Saved From What?

[SovereignGrace]

These questions are for those who believe they are "saved" by Jesus Christ, and yet deny the doctrine of God's wrath against sinners.

If Christ did not save you from wrath, then:

• What did he save you from?
• And why did he have to die?
• And what makes you any different from a non-believer?

 

[j654dgj7]

These questions are for those who believe they are "saved" by Jesus Christ, and yet deny the doctrine of God's wrath against sinners.

Hey all,

This response isn't meant to engage myself in a long discussion with other believers. I respect and honor your ways of interpreting the religions you choose to believe in. I'm just here to give my two cents as a guy that was baptized into and later confirmed into the Lutheran Church which is the main Christian sect of my home country of Denmark. Here goes.

Here's what I believe. God is a loving God, and it always was. A long time ago it chose an enslaved people in Egypt and helped free them. It required that those people be righteous to guide them into a civilized state that he wished upon all people. When it felt that we were ready, it gave us it's son to help guide all of us to how to properly live our lives. It's son told us that we were all the children of God, we were all sinners and we should all love sinners.

When Jesus died, all sins were deleted along with the concept of sin. He died for our sins to be gone forever. Now his story is available to us, and should be seen as an important piece of information for us on how we should model our lives. We should do our very best (humans aren't perfect) not to judge others and love each other. Even if we mess up, God loves us and will always love us. There's nothing we can do that will make God hate us or want to punish us, because it will get it's way in the end and we will all be good in the end.

If Christ did not save you from wrath, then:

[*]What did he save you from?

Jesus was the walking, talking word of God. He saved me from sin. He canceled the dogmas of the pharisees and made it possible for us to live in the knowing that God loves us all, especially the sinners.

[*]And why did he have to die?

Jesus comes from Yeshua which means "to deliver" or "to save" in Hebrew. He died to save us all from the old dogmas, the old and outdated rules that God had given to the people of Israel. He died to wipe away the sins that we were born with.

[*]And what makes you any different from a non-believer?

I know his love and can use his teachings to bring myself closer to God and Jesus. It's up to us how close or far we want to be to God.

The word "sin" comes from an old Nordic word which today is "synd". We still use that word to describe sin, but also to describe what it originally meant: a lake. When we remove ourselves from God and Jesus, the lake gets wider and when we read and follow the words of Jesus, the lake gets smaller. This all reminds me of a lyric from an old English spiritual Christian song:

The water is wide and I can't cross over
Neither have I wings to fly
Build me a boat that can carry two
And both shall row my love and I

 

[magister343]

God's wrath is not in conflict with his mercy. Righteous anger is an integral part of love. The natural emotional reaction, for either a human or a divinity, to witnessing the destruction of a beloved it to rage against that threat. There can be no anger without caring for someone or something. Sinful Man is self-destructive. The wrath of God does not seek to do us harm, but to stop us from harming our own selves as well as each other.


The word for "save" in Greek or Latin is also as a word for "heal." "Salvation" is literally "making healthy" or "making whole" as just as it is "making secure" or "making safe."

Salvation is not merely removing some external threat (especially not a threat imposed by the same entity that claims to do the saving on those who do not meet arbitrary demands). It is the process of restoring a human being to full health and allowing him to flourish as intended. God does not want any of us to perish, but would like to make us all whole.

We were made to love. The whole of the Torah is but commentary on how to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind and to love your neighbor as yourself.

Acts of sin, or missing the mark, are failures to live up to that purpose for which we were made. These failures are due to moral disease, a sickness of the soul and of the will. We inherit this tendency from our corrupt world before we are born, but a tendency towards sin does not equal any sort of guilt. The disease sin manifests in symptoms of temptations, which cause us to make the wrong choices. The choice to sin does as much injury to the self as to others. It magnifies the underlying condition and make future sins more likely.



You don't cure a sickness merely by destroying a pathogen or cancer. That may be required, but it is even more important to nourish those elements which may be weak but are not yet completely corrupted. Salvation involves cultivating virtue at least as much as exterminating vice. Those who are not suffering from an illness can still work to improve their health, to make themselves more resilient when their health is eventually put at risk.

The concept of sin is not gone. Christian continue to sin, but do not abide in sin. We still sometimes get ill, but there is a difference between being sick unto death and having some setbacks while in remission. The great physician is still sure to heal us eventually.




