Red Pill Documentary

[acd]

I don't believe that, I think men are pressured into these positions. There are social and most likely evolutionary reasons for this. Blaming women for the consequences of universal suffrage and human evolution isn't logical.That's a pretty safe right that won't go away unless women want it gone. Theoretically, women are half of the electorate. I blame evolution; it's not something that can be fixed.Of course not, male politicians did out of necessity.I'm informing you in advance; this documentary covers sensitive subject matter.

I'm relaxed. Just being a bit sarcastic about some points I've seen here. I've perused the MRA and red pill blogs. I'm familiar with the subject matter.

Also, as a woman, I don't see men as disposable, regardless of what others think evolution may dictate.

*Safe and legal* abortion may very well go away someday if those bent on repealing it are able to stack the courts with ideologues. It's been the law for decades so you'd think that would make it a done deal, but it's not.

I think men typically have gone for more risky positions or high power positions while women seem to go for helping professions due to the culture in these professions and like you said, pressure to pursue these professions. But I think this is changing. More women are entering STEM fields and running for office and joining the military.

 

[invisible]

I was having some difficulty following what she was saying (around 3:55) when she was talking about how in more "backwards" societies, women had severe restrictions upon their agency and freedom in the name of protecting them. My understanding of her counterpoint was that: "While this may be the case, if I were male soldier on the battlefield I might rather be a sexual object than a disposable object." However I think that kind of side-stepped the fact that being prized as a sexual/reproductive object does not equate to such "possessions" being immune from abuse or disposablility should they step out of line.

Don't know why but for some reason this really made me think of Catherine Hamlin's hospital in Ethiopia which was established to treat women (usually very young) who had been ostracised from their communities due to fistula after childbirth.

 

[the]

Just based on some comments, women aren't gutsy enough to run for office or go for positions of power like men, but still women manage to manipulate the system to oppress men... (And yet here in the US we are still, decades later, constantly having to battle to maintain a legal right to abortion.) And it was women who made men disposable, in the first place, right? Did women come up with the draft? Oh I'mma watch it.

wat

 

[acd]

wat

/Takes The Red Pill

 

[the]

/Takes The Red Pill

/Settles for Xanax

 

[invisible]

Abortion may very well go away someday if those bent on repealing it are able to stack the courts with ideologues. It's been the law for decades so you'd think that would make it a done deal, but it's not.

Hey, I definitely agree with this. Access to abortion services is not secure at all. It's highly contested. My mother works in an abortion clinic. Abortion is actually not technically legal where I'm from. Women have to basically declare that they're legally incompetent to take care of a child to get it. Just you know, wow, how humiliating.

 

[Pin]

I'm relaxed. Just being a bit sarcastic about some points I've seen here. I've perused the MRA and red pill blogs. I'm familiar with the subject matter.

Also, as a woman, I don't see men as disposable, regardless of what others think evolution may dictate.

Abortion may very well go away someday if those bent on repealing it are able to stack the courts with ideologues. It's been the law for decades so you'd think that would make it a done deal, but it's not.

I think men typically have gone for more risky positions or high power positions while women seem to go for helping professions due to the culture in these professions and like you said, pressure to pursue these professions. But I think this is changing. More women are entering STEM fields and running for office and joining the military.

The more the USA becomes like Norway, the better.

 

[acd]

The more the USA becomes like Norway, the better.

I agree.

 

[hush]

Hey, I definitely agree with this. Access to abortion services is not secure at all. It's highly contested. My mother works in an abortion clinic. Abortion is actually not technically legal where I'm from. Women have to basically declare that they're legally incompetent to take care of a child to get it. Just you know, wow, how humiliating.

You think that's humiliating? My mom was one of those severe anti-abortion Catholic people. We had old stuff stored in the loft of our barn. I went up there, as a child, and found a giant poster of a fetus' bloody head with its lower jaw completely removed over a petri dish that she used to used to wave in front of clinics that offered abortion options. I can still see the poster clearly in my mind. She used to wave this in front of people's faces, in front of rape victims, in front of women choosing a brighter future for potential offspring. A right to choose? No, look at this, and be ashamed, and hate yourself.

