Spirituality, Atheism, Religion, and Saving the World:

Rift Zone said:
INTJ are a liitle more in your face about things so please forgive the tone... I mean nothing by it here... Believe it or not, that's an effective means of communication for us.
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When, if ever, does knowing your audience become a factor in how you deliver your message?
 
Rift Zone said:
I will defend myself. Don't make me do it. =( Please. I straight told people at the other site:

"Don't mistake kindness for weakness. I'm inherently a savage and I'm just as good at psychological warfare as I am science. Friendly word of advice: Don't fuck with me. I will drag your self worth all up and down this forum if you dont humble yourself in a bit way. You've been trying to get a piece of me. You're about to get one. Peace bro, hug a tree or something."

For those keeping score. I have a gentle disposition unless you attack my character. @say what, I'm sorry for getting snippety with you. Claiming I need to learn something is fine if you can back that up. Leaving that as a given is intolerable. Attack my ideas! INTJs love that. -shows you care! Not kidding about that. But don't attack me. It never goes well for anyone.
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I apologize if you felt I was attacking your intelligence- I wasn't meaning to. My point is that I think you're applying a perspective dervived in hard and physical science, to something that is a social and cultural/psychological construct. Generalization in social sciences is an important issue, and I see you doing that with, what I feel, little considerations to the understandings and limitations of what you're discussing.

Additionally, for me, I require more than just opinion to substantiate an idea. My walls go up when I feel as if someone is trying to beat me over the head with something, without showing the path to how they got to that conclusion. A discussion is about telling a story and building up a solid plot to your conclusions. For me, I feel like you've just jumped to your conclusions, without telling/showing us how you got there.

For me, and this is just me, I don't find this conversation style something I like to engage in. I end up getting frustrated, and feel as though I take in your prospective, and then feed you mine, but then you just say "No." Again, this might just be my style of discussion...I'm more about, 'here are the facts, this is what people have said, this is what I think, make your own conclusion' ...and not about 'this is my opinion, take it'.

I think you have a lot of value and great ideas, but for me, they would increase exponentially for me, if they were substantiated with additionally information.

I also apologize if my purple koolaid comment came across as rude- I was trying to make a funny, and I think it didn't translate from inside my head to the interwebs.
 
Cornerstone said:
When, if ever, does knowing your audience become a factor in how you deliver your message?
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Hmm... Actually, my presentation isn't too diverse... Now that I think about it. That's kinda insightful... Hmm.. Thanks for that! INFJs... any wonder why i love you guys so much. =)
 
say what said:
I apologize if you felt I was attacking your intelligence- I wasn't meaning to. My point is that I think you're applying a perspective dervived in hard and physical science, to something that is a social and cultural/psychological construct. Generalization in social sciences is an important issue, and I see you doing that with, what I feel, little considerations to the understandings and limitations of what you're discussing.
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I'm sorry too... That reflex to defend myself is not my most desirable trait. Sorry again. =(

It's cool. And I have a lot of respect for your perspective, you! I told you I came here to learn from you. I meant that. -All of you.

I have a science geek approach but I assure you I understand all this in the proper context. I know we have a huge disconnect here. We're not really communicating. Lets not make this too complicated.. what do you disagee with? -one topic at a time. I cant weave a web for you in an instant.
 
Rift Zone said:
I cant weave a web for you in an instant.
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The web I'm talking about is "the system". I'm an open book to you all. I will share what I see if you want to hear it. I will explain myself throughly about spirituality and how it applies to saving the world, if you have me walk you through it. I can't just download on you. This world has been given to us through countless religious, governance and business entities all vying for more power. That is the web I speak of. The "system" is a web of disempowerment. How well each of our systems serve us is a topic in of itself. Corporations, governance, agriculture, transportation, natural resources, medicine, infrastructure, representation... The system is a collective of scraping as much out of the populace as they can. This is not a world set up for the contentment or longevity of any species, particularly our own. I'll explain it all. I'm gonna wait for more notoriety before I go full force with this but I'll lay it out for you. Have me walk you through it if you want to know. Your answers will be as specific as your questions.
 
What is new or revolutionary about what you're saying?
 
EVERYBODY IN THIS THREAD NEEDS TO SHUT UP AND HAVE A DRINK.
 