Saving also entails guarding and preserving, particularly for some higher purpose. Jesus said that he who tries (for his own sake) to save his own soul (this term is Psyche, which is usually translated as Life here but as soul in many other verses) will loose it, but that he who looses for the sake of Christ and the gospel shall guard it for the age. (The term Aion is often translated eternity, but more properly refers to the coming age when the saints will rule on Earth with Christ for a millennium, or the later age when the old heaven and the old earth shall have passed away, and death itself have died, and we shall live together in the presence of God on the New Earth.)

Saving a man involves saving a place for him in the Age to Come, in the Resurrection of the Just, in the Kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of God is within us and without. It is here now and not yet. It has begun in us, but not yet become all in all.

The process of salvation may begin with Christ, and for the individual with the moment when he placed his trust in Christ, but the completion does not come until that day when The Lord returns, when the corruptible shall put on incorruptibility and he mortal put on immortality.




The Death of Christ is less important than His Incarnation or His Resurrection. He died so that those who are in Him may rise again with Him. He is the First-fruits of the resurrection, who allows us to be unified with him, to become like him, and to rise as he did.

 

[Cornerstone]

These questions are for those who believe they are "saved" by Jesus Christ, and yet deny the doctrine of God's wrath against sinners.

If Christ did not save you from wrath, then:

• What did he save you from?
• And why did he have to die?
• And what makes you any different from a non-believer?

I do believe in the first sentence to an extent.

But I don't think it is a clear cut thing. 'Belief', I don't believe, is an intellectual action taken by the rational mind.
It is something deeper and once it is there, it is there to stay. What action you take on account of this belief is individual but I think action cements this belief.
The ideal is to embody this belief about what is right or wrong, to live as close to the example of Jesus, but in your own circumstances.
I don't believe it is a good thing to try and warp your world to enable yourself to live as Jesus did in a totally different society.

a) He didn't automatically save me from anything. He led the way in the sense that, before his example, is was so unlikely as to be impossible in the basic sense of the word.

b) He didn't have to. He had to complete his mission in order not to die. It was his calling and to go against ones' calling is to commit sin. But, in the circumstances, it was inevitable he would be put to death for what he was doing and he accepted that his calling was worth that.

c) On earth, not a lot. I can still be weak and have doubts where my actions and my speech do not match my beliefs. However, I believe that I have a role model and an idea of what humanity is fundamentally capable of even if we lack both the internal and external infrastructure in any practical way at present. Belief that there is more and that it can be done is absolutely vital to living a holy lifestyle. I don't at the moment in many ways but having that point of reference is inexpendable in keeping my spirits up and giving meaning to my life and giving me the ability to do care work which I can say with certainty I would not have been able to do full time before I reached this turning point. In short, I am benefited in the here and now, in every moment, by my belief in Christ.

 

[SovereignGrace]

It is painful to know that people are so lost, and so delusional about their state before God.

The fact is, God is going to punish every last sin, of every last sinner on earth.

And all for whom Christ died had their sins punished in Christ on the cross, as their substitute. So that, all those for whom he died will NOT be punished, because God cannot and will not demand justice for the same sins twice.

Christ SATISFIED justice on behalf of these people, and the rest of humanity is damned.

That is the difference between believers and non-believers: Believers are SAVED, and non-believers are DAMNED.

If you do NOT believe this, you do NOT know the Gospel, and at this point in time, you're NOT SAVED.

You MUST confess you are nothing but sin, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

God alone can give you this faith and repentance. If you ask for it, then you WILL receive it.

But if God let's you die without faith in his Son, you will perish in your sins and go to Hell.

That is the truth, whether you like it or not.

Seek his mercy while there is still time.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

These questions are for those who believe they are "saved" by Jesus Christ, and yet deny the doctrine of God's wrath against sinners.

If Christ did not save you from wrath, then:

• What did he save you from?
• And why did he have to die?
• And what makes you any different from a non-believer?

I think wrath is interchangeable with sin.

To understand salvation there are two things to be held in mind: the salvation from what; and the salvation to what.

The latter - we are saved to what is towards heaven, the vision of God and life everlasting. And since the object, or goal of an action defines that action, the sense of what we are saved from is best defined by what we are saved for: we are saved from never seeing God and everlasting death.

Thus we have the classical definition of Hell: the absence of the vision of God eternally.

So, the word "wrath" may be used in a vague, somewhat exciting way, but in its essence, the wrath of God is identical to sin itself: a definitive turning away from God. Thus, the wrath of God, or the punishment of God is to tolerate and abide with man's turning away from Him.

 

[sprinkles]

It is painful to know that people are so lost, and so delusional about their state before God.

The fact is, God is going to punish every last sin, of every last sinner on earth.

