Selfishness or Self Preservation?

slant said:
[

Well, maybe try thinking about it from the "Third perspective" like I am doing. I don't know you guys so all I can do is look at the situation based on facts with no attachment to what the outcome is.

There's no "fair" because there's no right or wrong in this situation.

Two people are married. One person wants to pursue a hobby, and the spouse doesn't want the person to do so because he is afraid of dangers. Some of the dangers may have legitimacy and the person who wants to do the hobby acknowledged them and has a plan to deal with them. The spouse doesn't think this is good enough or that it is safe. The spouse is upset, the person who wants to pursue the hobby feels conflicted about it.

Both perspectives are valid.

You could prepare for potential dangers and it still might be dangerous.

Your husband could be afraid that you'll get hurt and it might be perfectly safe.

All this is, is a disagreement. You both should be able to eventually accept each other's feelings and decisions, whatever they may be. I know it's stressful and you likely are having a lot of conversations in your head about what sort of person this makes you, as the title of this thread mentions "selfish" and so there's some aspect of you that feels you're being selfish, maybe you've been told you're being selfish by someone else.

But there's nothing wrong with you wanting to pursue your hobby.

And there's nothing wrong with your husband being concerned and thinking you shouldn't do it.

This doesn't make you selfish, or your husband overly cautious, it just means you see the situation differently and disagree and you both have that right. The question is how do you both respect each other's feelings while also making the decisions you need to make.
Click to expand...
I really appreciate the things you've said here @slant. I like the simplicity and straightforwardness of your approach, along with the look in from the outside while making room for everyone's point of view. It's very cool as a framework for seeing the problem, and I think solving it becomes easier once each person's deeper, personal needs are factored in.

I'm glad I started this thread because this chance to think out loud and hear other's ideas has been valuable. And I'm feeling grateful for the stuff I've figured out so far. I'm pretty confident that I've pinned down a few things regarding my focus on fairness. The first thing I'm acknowledging is that fairness has been a focus of many of my husbands complaints lately. It's not a word he's used as much as it's been a theme in general. To be clear, he hasn't said that I'm being unfair, but the fact that he feels life is unfair has been expressed in a myriad of ways and I suspect he might be grieving a myriad of things @Cornerstone. The second thing I'm acknowledging is that fairness was an ever present theme when I was young and injured and having surgeries. When my sibling's and friend's lives were impacted to the point that they claimed it was unfair, all they wanted to do was escape the situation. And unfortunately, the adults in my life weren't much better.

Anyway, I'm acknowledging my fear around this subject and the real reason I haven't been able to give myself permission to proceed. And I now have a new focus for conversation with my husband. I really need to understand how fairness factors in for him.
 
Wildfire said:
I was born with a disease that would always complicate my life but it wasn't inevitable that it would become disabling. But while I was still young I was hit by a car and the combination of the two made that outcome more probable. Still, it wasn't until a few years ago that it became official as far as the Social Security Administration was concerned. And then, much more recently, it became very real to me when my lumbar fusion fell apart.

It's probably easiest to just place me in the same category as someone who has suffered a spinal cord injury and know that I had to start using a wheelchair back in January. And the truth is that even though I knew this was likely I'm having a really hard time adjusting, on so many levels.

Anyway, there is one area in particular that I'm trying to figure out how to navigate and I know that talking, or in this case writing about it, might help. At the very least it'll probably help me figure out exactly what I feel, regardless of what you all have to say on the subject, but please do speak your truth. Insight is valuable.

So this is all about the fact that I love to kayak. There really is nothing I love more and no place I'd rather be. No other activity can enliven and anchor me at the same time. It grounds me in nature like nothing else. It's where I feel most alive and most myself. And I'm longing for it now more than ever.

The problem isn't really figuring out how to do it. In truth, kayaks and wheelchairs have a lot in common. And the problem isn't even finding safe places. Flat water lakes abound. The problem is a husband who is freaked out by the idea and I can't seem to punch through the guilt I'm feeling causing him to worry. So I'm stuck until I can navigate that.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Intj problem solving activated.

Get an excessively good life jacket, a waterproof cell phone, which floats, and contact a kayaking club, so you're not out on your own.

Addressing a husband's anxiety, or many male's anxiety is as simple as bullet proofing your own safety. After all, most males are hard wired to protect their spouses from danger... So if you're super safe, he'll be super chill, probably.

As to YOUR feelings, I refer you to the lovely INFJs here.
 
Sometimes Yeah said:
Intj problem solving activated.

Get an excessively good life jacket, a waterproof cell phone, which floats, and contact a kayaking club, so you're not out on your own.

Addressing a husband's anxiety, or many male's anxiety is as simple as bullet proofing your own safety. After all, most males are hard wired to protect their spouses from danger... So if you're super safe, he'll be super chill, probably.