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Cornerstone said:
What is new or revolutionary about what you're saying?
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Atheist spirituality is the key to saving the world because I involves our true nature... This whole thing has a lot to do with humanity embracing it's true identity and moving forward with that. Our identities are necessarily directly tied to spirituality. I love using Carl Sagan an an example here. People loved him so much because he was one of the world's most spiritual men. There's no mistaking the love he had for life, love, sentience, and the universe that granted to us all. That is spirtuality at it's best. Describing that love and why he connected so well with other is new. Giving that love to the world is new. Religion is the foremost authority on teaching hate/racism... -think that's new. Drawing parallels between world view and shape of the world is new... There's a fair amount here.


I haven't said anything about the "system" but a lot of that will be foreign too.


Horatio said:
EVERYBODY IN THIS THREAD NEEDS TO SHUT UP AND HAVE A DRINK.
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That probably is the most enlightened thing that's come out of this thread for far too long... Cheers.
 
Rift Zone said:
This whole thing has a lot to do with humanity embracing it's true identity and moving forward with that.
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Alright, can you elaborate on that some more?

What is our true identity?
 
Cornerstone said:
Alright, can you elaborate on that some more?

What is our true identity?
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Elaborate where? On what, specifically? You gotta help me out here! I'm serious. I read that and had the whole story unfold before me. Again, I'm not gonna be able to download on you -a personal weakness. Make me walk you through it. Anyway, my summary found in the OP is below. Below that is an elaboration on concepts found in the initial post. It gets closer to expalining who/what we are.

Atheist spirituality: you're the coolest thing in the universe: alive, smart, you're an awesome creature. You've been given a gift, a place of honor, use it wisely. Make yourself worthy of the honor you've been given by treating all life, your kin, with dignity and respect. Laugh, play, dance, explore... Enjoy this life, it is precious. Give it your all, it's the only one you got. Grow and learn, you are young, born of the stars, fulfill your destiny with your technology and frolic with them once again. I believe spirituality is the key to saving the world because of these types of teachings. Atheist spirituality teaches the kinship of all species, not just humanity. Its underlying teachings include humanity is gifted and beautiful. That we are capable. That our destiny is bright and our time here is precious. That this is our only home and we should take care of it. That all forms of life have value. That a healthy and happy humanity requires healthy and happy world/ecosystems... Spirituality is the strongest force on this planet. It can, has and does define the past, present and future of our being and domain. No other manifestation can make such an impact on our world because nothing else can inspire us like it can.


I argue humanity extends beyond this geologic era. Humanity isn't defined by Homo Sapien; Homo Sapiens and Homo Sapiens Sapiens are merely steps along our path. The past, present and future of our lineage defines us, not merely our current form. Also mentioned above, our lineage extends all the way back to the origin of life on this planet. We are not alone. Every form of life on this planet shares common ancestry. A significant portion of my spirituality extends from this one fact. All life is kin. My extended family doesn't end with distant cousins I've never met. Nor is it completely contained within humanity. My extended family includes all life on this planet.


Please completely ignore any and all religious/deistic/metaphysical connotations this statement may carry because I'm finding it hard to come up with a more appropriate description: the existence of life on this planet is nothing short of a miracle. Life itself is the most intrinsically valuable form matter can take -we have yet to find anything that remotely compares and getting there is not easily done.. For most of Earth's history, life existed as single celled organisms. A billion years ago, Earth didn't have cool things like bugs and ferns. There were no little critters scurrying around. The complexity of all life found here didn't extend into mulitcellularism in that period. It would take another 400 million years before life here made the leap into multicellularism and that step is not compulsory. It's not hard to imagine multicellularism being just as challenging to achieve as the advent life itself. The fact we've achieved both on this planet makes makes this world one of the most noteworthy locations in the entire universe. Multicellualrism quickly led to profound diversification. This Cambrian Explosion laid the foundations for all sorts of intriguing specimens. Five hundred million years later, we had bugs and ferns and all sorts of critters scurrying about. That history alone endears this planet to me. From life's modest beginnings, this world's family diversified into forms and survival strategies that we may never fully comprehend. I think part of the issue with fully comprehending any species is we must understand their context, how they fit into the ecosystem. Fully understanding any ecosystem it not easily done. However, we can be certain that every species developed partially as a response to interaction with other species.