And all for whom Christ died had their sins punished in Christ on the cross, as their substitute. So that, all those for whom he died will NOT be punished, because God cannot and will not demand justice for the same sins twice.

Christ SATISFIED justice on behalf of these people, and the rest of humanity is damned.

That is the difference between believers and non-believers: Believers are SAVED, and non-believers are DAMNED.

If you do NOT believe this, you do NOT know the Gospel, and at this point in time, you're NOT SAVED.

You MUST confess you are nothing but sin, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

God alone can give you this faith and repentance. If you ask for it, then you WILL receive it.

But if God let's you die without faith in his Son, you will perish in your sins and go to Hell.

That is the truth, whether you like it or not.

Seek his mercy while there is still time.

If hell is what I deserve then hell is where I will go.

I cannot accept a proxy for my punishment. To me that concept is immoral and a mockery of justice.

Punishing an innocent in my stead is not acceptable to me, is offensive, and is certainly not perfectly just. If God has a problem with that then God is free to reconsider God's position.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

If hell is what I deserve then hell is where I will go.

I cannot accept a proxy for my punishment. To me that concept is immoral and a mockery of justice.

Punishing an innocent in my stead is not acceptable to me, is offensive, and is certainly not perfectly just. If God has a problem with that then God is free to reconsider God's position.

Of course it is not just for an innocent to suffer on account of another's actions. Nevertheless, when there is no obligation, parents will pay fines incurred by their children voluntarily. And this voluntary paying-of-the-debt involves good faith on the part of the parents, that their voluntary offering will promote greater love and caution in their children.

Christ's suffering and death for us only makes sense, if it is understood that it was done entirely voluntarily out of love, in the good faith that it would be for our benefit.

 

[sprinkles]

Of course it is not just for an innocent to suffer on account of another's actions. Nevertheless, when there is no obligation, parents will pay fines incurred by their children voluntarily. And this voluntary paying-of-the-debt involves good faith on the part of the parents, that their voluntary offering will promote greater love and caution in their children.

Christ's suffering and death for us only makes sense, if it is understood that it was done entirely voluntarily out of love, in the good faith that it would be for our benefit.

Fines are a mockery of justice too. I find those immoral as well. Yes, parents can pay fines but fines shouldn't even be accepted to begin with.

Voluntarily or not, the fact that it was even allowed is problematic for me.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Fines are a mockery of justice too. I find those immoral as well. Yes, parents can pay fines but fines shouldn't even be accepted to begin with.

Voluntarily or not, the fact that it was even allowed is problematic for me.

Don't get me wrong, I hate fines as much as anyone else - I'm a very speedy driver. The whole revenue-raising aspect gets under my skin, especially those bloody hidden and mobile speed cameras. However, there is undeniably a deterrent effect implicit in them as well. Why deter people from speeding on suburban streets? Because it endangers them and others. So when the danger of speeding is not apparent to a driver, at least the danger of arbitrary consequence may be, in effect protecting them from their own actions.

 

[sprinkles]

Don't get me wrong, I hate fines as much as anyone else - I'm a very speedy driver. The whole revenue-raising aspect gets under my skin, especially those bloody hidden and mobile speed cameras. However, there is undeniably a deterrent effect implicit in them as well. Why deter people from speeding on suburban streets? Because it endangers them and others. So when the danger of speeding is not apparent to a driver, at least the danger of arbitrary consequence may be, in effect protecting them from their own actions.

If you have the money then what is the problem?

That is what I find wrong about fines. It's used as a deterrent but it is often an unequal deterrent.

Something like community service should be used instead. And if it's not worth the trouble then either the offense shouldn't be punished, or should cause a mark on your record which will eventually lead up to action being taken, such as community service or jail.

Also if you are speeding then the deterrent clearly does not work for you, does it.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

If you have the money then what is the problem?

That is what I find wrong about fines. It's used as a deterrent but it is often an unequal deterrent.

Something like community service should be used instead. And if it's not worth the trouble then either the offense shouldn't be punished, or should cause a mark on your record which will eventually lead up to action being taken, such as community service or jail.

Also if you are speeding then the deterrent clearly does not work for you, does it.

I agree that the financial aspect is not an equal deterrent in certain respects.

If you don't have much money, then the financial aspect would hurt.
If you have money, but not much time, then the inconvenience - especially the points system and possible loss of license would hurt.
If you have money and lots of time, I suppose you might not be deterred.
If you don't have much money, or time, you should drive an old white Volvo wagon 10km below the speed limit!

