The coming storm against INFJ's...

[Shaqie]

The battle of the letters keep on raging on!

 

[muir]

I'm not your monkey. Watch the video and learn my perspective for yourself instead of listening to fools.

So no love for INFJ's then?

The OP is looking more credible by the minute

 

[invisible]

what do you think about our culture...do you think its weighted towards extroverts?

yes it is, for so many reasons, but i dont think that has ever stopped introverts from achieving what they want to.

i also think the dystopian future prophesied in the OP, where some single youtube opinion crank becomes an accepted expert authority, and forces infjs out of public life, is pure persecution delusion, clearly motivated by personal anxieties and resentments, and more than anything, predicated on the infinitesimal probability of MBTI personality theory achieving a sort of global dominance as a defining metric of cultural, political, and economic life. it is a fantasy of persecution that is not situated in reality, and its not worth dignifying with serious treatment. the kindest way i can think of to describe what is happening in the OP is that it is "borrowing trouble".

persecution delusion mongering offends me. it creates a false idea of a sense of victimhood that distracts from readily apprehendable problems in this world. often it even bends the subjectivities of genuine victims to its agenda. it doesnt really care about people and what they truly think or feel or believe or want, all it cares about is its own agenda.

 

[54tjsioU]

Upto a point

It will depend what the dominant culture of the day is

Let's imagine a sci-fi film. In this film some crazy chauvinistic men take control of the government in some dystopian future. They decide that the problem with the world is women. They believe that the clock should be turned back to a time where women did not have a political vote, were the property of their husbands and could not gain employment....they had to be stay at home house wives

So to achieve this oppression of women they made a series of increasingly oppressive reforms to society. First of all they increased the tax bracket for women which drove women out of all the top jobs. Then they reformed marriage and property laws and they removed womens right to vote

With each reform you would find yourself in an increasingly hostile world where it became harder and harder for you to express your natural self and to play to your natural strengths

One day you confide in a man at the dead end job you have ended up in....you whisper to him under your breath: 'i'm being descriminated against here because i'm a woman. The first question on my job application asked what gender i am and on the basis of that they didn't give me the job....they wouldn't even let me come in for the psychometric testing phase'. The man looks at you suprised. He has been conditioned over many years by the media and education system to believe that women are innately inferior and that the reason they don't have good jobs is because they are dumber than men.

He shakes his head dissaprovingly at your comment and says: ''it's your own damn fault you didn't get the job''



lol don't worry on either of those scores...i can handle myself

Even if introverted men have no problem in love....i am more talking about the forces shaping our society in general

Everyone knows that wallstreet is totally corrupt and has crashed the economy. What kind of people do you think populate wallstreet? Do you think there are many INFJ's there? Or do you think there is a culture there that is hostile to INFJ's? And if that's the case do you think that maybe a more diverse culture might be a good thing there as it might act as a check and balance if there are more contemplative, reflective and conscientious people allowed into that environment?

K, just, bare with me here kid. A realistic view, my view, that if you understand your own abilities as an introvert you should stay within those abilities less drive YOURSELF crazy - to your view that because you're an INFJ people fear you and because people fear you -your ideals not mine- because people fear you they will take a scifi novel type resemblance to you and your INFJ kind and out casting you to your own kind of devastation and from there I'm sure the apocalypse happens in this little scenario. K, lets go back to the reality of it, and I'll indulge you a bit too. If people start to fear INFJs so much so that they want to take away their rights, INFJs are leaders, they are leaders because people want to follow them. It's not 'oh I'm a leader because this test says I am' they are leaders because they are charismatic, they understand people and people like them; people want to know more about them and they choose to follow them. So! If some crazy fictional maniac wants to put all the INFJs in the world into an electric pen, INFJs will get followers before anything like that ever happened.

As far as Wallstreet goes, they will just kill you. They are very powerful men who enjoy their power very much and will have absolutely no remorse for killing another human being who threatens their power.

 

[invisible]

additionally, in case my clownish cat post was too obtuse, i want to clarify that persecution mongering like this bothers me because it frightens people with a false sense that the odds are stacked overwhelmingly against them. people need and deserve encouragement to succeed in the worthy dreams that they want to achieve, not this sort of disempowering identification with false victimhood.

 

[LucyJr]

You might be interested in reading this : http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...chology-a-real-science-does-it-really-matter/

Psychology is actually a lot more scientific than the commonly regarded "sciences".