As to YOUR feelings, I refer you to the lovely INFJs here.
Click to expand...
Very wise words. :yum:
 
Wildfire said:
Very wise words. :yum:
Click to expand...
I had an afterthought. I intensely dislike anything which impinges on my independence. Perhaps developing disability is putting you in the same boat (pun intended).

I know and experience the reality that independent action, planning, and thought cannot be had at all times; and practicality sometimes demands prolonged periods of zero independence. A disability might be a quantum leap up in the sense of loss of independence.

What helps me is to have token reminders and experiences of my independence, when the reality is otherwise. For example, being zealous about some small private space, having a pass-time others are not welcome to enquire about or be involved in (even if it's just playing piano), and choosing a few idiosyncratic items when dealing with others (like having an unusual pen, coffee cup, or tie).
 
Perhaps something like the setup below?

Surely flat water, minimising the chance of capsizing, and perhaps having him do it with you would alleviate many concerns ..

kestrel-120-kayak-by-current-designs.jpg
 
Sometimes Yeah said:
I had an afterthought. I intensely dislike anything which impinges on my independence. Perhaps developing disability is putting you in the same boat (pun intended).

I know and experience the reality that independent action, planning, and thought cannot be had at all times; and practicality sometimes demands prolonged periods of zero independence. A disability might be a quantum leap up in the sense of loss of independence.

What helps me is to have token reminders and experiences of my independence, when the reality is otherwise. For example, being zealous about some small private space, having a pass-time others are not welcome to enquire about or be involved in (even if it's just playing piano), and choosing a few idiosyncratic items when dealing with others (like having an unusual pen, coffee cup, or tie).
Click to expand...
I absolutely have the same need to stake out things that are my own. Spaces, thoughts, plans, and actions. All of it. And when I don't I disappear.



JustPhil said:
Perhaps something like the setup below?

Surely flat water, minimising the chance of capsizing, and perhaps having him do it with you would alleviate many concerns ..

kestrel-120-kayak-by-current-designs.jpg
Click to expand...
I've still got great balance right now, but that looks intriguing and invites the idea that I might never have to give it up. :yum:

And I wish he would go with me, but it's really not his thing.
 
That's tough for you both. For obviously different reasons, but I don't think anyone is being selfish here. I hope you can both reach an agreement that you are both happy with. I think a lot of people have offered very helpful ideas and I'd talk to him about those options. You said it's not his thing; he won't go with you-- Has he told you he won't go along? if you haven't already, I'd discuss with him that he should join you.
 
acd said:
That's tough for you both. For obviously different reasons, but I don't think anyone is being selfish here. I hope you can both reach an agreement that you are both happy with. I think a lot of people have offered very helpful ideas and I'd talk to him about those options. You said it's not his thing; he won't go with you-- Has he told you he won't go along? if you haven't already, I'd discuss with him that he should join you.
Click to expand...
doesn't everyone loves a feminist :relaxed: seems so natural
 
Sloe Djinn said:
Bummer, because that sounds like a fantastic way to address his concerns and bond at the same time.
Click to expand...
It really does, doesn’t it? Unfortunately, he’s not very good at meandering. He needs a goal. I wish he liked to fish or something

acd said:
That's tough for you both. For obviously different reasons, but I don't think anyone is being selfish here. I hope you can both reach an agreement that you are both happy with. I think a lot of people have offered very helpful ideas and I'd talk to him about those options. You said it's not his thing; he won't go with you-- Has he told you he won't go along? if you haven't already, I'd discuss with him that he should join you.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it’s been an open invitation for years and he has come with me in the past. He just doesn’t enjoy it the way I do and he’s definitely not going to take it up at a hobby so that he can accompany me every time I want to go out. And I don’t think he should have to. But I do think he should come out with me as many times as it takes for him to get comfortable with the idea that I’ve got this, and I’ve expressed that to him. He’s grumbling, but I think he’ll do it. It’s the grumbling that has me concerned though. There’s a fairness thing going on for him that is as yet undefined.
 
Wildfire said:
He’s grumbling, but I think he’ll do it. It’s the grumbling that has me concerned though. There’s a fairness thing going on for him that is as yet undefined.
Click to expand...

I’m wondering if he feels it’s unfair that he should have to do this, but isn’t realizing that it’s only because his insecurity and difficulty coping with what you are going through is causing him to see you not as an independent adult (in the context of kayaking), but rather as a liability that he has to worry about. Just speculation as a person who is also often preoccupied with “fairness” sometimes to a detrimental extent.
 
Hi @Wildfire

This is tough. <3

I'm guessing he is having a more difficult time with this because January wasn't that long ago and this is still new for him. If you had wheels when you met, he wouldn't bat an eyelash about it. The fact that he doesn't kayak, too, means he isn't out there observing how safe it can be, and he won't be with you. The "unknown" quality makes it scarier.