A wise man recently shared a bit of wisdom from The Bible with me: "As Iron sharpens Iron, so one man sharpens another." Proverbs 27:17 That phenomenon is not limited to iron and men. That aptly applies to species interaction throughout Earth's biologic history. Around 200,000 years ago, modern humans arose. Modern humans, behaviorally, as it's described, were on the scene closer to 50 thousand years ago. We got here partially through genetic directives and survival strategies but all that ultimately points to our interaction with other species. We didn't just happen, we were made -by our kin. On some level, we owe our expression of existence to virtually every other species on this planet.


Now let's talk about spirituality. With a few simple observations we can gain a lot of perspective on where we came from. Subsequently, we can give a lot of context to our identity. Who are you? You're part of a profoundly wonderful and complex legacy that has existed for ages. Your brethren crafted you to be one of the finest specimens in existence today. And we have been there to contribute to making other species develop their potential as well. It is a web of beauty. One of the most beautiful parts of that story is sentience. Sentience is probably inevitable once multicellularism occurs, given enough time and opportunity for diversity. Life has a tendency to build upon existing complexity, data processing is only gonna get better. So, we probably shouldn't be too impressed with dolphins or ourselves, the many of the other animals may not be far behind us. Well, ok, we do have a lot of cause to be pleased with ourselves. After all, we are sentient; and dolphins don't seem to be in a position to develop technology. We are the most gifted species known to exist. We didn't make ourselves so cool, everything else did. My spirituality is deeply engaged with that fact. Like, wow; thank you world! Thank you, Earth. A deep and very special thanks is reserved for all other species, my family... I'm eternally grateful


Religion got something right about spirituality, it does embody itself everywhere. Everything you experience is an expression of humanity, an expression of more distant relatives, or an expression of the universe in which we all live. Everything has spiritual relevance. For me, a backpacking trip is going home; it is heading back into the environment from whence I came. A concert touches my being deeper than merely rock'n out. Look at what we do there! That is human exuberance at some of it's finest. Music is the heart and soul of our species:


“All that mankind has done, thought, gained, or been; it is lying as in magic preservation in the pages of books.” -Thomas Carlyle


That applies equally to music. The essence of our being is expressed in its variety. I'm almost willing to build an argument that it is pure spirituality.


-the endeavor to understand and identify one's self with their origin and relation to the universe. If you want to know who you are, just look around.
 
The internet can be a funny place and it's easy to misread people. For anyone I crossed paths with:

I'm made of love and passion. -Incredible amounts of both. It's unfortunate this is an arena where my passion runs particularly strong. I'm actually pretty chill. I met a few INTJforum members in person last year. Do you know what they had to say about me? "The posture and composure of a yogini with a youthful vibrance and presence." And: "This guy made me rethink my whole idea of introverts. Full of energy and confidence, very sociable." That meet-up was such a great time. I miss all those guys! Any one of the attendees would be able to tell you I have ample amounts of inner peace, joy and happiness. You can't hide body language, my being was there for all to see. I have a warm and gentle disposition. My days are filled with joyous contentment. I love life!

I also kinda, sorta don't take crap from anyone at anytime. More importantly, I don't hold grudges. If we got into it a little in this thread know I harbor no hard feelings toward you. I also apologize for my part in it. I know I have abrasive down to a science and I am quick to dispel threats when I see them. Taking a more enlighten route might have benefitted us all. Anyway, if I clashed with you, know we're at -Zero-, as far as I'm concerned. We'll define our relationship from here.

Have a great day! -Sincerely.
-RZ
 
I've plotted many pertinent points, now let's connect some dots:


World view directly affects our world. That is a causal relationship. World view defines our realm of possibilities. Operating within those possibilities defines our planet. Please feel free to contest this assertion! I'm serious. Make me write it all out and I'll submit it as my doctoral thesis in psychology and we can subvert most of indoctrination before I re-write science. I'm cool with that!