People often see psychology as MBTI, 'Criminal Minds', or other 'profiling' based on a broad array of characteristics...but that's just one portion of a very large field. It's also extremely interdisciplinary, and overlaps with medicine, biology, chemistry, sociology, social work - the list goes on.

Yeah, I know about these kinds of articles. In my opinion, why should I bother to deny what is plain and simple common sense?
No offense, but I can take psychology as a "science", and especialy using the "scientific method". I just can't. Because it isn't. Scientific.

 

[the]

Seriously, MBTI for me is nothing. Is just silly. Socionics is with more weight in it, but its still silly.
Its value for me is just descriptive. It is a observation, and then they writte down the information.
It has not a single value in any scientific and realistic sense. There are just some observation, and even those observations, are not from a objective point, are biased.
As for the extrovertion and introvertion thing, again for me its just a excuse for why groups of people acts in certain ways. What alot of b.s. Beofre these absurd "scientific" theories, people were much more simple and open with eachother.
Now we make arguments of what type is supposed to get with another.

All observations are biased. Why is there no value in observation?

 

[Barnabas]

For the reasons barnabas gave.

I post three well researched extensive comments in the philosophy and religion sub-forum and and all three threads die, I try and smother one flaming thread and the next day it has over one hundred responses.

 

[muir]

yes it is, for so many reasons, but i dont think that has ever stopped introverts from achieving what they want to.

i also think the dystopian future prophesied in the OP, where some single youtube opinion crank becomes an accepted expert authority, and forces infjs out of public life, is pure persecution delusion, clearly motivated by personal anxieties and resentments, and more than anything, predicated on the infinitesimal probability of MBTI personality theory achieving a sort of global dominance as a defining metric of cultural, political, and economic life. it is a fantasy of persecution that is not situated in reality, and its not worth dignifying with serious treatment. the kindest way i can think of to describe what is happening in the OP is that it is "borrowing trouble".

persecution delusion mongering offends me. it creates a false idea of a sense of victimhood that distracts from readily apprehendable problems in this world. often it even bends the subjectivities of genuine victims to its agenda. it doesnt really care about people and what they truly think or feel or believe or want, all it cares about is its own agenda.

How can you say on one hand that you think there is a prejudice against introverts and on the other hand brush it off as 'persecution deluison'?

I don't think it's an insignificant thing at all. I think corporations ARE using psychometric testing to recruit people and i'd say that negative cultures ARE being created in places like wallstreet that are then having massive effects on the rest of society

There was even a hollywood film made recently called 'Divergent' which looks at a dystopian future where humanity is split into 5 factions on the basis of personality types....that's pretty ominous i'd say

Also this argument that the system hasn't stopped introverts from achieving what they want to achieve....i don;t agree with that

I listen to introverted activists who are trying to push back against the system ALL THE TIME. The system most definately IS stopping them from acheiving what they want to achieve

Also the system is changing...its getting worse all the time (see snowdens ongoing revelations) so its not going to get friendlier to INFJ's its going to get more hostile

 

[New Dawn Fades]

So no love for INFJ's then?

The OP is looking more credible by the minute

Sorry, but there is really no need for this. We don't need this kind of approval-seeking. Which correlates with this victimhood mentality stated in the OP, by the way.

Yeah, I know about these kinds of articles. In my opinion, why should I bother to deny what is plain and simple common sense?
No offense, but I can take psychology as a "science", and especialy using the "scientific method". I just can't. Because it isn't. Scientific.

I really don't want to offend you, but why are you being so ignorant? Did you even read this article? Or considered our arguments? "Simple common sense" is exactly the thing that people are claiming when they don't want to face the facts. And you didn't bring any valid argument into this discussion. I'm sorry, but this bothers me.

 

[muir]

K, just, bare with me here kid. A realistic view, my view, that if you understand your own abilities as an introvert you should stay within those abilities less drive YOURSELF crazy

When i was tyring to find various articles online about the 'extrovert ideal' one of the random sites i cam across was a design site. That site was obviously looking at our society through the lens of design...as in designing spaces for living. The article there was making the point that the way our public living spaces are designed are made that way to suit extroverts

That's a pretty random example of what i'm talking about but i think it shows in how many ways the pressure can be upped on certain types

I have spoken about capitalism here a lot and about how i think it degrades people. When i graduated and was thinking about what i want to do for a living i ran through many different possible career options. What i noticed when i looked into various areas was that even jobs that looked like they were good honest jobs on the surface where actually bent out of shape by the system to forward the systems agenda.