 

[invisible]

You think that's humiliating? My mom was one of those severe anti-abortion Catholic people. We had old stuff stored in the loft of our barn. I went up there, as a child, and found a giant poster of a fetus' bloody head with its lower jaw completely removed over a petri dish that she used to used to wave in front of clinics that offered abortion options. I can still see the poster clearly in my mind. She used to wave this in front of people's faces, in front of rape victims, in front of women choosing a brighter future for potential offspring. A right to choose? No, look at this, and be ashamed, and hate yourself.

Woah, I can't imagine what that experience was like for you in your childhood, I think I would have been very upset by that if it happened to me. Just really saddens me to hear about that happening to you.

My mother gets harassed by these people on her way to work, it was pretty hard at first but I think she just got used to it. She used to yell stuff back at them about how they're horrible people, they aren't allowed to cross into the premises or the facility can get them arrested so my mother used to taunt them. But she just sort of tuned them out after a while I think, cause her work is so busy.

There was agitation here to pass legislation banning protest within a certain distance of these facilities but it didn't go through, but I think they're still working on it.

But yeah. There's constant dissent. So people who want women to have access to abortion, are constantly having to actively defend and protect the access. If people stopped defending the access, it would totally get rescinded. It happened in Poland, it can happen anywhere.

 

[Reason]

I don't really see the practical value or benefit of obligating feminists to disown other feminists. I can see why it might make some men feel better, but I don't see what functional purpose it serves beyond that. I can definitely see how it can muddy the reputation of feminists in general, but I for one still see a distinction between shitty feminists, feminists in general, and feminism. I don't agree that feminists should be obligated to protect men's rights, or that failure to do so somehow reduces the legitimacy of advocating for equal rights for women. Nor would I obligate men's rights advocates to work to protect women's rights in order for their cause to be legitimate. It would be better for everyone, but I don't see it as an obligation essential to legitimacy of seeking equality for a specific group where inequality exists.

I know you don't, but let me take you through this thread. I made the case the feminism may not be the best ideology to apply to solve gender issues and people countered that argument by saying women fight for both men and women so I gave specific examples where they did not address men's rights and slander in particular the documentary dishonestly. Then you say that it's not their job to help men by throwing out these whackos or even that (it seems) it's not their job to help men. It's not that i'm better at debating than you are- you're losing ground because the ideology that you are defending can't hold up to critical thinking at all.

Careful man, it's a slippery slope

Still thinking in terms of 'teams' I see. Very simplistic way of seeing the world, from your point of view I must seem to 'switch sides' between liberal and conservative viewpoints but what you fail to realize is that individualistic thinking means making up your own mind on issues instead of adopting an ideology and putting your brain to sleep. Individualism doesn't seem popular nowadays but I highly recommend it.

And yet, this guy remains, who ushered in our newest president with Nazi salutes.



Does this show where priorities lie? The world is full of shitty people, and they shittily remain. I don't think anyone who is truly reasonable supports extremists like this who persist with hateful agendas. I know I don't, whether it's a shitty feminist, or a shitty white supremacist (although, I consider "shitty" synonymous with white supremacism...). It's almost an insult to the non-shitty feminists (yes, they do exist), to imply that they do.

This is high-grade delusion boiling down to two points:

1. Feminists are better than Donald trump (which would really be a win if that bar were not so pathetically low)

2. It's an insult to good feminists to recognize that the bad ones exist... okay it's an insult to good republicans to recognize that bad ones exist.
Oh that's not fair? You bet it isn't- what you are doing here is reminding me that i'm a liberal and as such I have to fight for the team. Except I don't- I can make up my own mind on individual issues and criticize liberals for being horrible without betraying liberal ideas or going over to the conservative side. In fact when you call out people who agree with you for being shitty it kind of shows that you have this thing called "principles" which might give your words a little weight and deflate the conservative talking point of "you're just a brainwashed liberal".

Also as I said before I have this really annoying tendency for independent rational thought and this bizarre talent for holding ideas in my head of my own making that were not put there by someone else. Which, again, I highly recommend.

 

[Faye]

So we should just neglect the whole topic because there is a sub-reddit filled with enlightened individuals?

I take it you don't think much of these issues, may I ask why?