The underlying teachings of religion include: this world is supposed to be fucked up because you are unworthy and need to redeem yourself. You are a subordinate. You are not supposed to question your place in life. You are to submit to authority and quietly whine to yourself if you don't like it. You are supposed to hate others [-thou shall be racist]. You are supposed to deny your inherent being on every level. -sexuality being an example that psychologically breaks people down, destroys their inherent identity and gives them mental issues only religion can fix. Dig back a few pages..... You will find more! I've described exactly what religion is. An honest assessment of my outline will confirm it every time.


The above is the collective world view. The character of this world is a direct reflection of the character of the bible. The Holy Bible and it's abrahamic brethren are books of hate. You hear a little about how god loves you. You hear about how you better, damn well, love your god. Most of that dribble is pestilence, war, rape, murder and everything else that's dark and unworthy. All in all, its not a love story about humanity and existence. It's a depressing look into the darkest age of humanity. -Lots of hate. The Bible is the most vile and depraved thing I've ever read (parts of). It is not a reflection of humanity's true nature. Nor is this planet. This planet is not a reflection of humanity's nature. We're fucked up in a few ways but the vast majority of what we are is beautiful. That is not the world we live in. This is an ugly place and it is precisely the result of Abrahamic religion. -I'll get another Ph.D out of that one if pressed.


Atheist spirituality: you're the coolest thing in the universe: alive, smart, you're an awesome creature. You've been given a gift, a place of honor, use it wisely. Make yourself worthy of the honor you've been given by treating all life, your kin, with dignity and respect. Laugh, play, dance, explore... Enjoy this life, it is precious. Give it your all, it's the only one you got. Grow and learn, you are young, born of the stars, fulfill your destiny with your technology and frolic with them once again. I believe spirituality is the key to saving the world because of these types of teachings. Atheist spirituality teaches the kinship of all species, not just humanity. Its underlying teachings include humanity is gifted and beautiful. That we are capable. That our destiny is bright and our time here is precious. That this is our only home and we should take care of it. That all forms of life have value. That a healthy and happy humanity requires healthy and happy world/ecosystems... Spirituality is the strongest force on this planet. It can, has and does define the past, present and future of our being and domain. No other manifestation can make such an impact on our world because nothing else can inspire us like it can. Moving forward with this is going to be the change in the world we are all hoping for.


Now then... That's a very simple formula! I hereby present logical proof: atheist spirituality will save the world. You have no where else to go. The above is a definitive logical construct. Either refute the premises or you are forced to accept this as fact. The only other way is profound intellectual dishonesty.

"A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths." -Carl Sagan.


My whole argument is singing Sagan's tune. Are you familiar with his warning to the world: Demon Haunted World? He had deep concerns for this planet. Knowing about this work would have given him much hope.


I know wisdom is more easily recognized when it comes from fame. We'll be having this conversation again once I get "Laureate" after my name.
 
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Rift Zone said:
Sorry about that.

No, I'm not inclined to leave the Franciscan denomination alone. To start with, I'd like to repeat a little from above: It is a known scientific fact that religious people do not engage their reason and logic centers of the brain when considering the validity of deity. Religion really does behave like a "mind virus" in that once it takes root, it often takes hold deeply. Religion exists in more primitive areas of the brain that are subject only to instinct. It doesn't matter how irrational or unreasonable one must become to support deity, their more primal being is forced to support deity at all costs else their entire identity collapses.

So, I would never have interest in taking religion from my monk friend. It just doesn't work that way. He would have to want greater understanding in order to find it. But I would tell his spiritual seeking kids all they wanted to know about atheist spirituality. I would defy deity just as strongly with them as I have here with you. The reason why has everything to do with world view. World view sets our limitations, our realm of possibilities. The underlying teachings of religion are crushing to the dreams and aspirations of believers. Religion is a bunch of fluff on the surface but the true reality of it is disempowerment. And it is insidious! Apparently, you're not a good christian unless you recruit/enslave others. When that doesn't work out you're supposed to crucify them... then it went to burn them at the stake, being drowned... The atrocities against atheists over the years were really imaginative. Now they just thumbs down you for no fucking reason! You've come a long way, theists... Just think, you were barbarians mere generations ago! Their violence and fear tactics against outsiders and toward believers are all part of the evil nature of religion. If there ever was a thing that deserved ridicule and disdain it is abrahamic religion.
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I’m sorry, but from my perspective using the argument that “religious people do not engage their reason and logic centers of the brain when considering the validity of deity” is a very weak position. And implying that all attraction to a concept of deity is born solely of fear and encouraged by the primitive brain just doesn’t work either. I agree that it is a scientific fact that we all have a reptilian brain, and that it kicks into action when were threatened, but apart from that your scientific leap demonstrates a lack of understanding that causes me to discount your approach. It is true though that if you had said “some religious people do not engage their reason and logic centers of the brain when considering the validity of their deity” then I would have agreed with you. And I would have followed up by acknowledging that all of us, anytime we experience an episode of cognitive dissonance in any shape or form, have the potential to react in the same way.