One of the key criteria for me in job hunting is that i didn't want to do anything that screwed over other people in any way. When you factor externalities into jobs as well to take into account their direct and indirect affect on the world it actually drastically reduces the number of jobs in a capitalist society that were then suitable.

What i'm saying is that a system that is totally based around PROFIT has a habit of degrading everything else and anyone who engages with it

It's not a system for conscientious people. Now you could look at the figures i posted above about the earnings of different types and you could say ''well the INFJ's aren't doing so great'' but is that because INFJ's aren't smart or is it because INFJ's have taken less well paid jobs in order to live in accordance with their ideals?

So you could judge 'success' in purely monetary terms and say ''INFJ's aren't particularly successful'' or you could apply a whole different criteria to success. You could for example value other things such as: spirituality (how spiritually fulfilled do different types feel?), happiness, health, family life, inner peace, usefulness to society, how much they help other people, how little do they damage the planet etc

If you worked by that different criteria you might suddenly see INFJ's as highly successful people.

But we don't as a society think that way....the dominant culture is a PROFIT based system and that is why we have all the problems we do and the constant war and strife and so on. Our society is riddled with problems...it's not 'successful'

I don't think viewing things this way is 'crazy'...i think putting profit before everything else is crazy

- to your view that because you're an INFJ people fear you and because people fear you -your ideals not mine-

No those are your words not mine. I didn't say people in general would fear INFJ's

I do however think the people who engineer our society are threatened by INFJ's yes....because we don't fit so well into their nice neat tidy boxes. In that film 'divergent' the 'divergent' people are exterminated because they don't fit into any of the 5 narrow factions

People's perceptions ARE shaped by their culture however and if they are told that divergent people are a threat to society then they will end up self policing their fellow citizens

because people fear you they will take a scifi novel type resemblance to you and your INFJ kind and out casting you to your own kind of devastation and from there I'm sure the apocalypse happens in this little scenario. K, lets go back to the reality of it, and I'll indulge you a bit too. If people start to fear INFJs so much so that they want to take away their rights, INFJs are leaders, they are leaders because people want to follow them.

Well.....talking from my own experience INFJ's only step up into a leadership role when people are struggling and directionless...an INFJ will then step up into the void and be accepted in that role. Otherwise they prefer to quietly but steadily work from the sidelines

They are not sharp elbowed

So i think people in general only listen to INFJ's in a leadership role when they are lost and kind of desperate. So look at Ghandi....he was just a lawyer but when the people got desperate enough that the fear of reprisals for their actions was outweighed by their current misery then they developed the political WILL to act and at that point they were willing to listen to an INFJ who knew the lay of the land and was able to eloquently set it out for people

I stepped up into a leadership role in my work place in a crisis even though i was one of the most junior people there. Before that it hadn't even crossed my mind to do that; before that I just quietly and respectfully went about my business. But when the crisis struck everyone was in a lot of fear and distress but no one knew what to do. I had some clear understanding of what was going on and what we could do about it and something inside me pushed me forward at that point when before that my natural instinct was to hang back and let others step forward. I filled the boots when it needed to be done and stepped back again when it was over

It's not 'oh I'm a leader because this test says I am' they are leaders because they are charismatic, they understand people and people like them; people want to know more about them and they choose to follow them. So! If some crazy fictional maniac wants to put all the INFJs in the world into an electric pen, INFJs will get followers before anything like that ever happened.

Most INFJ's aren't trying to take a leadership role...they do it if it needs to be done

The people trying to take leadership roles are the sharp elbowed types who are all confidence and little ability; to see examples of that type watch 'the apprentice' on TV...you'll see lots of people whos confidence outweighs their ability...or to quote a line from one of the cheesiest films ever made: ''their ego's writing checks their body can't cash''

As far as Wallstreet goes, they will just kill you. They are very powerful men who enjoy their power very much and will have absolutely no remorse for killing another human being who threatens their power.

