found can usually can be sorted out since it’s generally light hearted and simply a different way of seeing things so I’ll stop what I’m doing walk over to the person and ask them to explain more. I find ppl naturally open up to me when I flip the script and I ask more questions because it automatically makes them want to become a teacher and most ppl regardless the type loves to feel needed or like they are helping so it goes with their natural nature of trying to be friends with as many people as they can and wanting you to value them. As a newbie at most other companies I do exactly as you describe and have really only had it not work with this particular company. Where I’m at now is fine. I fit in great, there’s no conflict, and it’s with easy going coworkers and bosses so I’m back to my normal alignment. At the bank I was at (my very first job I rose up the ranks extremely quickly because I recognized the social dynamics and had everyone’s respect as I was doing it). At the place I’m at now, I have coworker’s respect so I’m again at a place where they can utilize me with everyone getting along mutually respecting each other. I also think the majority of my issue is that due to wrong advice I didn’t go into the field of study that many empaths go into like my friends, the healthcare field because we love to help people and it goes well with servicing, volunteerism, and making a difference so this has ALOT to do with my experiences as well. Plus it would have been my passion so I would have been feeling like I matter doing it and would be serving the greater good of society better than the actual field that I was forced to go into.
 
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QuickTwist said:
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Honestly I’m so glad that I’m a 2w1s. I actually shudder to think the damage that I could do if I were like the enneagram type 8s that tends to hyperfocus on me. My knowledge, skills, plus research I love doing could REALLY do a person serious harm. Luckily I don’t research a person at all unless I care for them deeply and that’s only to try to figure them out so I can give them exactly what it is that I think that they want so I can make them feel safe in their own environment. I don’t ever do research on the people who’s opinion I could give a crap about because they have no real power over me so I never really see them as a threat and won’t care or ever really look too much in their direction because they are rarely worth the time or effort to me. When they do make my life miserable I simply remove myself and go elsewhere for harmony sake. Not even my own family I took any real time to research or invest too much time learning them or their behaviors because of how little they involved themselves with mine. I simply took the time and space that I should have received from them and applied that time learning about myself and my own wants and needs so I could learn what I needed in my own relationships and friendships in order to finally feel fulfilled in life. I never really projected it outwards except to cry out in pain for a short period of time in my life and that’s only because I had finally reached my breaking point. I’m good now but I’m just thinking how if I truly was an evil person as they pretend me to be how truly scary of a concept that could be if applied irl.
 
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One thing we definitely don't need more of in the world today is hate. We need more love. More kindness. More patience.

People are very messy. Everyone is struggling with something. It's easy to judge. It's better to meet people where they are at. So many people are hurting in the world today. I even see this hurting on this forum. I will not give examples, because I don't want to put people on the spot, but some people have been through tremendous trauma. My heart aches for the pain in the world. I wish I could wave a magic wand and make all the suffering go away. All I can say is that Jesus can heal your pain. Jesus can heal your heart. The Bible says, "Cast your cares upon Jesus, for He cares for you." I have had my own share of failures in my life. I make mistakes every day. However, I have come a long way because of the love of Jesus, inspired by the Holy Spirit, who calls me to something better, something true, and something lasting.
 
When you espouse love, kindness, and patience
And then turn around and put people in an otherness category, while forcing them to adopt your own ideologies
This is the epitome of hypocrisy, and everything that people don't like about religion
 
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