I think community service wouldn't deter people who have too much time on their hands.

 

[sprinkles]

I agree that the financial aspect is not an equal deterrent in certain respects.

If you don't have much money, then the financial aspect would hurt.
If you have money, but not much time, then the inconvenience - especially the points system and possible loss of license would hurt.
If you have money and lots of time, I suppose you might not be deterred.
If you don't have much money, or time, you should drive an old white Volvo wagon 10km below the speed limit!

Or maybe just do the right thing regardless of what the law says.

I've never really been deterred. I do what I want and accept the consequences.

I've had near misses with the law doing various things where I could have ended up with real jail time. I stopped because I wanted to, because I felt it was right. Nobody makes me do anything but me.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Or maybe just do the right thing regardless of what the law says.

I've never really been deterred. I do what I want and accept the consequences.

I've had near misses with the law doing various things where I could have ended up with real jail time. I stopped because I wanted to, because I felt it was right. Nobody makes me do anything but me.

Deterrents are only there for those who need deterring. Apparently, the Old Testament Jews needed deterring.

For others there are rewards - either seen as tokens of affection, or as incentives/inducements, depending upon the mind-set of the receiver.

Apparently my insurance company rewards me for my safe driving by charging me less. I wish I would get a gift from the motor registry for being accident-free all these years. In fact, if they offered me a free year of registration for every five years of not speeding, I would probably stop speeding.

 

[sprinkles]

Deterrents are only there for those who need deterring. Apparently, the Old Testament Jews needed deterring.

For others there are rewards - either seen as tokens of affection, or as incentives/inducements, depending upon the mind-set of the receiver.

Apparently my insurance company rewards me for my safe driving by charging me less. I wish I would get a gift from the motor registry for being accident-free all these years. In fact, if they offered me a free year of registration for every five years of not speeding, I would probably stop speeding.

Those who need deterring are cowardly and deserve whatever is coming to them.

A world where deterrent works is a world of would-be criminals who are scared of getting caught.

Imagine a neighbor who won't rob you - not because they feel that robbing is wrong, but because they don't want to go to jail. Implying that if they could get away with it they would do it. Do you want such a neighbor?

Anyway. Apparently we are all wicked and falling short of God's will. I can see that.

What I cannot agree with is that Jesus was a proxy for punishment. That is absurd.

If it were said another way, for example through Jesus you are purified, that would be another story. But that's not what is being said. What is being said is that killing Jesus somehow absolved you of your crimes which I find ridiculous.

Giving up your self is what saves you. Not some "Jesus was punished instead" BS. All your crimes and sins still exist. It is the repentance and change of heart that clears you.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Those who need deterring are cowardly and deserve whatever is coming to them.

A world where deterrent works is a world of would-be criminals who are scared of getting caught.

Imagine a neighbor who won't rob you - not because they feel that robbing is wrong, but because they don't want to go to jail. Implying that if they could get away with it they would do it. Do you want such a neighbor?

Anyway. Apparently we are all wicked and falling short of God's will. I can see that.

What I cannot agree with is that Jesus was a proxy for punishment. That is absurd.

If it were said another way, for example through Jesus you are purified, that would be another story. But that's not what is being said. What is being said is that killing Jesus somehow absolved you of your crimes which I find ridiculous.

Giving up your self is what saves you. Not some "Jesus was punished instead" BS. All your crimes and sins still exist. It is the repentance and change of heart that clears you.

I agree that "Jesus was punished instead" is a smug expression. He was not punished by anyone except those who rejected Him and sought His execution - and by extension, those who even now reject Him. Even in this instance, no one imposed anything on Him, He took it upon Himself out of love. That He died for our sins is not a matter of being punished, but of lifting punishment off those who deserve it and showing this lifting by TAKING it upon Himself.

I have a certain fondness for military imagery at times: If the punishment for desertion of one's post is 20 lashes, a commander in the old days would order the punishment. Of course he could let the soldier, or sailor off. However, such leniency was seldom shown because it undermines the importance of staying at one's post, the force of military law and dissolves military discipline. If, however, a general wished to show the importance of keeping one's post and the importance of military law, as well as his affection for his men, he could let the soldier off and undergo the 20 lashes himself.

Apparently this kind of thing has occurred a couple of times in history - and those commanders were the ones their men would give their lives for... which reminds me of a saying of St Ignatius: "Christ died for love of me. What have I ever done for Christ?"

 

[Barnabas]

Seek his mercy while there is still time.