That is not the case. I do think much of these issues- men's rights issues that is (and women's rights, and gender, and many other things). There are many valid areas of concern for men's rights. However, the point I was going for with sarcasm is that many men's rights groups, such as the Red Pill, are not the ones you want to hitch your wagon to if you want to get there. Red Pill is all about sexism and becoming an "alpha male" so that you can get laid more. If you do not believe me, go there and have a read. I think their current popular thread is about defending the behavior of Aziz Ansari. Many of these groups are heavily sexist to the point that men's rights activist is a term pretty much synonymous with that (and often with homophobia, racism, etc.). They tend to straw-man feminism by reducing it to its most extreme forms (i.e. radical feminists or radfems) as part of their sexism and view that feminism has gotten out of hand. In other words, they view many issues as being men versus women when that is not the case (it is possible for things to change to the benefit of both women and men- and in my view, society would be better off without gender roles period).

If the makers of this documentary really wanted people to take them seriously, they should have named it something, anything, other than the Red Pill. Men's rights organizations need to focus on advocating for men based on discrimination that exists instead of bashing women, feminism, etc. Because currently, they are the male equivalent of radfems. For them, hatred comes first and advocacy comes second. They need to check the hatred and focus on advocacy if they want anyone to listen to them because most people are unwilling to listen in the same way that most people are unwilling to listen to radical feminists.

@Faye for president!

I think shadowy benevolent dictator is more my style.

 

[Reason]

Men's rights organizations need to focus on advocating for men based on discrimination that exists instead of bashing women, feminism, etc.

Except when they try to talk about men's issues, feminists protest them. It's one of the first shots in the documentary for god's sakes- they're having a rally about men's issues and feminist protestors are shouting them down even though what they're talking about has nothing to do with feminism. A number of MRAs both male and female started off as feminists and the moment they made the radical next step to say "hey, men have issues as well- maybe we should address those also" they were virtually excommunicated by feminists- most dramatically in the case of Erin Pizzey who had to flee Britain because of the amount of DEATH THREATS she was receiving from feminists because of the radical belief that women are capable of being abusers as well- not just men.

As she said about the first shelter she ever set up "I bought the bloody building but I can't even set foot in the door because the woman, the feminist who owns the place despises me"

How is anyone supposed to advocate for their cause when they're not allowed to speak?

 

[Reason]

Red Pill is all about sexism and becoming an "alpha male" so that you can get laid more.

I get why sexism is bad, but what's wrong with wanting to get laid more?

 

[Pin]

I get why sexism is bad, but what's wrong with wanting to get laid more?

Bastards and the French disease.

 

[Sloe Djinn]

I know you don't, but let me take you through this thread. I made the case the feminism may not be the best ideology to apply to solve gender issues and people countered that argument by saying women fight for both men and women so I gave specific examples where they did not address men's rights and slander in particular the documentary dishonestly. Then you say that it's not their job to help men by throwing out these whackos or even that (it seems) it's not their job to help men. It's not that i'm better at debating than you are- you're losing ground because the ideology that you are defending can't hold up to critical thinking at all.

Still thinking in terms of 'teams' I see. Very simplistic way of seeing the world, from your point of view I must seem to 'switch sides' between liberal and conservative viewpoints but what you fail to realize is that individualistic thinking means making up your own mind on issues instead of adopting an ideology and putting your brain to sleep. Individualism doesn't seem popular nowadays but I highly recommend it.

Are you sure you're not projecting the team ideology onto me? It's not my concern what people were arguing previously in the thread, and I don't care if I'm losing ground for an assertion that I never made. Why are you lumping me in with them? I'm giving you my thoughts, not theirs.

I'm poking fun at you for continuing to lump all feminists in together which sounds very much like EH hating liberals. How does that make me the one thinking in terms of teams?

Edit: So did we cross that ethereal barrier from discussion into argument somewhere along the way? Because you seem like you're starting to focus more on a win-lose dynamic now.

 

[Reason]

 

[Reason]

Are you sure you're not projecting the team ideology onto me? It's not my concern what people were arguing previously in the thread, and I don't care if I'm losing ground for an assertion that I never made. Why are you lumping me in with them? I'm giving you my thoughts, not theirs.

This has gone on so long I've lost track of who said what, my apologies.

I'm poking fun at you for continuing to lump all feminists in together which sounds very much like EH hating liberals. How does that make me the one thinking in terms of teams?

Saying that feminists don't have to shame or remove shitty members is pretty much putting the team first, or at least that's what it seems like. That's what EH does with trump by the way.

Edit: So did we cross that ethereal barrier from discussion into argument somewhere along the way? Because you seem like you're starting to focus more on a win-lose dynamic now.