At this point I’m saying some of the same things others have said, but in a slightly different way. I believe that your current approach to this highlights your need to better understand the interior sciences and aspects of phenomenology, as well as how it pertains to spirituality and the practice of religion. And I think it would be wise for you to acknowledge that the passion you both prize and possess signifies a strong emotional attachment, and that such a strong emotional attachment can lead to the kind of blindness and irrationality that you’ve stated you want to prevent. I also hope that you’ll consider that both greater understanding about the source of this emotion and the healthiest possible relationship to this emotion, are likely to help equip you for the kind of work you’ve said you want to do. (And no, you’re not let off the hook because you’re an INTJ. The kind of understanding and relationship I just described applies to everyone.)

Anyway, you did ask for opinions, and that’s what I’m giving in this post. These are just a few honest thoughts and I’m sorry if they sound harsh. For the record, I do believe that you’ve glimpsed something valuable, but like I’ve said before, I don’t think you’ve got a big enough or broad enough picture.

I've crossed Ken Wilbur's path before. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with all his works. There does seem to be a fair amount of insight there but our scope is distinct enough to give the impression we're working on entirely different things. I should dig deeper in to that. There is a strong possibility our works could benefit another.
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Like I mentioned, he isn’t the only one to address the topic of the stages of consciousness. But I do suspect that some of his stuff will resonate with you and could prove helpful.

I did try to address your points. My apologies for not doing a very good job of it. I was raised in a Baptist environment. It was in California so it was pretty benign as far as religion goes. My take on the relationship religion has with humanity wasn't born of my personal experience with religion. Those feelings came much later, while I was trying to figure out why this world was so messed up. My views don't involve any particular individual. The relationship I describe is between the whole of humanity and religion.
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I’m very sorry but this statement shows a lack of understanding about the role of your own ongoing phenomenological experience.

Thanks again. I'm humbled and honored.

The Franciscan tradition wasn't religion's idea. Religion damn near killed him. They did take out his makeshift church for the crime of giving a damn about the natural world... All that was born of pure spirituality! Catholicism was forced to adopt those perspectives or face extinction. St Francis knew a lot more about spirituality than the church did. The church adopted those perspectives only for it's own survival. Catholicism was not born of spirituality. It aligns with spirituality only enough to persist its charade.
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I think I really do understand why you’re trying to separate spirituality and religion but you’re not acknowledging the truth in the idea that “whatever is received is received according to the manner of the receiver” which again demonstrates a lack of understanding around concepts of the stages of consciousness.

I don't deny I would benefit from broader understanding. Then again, I feel as though I have a decent amount of understanding as it is.

I aspire to be a spiritual leader. That is one of the motivating factors for me being here. I'm kinda rough around the edges and a more enlightened approach to things would likely serve me well. Just the same, I acknowledge I may never be a worthy spiritual leader. Growing is always an option but we all have our inherent strengths, not sure if spiritual leadership can be among mine. I'm might be better suited as a spiritual leader's thug, intellectually and otherwise.

I will make every effort to answer your questions! If I miss something or you would like some elaboration, please let me know. I will do my very best to satisfy your curiosity.
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I’m very glad to hear that you’re willing to learn. We all need to be, and in the end it will make all the difference.
 