By your standards we can't seek his mercy, were totally depraved beyond any human attempts of reconciliation. The best we can do under your system is live the best we know how and hope that were one of the specials, realistically you don't even know if your saved, everything your saying could be nothing more then wind and all of your proselytization pointless. You serve a God who may or may not care about your or anyone you know, One who hand picks at random strangers amongst a crowd and holds them up as betters. One who created a world full of fallen creatures doomed from their inception with no hope knowing that when he created them that he would not pick them, before they had spoken their first word or sucked in their first breath they were damned.


But that's an appeal to the heart, let's make an appeal to scripture alone instead it's quite easy to sight John 3:16 "For God so loved the World..." where teh word used in the verse is cosmos meaning everything without exemption.

Or we could make an apeal to the nature of God not ignoring the men and women in the bible God credited as righteous who were not Hebrews his chosen people, Let's not ignore that any man who followed the Law of Moses could ask to take part in Abraham's covenant.


So questions...

Why would he say he loves everyone if he doesn't?

Why would he give a choice to the people who wanted to join in his covenant with Hebrews but not give a choice to Christians and gentiles?

 

[SovereignGrace]

By your standards we can't seek his mercy, were totally depraved beyond any human attempts of reconciliation. The best we can do under your system is live the best we know how and hope that were one of the specials, realistically you don't even know if your saved, everything your saying could be nothing more then wind and all of your proselytization pointless. You serve a God who may or may not care about your or anyone you know, One who hand picks at random strangers amongst a crowd and holds them up as betters. One who created a world full of fallen creatures doomed from their inception with no hope knowing that when he created them that he would not pick them, before they had spoken their first word or sucked in their first breath they were damned.


But that's an appeal to the heart, let's make an appeal to scripture alone instead it's quite easy to sight John 3:16 "For God so loved the World..." where teh word used in the verse is cosmos meaning everything without exemption.

Or we could make an apeal to the nature of God not ignoring the men and women in the bible God credited as righteous who were not Hebrews his chosen people, Let's not ignore that any man who followed the Law of Moses could ask to take part in Abraham's covenant.


So questions...

Why would he say he loves everyone if he doesn't?

Why would he give a choice to the people who wanted to join in his covenant with Hebrews but not give a choice to Christians and gentiles?

Once again, too many issues to address. Allow me to repeat what I said in the other thread:

Oh, man.

I'm sorry, but your understanding of Scripture is very poor. There's just no kinder way to say it.

Just like with your previous post, I don't have time to address all the things in the Scriptures you've misunderstood.

But I don't think you need to learn more. It seems like you need to start with the basics.

In fact, I really believe you ought to question whether you're saved at all. That's my honest concern.

And the fact that you're preaching to people REALLY concerns me.

I hope you can sense my sincerity, but if you don't, it's not really my problem.

I wish you the best, but ultimately, it's all in God's hands.

 

[SovereignGrace]

By your standards we can't seek his mercy,

It's true that if God doesn't draw us to himself, we can't (and won't) seek him.

But that's not MY standard. Christ HIMSELF said that, in John 6:44. Read it for yourself:

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

By your standards we can't seek his mercy,
were totally depraved beyond any human attempts of reconciliation.

That's true. But again, that's not MY standard. it's God's standard. Read Romans 3:10-12 :

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”

The best we can do under your system is live the best we know how and hope that were one of the specials,

Again it's not MY "system." It's Scripture.

Here's just a small sample of verses that prove it:

Ephesians 1:4 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 - But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Romans 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

2 Timothy 1:9 - Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Acts 13:48 - And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

See, you just don't know Scripture. And what you have read, you've not understood.

You don't know God, and you are a false prophet.

Stop pretending that you know him and seek TRUE understanding.

You worship a false Christ. You need the true Christ revealed in Scripture. He can "save to the uttermost those who draw near to God
through him." Hebrews 7:25

He said:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." --John 6:37

I don't have time to address the rest of your post right now. Nor is it as important as the fact that you are lost.

Come to Christ and be saved from your sin.

 

[say what]

Again it's not MY "system." It's Scripture.

It is your system, as not everyone believes in the scripture that you hold your life too.

I think my issue with this entire thread is that you've asked us a question and our opinion, and yet you don't respect the responses that clearly go against your own belief and faith.

These questions are for those who believe they are "saved" by Jesus Christ, and yet deny the doctrine of God's wrath against sinners.

If Christ did not save you from wrath, then:

What did he save you from?
And why did he have to die?
And what makes you any different from a non-believer?

What I don't understand is, if Jesus saved us, then why do we still need saving from sin?