I was going to suggest adding boat stabilizers, too, not because you need them, but because it may alleviate some of his stress if he knows there is less chance of you tipping. You could also kayak with a group so you're not alone. Or, your first outing could be a short one, and he could come with you and stay on shore while you paddle about to prove that, yes, you can still kayak.

Ultimately, he needs to grow to accept that you need independence. This will probably take a little while and arrive for him in stages.
 
Sloe Djinn said:
I’m wondering if he feels it’s unfair that he should have to do this, but isn’t realizing that it’s only because his insecurity and difficulty coping with what you are going through is causing him to see you not as an independent adult (in the context of kayaking), but rather as a liability that he has to worry about. Just speculation as a person who is also often preoccupied with “fairness” sometimes to a detrimental extent.
Click to expand...
This could easily fit our situation.
 
Asa said:
Hi @Wildfire

This is tough. <3

I'm guessing he is having a more difficult time with this because January wasn't that long ago and this is still new for him. If you had wheels when you met, he wouldn't bat an eyelash about it. The fact that he doesn't kayak, too, means he isn't out there observing how safe it can be, and he won't be with you. The "unknown" quality makes it scarier.

I was going to suggest adding boat stabilizers, too, not because you need them, but because it may alleviate some of his stress if he knows there is less chance of you tipping. You could also kayak with a group so you're not alone. Or, your first outing could be a short one, and he could come with you and stay on shore while you paddle about to prove that, yes, you can still kayak.

Ultimately, he needs to grow to accept that you need independence. This will probably take a little while and arrive for him in stages.
Click to expand...
Thank you @Asa

I think your statement about the "unknown" is very valuable and fits in many ways, because he'll make comments about me doing other things that leave me perplexed and wondering how he sees me doing this but not doing that. So yes, there is a learning curve. But it's also true that he's been around this stuff a lot with our adult son, so I think I was expecting more ease when it comes to prioritizing independence and letting the disabled person lead the way.

Anyway, I want to grant that he might plain and simply feel overwhelmed with EVERYTHING that's going on, because I know I do. But that's one of the reasons why I need to get out on the water.
 
Wildfire said:
Anyway, I want to grant that he might plain and simply feel overwhelmed with EVERYTHING that's going on, because I know I do. But that's one of the reasons why I need to get out on the water.
Click to expand...

Being in your element will help you. It's your favorite activity, but the way you speak of it reminds me of a yogi's practice – the activity that balances you and makes you more who you are. I hope he can compromise and allow this to proceed, at least in steps. At the heart of this, though, is love because he is afraid to lose you.
 
Asa said:
Being in your element will help you. It's your favorite activity, but the way you speak of it reminds me of a yogi's practice – the activity that balances you and makes you more who you are. I hope he can compromise and allow this to proceed, at least in steps. At the heart of this, though, is love because he is afraid to lose you.
Click to expand...
It really is my most valuable form of self care. Nothing else comes close. And I believe you're right about love being at the heart of his resistance.
 
Wildfire said:
I was born with a disease that would always complicate my life but it wasn't inevitable that it would become disabling. But while I was still young I was hit by a car and the combination of the two made that outcome more probable. Still, it wasn't until a few years ago that it became official as far as the Social Security Administration was concerned. And then, much more recently, it became very real to me when my lumbar fusion fell apart.

It's probably easiest to just place me in the same category as someone who has suffered a spinal cord injury and know that I had to start using a wheelchair back in January. And the truth is that even though I knew this was likely I'm having a really hard time adjusting, on so many levels.

Anyway, there is one area in particular that I'm trying to figure out how to navigate and I know that talking, or in this case writing about it, might help. At the very least it'll probably help me figure out exactly what I feel, regardless of what you all have to say on the subject, but please do speak your truth. Insight is valuable.

So this is all about the fact that I love to kayak. There really is nothing I love more and no place I'd rather be. No other activity can enliven and anchor me at the same time. It grounds me in nature like nothing else. It's where I feel most alive and most myself. And I'm longing for it now more than ever.

The problem isn't really figuring out how to do it. In truth, kayaks and wheelchairs have a lot in common. And the problem isn't even finding safe places. Flat water lakes abound. The problem is a husband who is freaked out by the idea and I can't seem to punch through the guilt I'm feeling causing him to worry. So I'm stuck until I can navigate that.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...


I think it could potentially be hard to not let his fear become your own and to separate yours from his. It sounds extremely painful not just physically but emotionally and psychologically for the both of you, but one of those things in which you would have to ask him to consider is how deeply destroyed you feel about not only your condition, but by loosing that part of you and asking him to look into the precautions that can be taken in it. He sounds extremely scared and worried for you. See if there’s anything out there that can assist you to get on the water safely and anything he can do to help you be safe in it too.
 
Get a pontoon type of boat instead of a kayak. You still get to float. Your safer because of the stability. I've seen guys shoot all kinds of rapids on them. Plus if you fall in noself righting. Might be more difficult to get back into. I don't know. Just a suggestion. Take or leave it either way.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top