Wildfire said:
I’m sorry, but from my perspective using the argument that “religious people do not engage their reason and logic centers of the brain when considering the validity of deity” is a very weak position. And implying that all attraction to a concept of deity is born solely of fear and encouraged by the primitive brain just doesn’t work either. I agree that it is a scientific fact that we all have a reptilian brain, and that it kicks into action when were threatened, but apart from that your scientific leap demonstrates a lack of understanding that causes me to discount your approach. It is true though that if you had said “some religious people do not engage their reason and logic centers of the brain when considering the validity of their deity” then I would have agreed with you. And I would have followed up by acknowledging that all of us, anytime we experience an episode of cognitive dissonance in any shape or form, have the potential to react in the same way.
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I concede. Characterizing all religious people in this manner is unfair.

Wildfire said:
At this point I’m saying some of the same things others have said, but in a slightly different way. I believe that your current approach to this highlights your need to better understand the interior sciences and aspects of phenomenology, as well as how it pertains to spirituality and the practice of religion. And I think it would be wise for you to acknowledge that the passion you both prize and possess signifies a strong emotional attachment, and that such a strong emotional attachment can lead to the kind of blindness and irrationality that you’ve stated you want to prevent. I also hope that you’ll consider that both greater understanding about the source of this emotion and the healthiest possible relationship to this emotion, are likely to help equip you for the kind of work you’ve said you want to do. (And no, you’re not let off the hook because you’re an INTJ. The kind of understanding and relationship I just described applies to everyone.)
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I do acknowledge the passion I have amounts to emotional attachment. Yes, such attachment can and often does lead people astray and I'm not immune to that. Having said that, my post above this one gives me the impression that my understanding aligns with reality rather well.

I don't speak much about phenomenology because spiritual experiences will come no matter what form of spirituality one has. We'll just make it means different things.
Wildfire said:
Anyway, you did ask for opinions, and that’s what I’m giving in this post. These are just a few honest thoughts and I’m sorry if they sound harsh. For the record, I do believe that you’ve glimpsed something valuable, but like I’ve said before, I don’t think you’ve got a big enough or broad enough picture.
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Thanks. That is a possibility. I do have much to learn about, well, everything. There is also the possibility I'm only focusing on the pertinent parts.

Wildfire said:
Like I mentioned, he isn’t the only one to address the topic of the stages of consciousness. But I do suspect that some of his stuff will resonate with you and could prove helpful.
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There is no doubt. Any legitimate form of wisdom has profound value. I'm not foolish enough to think I'm the only one with a little insight. You guys have inspired me to take a closer look at his work. I do suspect it will prove helpful! -no doubt in my mind

Wildfire said:
I’m very sorry but this statement shows a lack of understanding about the role of your own ongoing phenomenological experience.
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I'm not certain if I agree with that. My spirituality never had anything to do with a church. My spiritual experiences occurred elsewhere. The most applicable phenomenological experiences have more to do with nature, concerts... Even the movie Avatar describes an innate connection of all life <--That played a role. But a church never had access to my being because even at the age of 5~6, I knew they had more sales pitch than reality supporting them.

Wildfire said:
I think I really do understand why you’re trying to separate spirituality and religion but you’re not acknowledging the truth in the idea that “whatever is received is received according to the manner of the receiver” which again demonstrates a lack of understanding around concepts of the stages of consciousness.
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I disagree about that too. If you succeed in isolating spirituality and religion then you know with conviction spirituality is a fundamental and very important part of our being. Religion is an expression of spirituality. Well, atheist spirituality is also an expression of spirituality. They are equally capable to affect the reciever. All stages of consciousness apply equally to both. There is no distinction there. The distinctions exist at a different level.

Wildfire said:
I’m very glad to hear that you’re willing to learn. We all need to be, and in the end it will make all the difference.
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Learning is my identity. I taught myself the vast majority of what I know. I taught myself everything found here. I taught myself science. I may not have a degree of any sort by my knowledge is world class. My dear, I don't lose arguments to Ph.Ds. Any of them!
http://intjforum.com/showthread.php?t=119394&page=5
http://intjforum.com/showthread.php?t=121446&page=2
Proving any of that will more or less amount to proving I know the structure of the universe better than any human. NASA, ESA, JAXA and the meanest pack of post Docs on the planet are incapable of refuting anything I say. I don't seem to have that problem when I attack beliefs held by modern science.

As for spirituality: again my post above this one gives me the impression I know exactly what I'm talking about. There is the slight possibility I'm not the one who needs to learn here.
 
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