More like right/wrong dynamic. Once again though I ascribed you opinions from earlier in this thread that were not yours, that is my mistake.

 

[Faye]

Except when they try to talk about men's issues, feminists protest them. It's one of the first shots in the documentary for god's sakes- they're having a rally about men's issues and feminist protestors are shouting them down even though what they're talking about has nothing to do with feminism. A number of MRAs both male and female started off as feminists and the moment they made the radical next step to say "hey, men have issues as well- maybe we should address those also" they were virtually excommunicated by feminists- most dramatically in the case of Erin Pizzey who had to flee Britain because of the amount of DEATH THREATS she was receiving from feminists because of the radical belief that women are capable of being abusers as well- not just men.

As she said about the first shelter she ever set up "I bought the bloody building but I can't even set foot in the door because the woman, the feminist who owns the place despises me"

How is anyone supposed to advocate for their cause when they're not allowed to speak?

It looks like they were allowed to speak, but that is beside the point. I do not know the circumstances of that rally, but I suspect that it being linked with RedPill is what drew so many protesters (or counter-protesters). Like I said, MRA's have a very bad reputation. What they need is an advocacy organization focused purely on advocacy that does not tolerate hate. As that organization builds a reputation, they may be able to shift perception.

That will not change the attitudes of radicial feminists of course; however, I do not view that as an excuse. Transgender people are extremely hated by radical feminists, to the point we have an acronym for them, TERFs (trans-exclusionary radical feminist). Every trans person knows this acronym and is afraid of being doxxed and harassed by terfs (they do more than death threats to us). We also have a lot of hate in our community and many people to hate (the Republican Party, some LGB organizations that have moved to 'drop the T', everything supportive of cisnormativity in general); however, we do not let that into our advocacy organizations. The National Center for Transgender Equality is not drawn from the hateful recesses of angry bitter trans forums.

The MRA movement has far more people, so why aren't they properly organized? I mean, this looks promising (at least on the surface anyway): http://www.nationalcenterformen.org/ So why wasn't the documentary given a title associating it with this instead of with the Red Pill? It would be like if someone made a trans advocacy documentary something like "Tumblr Speaks: Die Cis Scum". You cannot let dumbasses on the internet define your movement or everyone will hate you and you wont get anywhere. The RedPill is reddit, and reddit is a cesspool.

I get why sexism is bad, but what's wrong with wanting to get laid more?

Because the attitudes that go with it on RedPill generally display a lack of respect for woman as human beings. Take their recent popular thread on Aziz Ansari for instance. They go on and on about how he didn't force her, yada yada. They do not empathize with her or how awful it was for her to be ignored when she says she wants to leave (a.k.a. a deescalation tactic) and have her path to the door blocked repeatedly by Ansari. The whole point of the #metoo movement is to try to get men to empathize with women so that they discontinue this behavior, not to ruin careers or toss everyone in jail. But it is failing miserably in this regard, especially on RedPill. Do you think guys on Redpill advertise the fact to women they want to date? No, and women are generally unhappy to learn that their boyfriend goes on RedPill. These attitudes fuel rape culture (which they would probably fail to acknowledge the existence of).

It should be possible to simultaneously be a MRA and a feminist, but it will only work if people can step back from the bombardment of internet hatred. I know it is difficult, but trans people are doing it. If we can, anyone can (because we have such an incredible amount of hatred aimed at us).

 

[Sloe Djinn]

This has gone on so long I've lost track of who said what, my apologies.

Saying that feminists don't have to shame or remove shitty members is pretty much putting the team first, or at least that's what it seems like. That's what EH does with trump by the way.

More like right/wrong dynamic. Once again though I ascribed you opinions from earlier in this thread that were not yours, that is my mistake.

Oh ok no worries.

About the team mentality, I guess I have an entirely opposite take on that. I think that while denouncing extreme feminists will strengthen the overall image of feminists, failure to do so doesn't merit lumping all feminists together as an enemy of men's rights. Another point that we will probably have to agree to disagree on.

Anyway on my end I'll let it rest there. Wife is all like "you've been on your computer all weekend!" As a man I can't help responding to my biological calling of discussing men's rights vs feminism on the internet for several hours straight instead of engaging with my family. But nope, her needs first of course. Women amirite???