Well we're agreed on that point

But the point i was making is that in our society there are places where decisions are made that have a massive impact on our society. If we want those decisions to be made in a way that is going to be good for society then we need to make sure ALL the personality types are represented in those places

However that's not the case because things like psychometric testing prevent people getting in the door and anyone who can slip through the psychometric testing net will then be destroyed by the culture within that place that has been created to be a toxic environment for some types

See recent film 'the wolf of wallstreet' to get an idea of how a culture can be created in a place

 

[muir]

additionally, in case my clownish cat post was too obtuse, i want to clarify that persecution mongering like this bothers me because it frightens people with a false sense that the odds are stacked overwhelmingly against them. people need and deserve encouragement to succeed in the worthy dreams that they want to achieve, not this sort of disempowering identification with false victimhood.

I'm not encouraging victimhood i'm encouraging knowing the lay of the land so that a person can navigate it better either to avoid pitfalls or to challenge the system

Reading vitcimhood into it is YOUR interpretation

I'm not a victim

 

[muir]

Sorry, but there is really no need for this. We don't need this kind of approval-seeking. Which correlates with this victimhood mentality stated in the OP, by the way.

The OP has said this guy who is posting videos all over the internet is spreading anti-INFJ propaganda

I'm just saying that seeing as the guy is here in this thread he could set the record straight...but he hasn't...which makes the claims of the OP look more credible

 

[New Dawn Fades]

I'm just saying that seeing as the guy is here in this thread he could set the record straight...but he hasn't...which makes the claims of the OP look more credible

I don't see the point of him "declaring INFJ love". That doesn't help in the discussion at all. And you can neither force people to do such a thing nor expect them to.

I don't get why this should make the OP look more credible.

---

And what I wanted to say in general: Yeah, we live in a society that values extraversion and striving for profit... But this doesn't have to mean that we live in a world of monsters who care only about money and possessions. We're all humans, for chrissake. We're still social creatures. Of course we all care a LOT about love and relationships. Maybe not that much at work, but there is more to life.

 

[Cornerstone]

The OP has said this guy who is posting videos all over the internet is spreading anti-INFJ propaganda

I'm just saying that seeing as the guy is here in this thread he could set the record straight...but he hasn't...which makes the claims of the OP look more credible

Whilst I don't disagree with what you're saying in general, in the thread by this guy you linked to, he does say that he isn't trying to bash INFJs and says more about it. That being said, I haven't watched the video that he feels the need to qualify with that statement.

 

[muir]

I don't see the point of him "declaring INFJ love". That doesn't help in the discussion at all. And you can neither force people to do such a thing nor expect them to.

I'm not 'forcing' him to do anything...i invited him to

I don't get why this should make the OP look more credible.

The OP has said this guy expresses hate towards INFJ's.....if he doesn't express any love for INFJ's on the INFJ forum of all places then it suggests that what the OP is saying might be correct

But look i don't want to go on about djarendee.....as he has said watch his videos and then make your mind up...and that's fair enough

I personally HAVE watched some of his videos. I then pointed out to him what were some errors as i saw it. I was no the only person to do that on the thread. Annoyingly i cannot find that thread....possbily becase it wasn't started by djarendee or because it has been deleted on request...but i'm telling you there has been a debate along these lines here already

And what I wanted to say in general: Yeah, we live in a society that values extraversion and striving for profit... But this doesn't have to mean that we live in a world of monsters who care only about money and possessions. We're all humans, for chrissake. We're still social creatures. Of course we all care a LOT about love and relationships. Maybe not that much at work, but there is more to life.

Well that's exactly what is behind my message: ''there's more to life''

if you want to see however quite how moulded our society is and what sort of role psychiatry and psychology have played i strongly recommend the documentary ''the century of the self''

This documentary will show you evidence that will put everything i'm saying on very strong foundations of reality

 

[muir]

Whilst I don't disagree with what you're saying in general, in the thread by this guy you linked to, he does say that he isn't trying to bash INFJs and says more about it. That being said, I haven't watched the video that he feels the need to qualify with that statement.

I can't find the thread in which he was saying things about INFJ's that myself and some others didn't agree to which was made BEFORE the thread you are talking about

It is quite possible that it has been erased from the record.....capiche?

 

[LucyJr]

All observations are biased. Why is there no value in observation?

Because observation usualy follows a casual chain. In psychology you can't do that. In psychology you can guess abd suppose, and that's exactly what they are doing. Oh, and psychiatry also.

 

[LucyJr]

I really don't want to offend you, but why are you being so ignorant? Did you even read this article? Or considered our arguments? "Simple common sense" is exactly the thing that people are claiming when they don't want to face the facts. And you didn't bring any valid argument into this discussion. I'm sorry, but this bothers me.

Well some thing don't even need argumentation...althought I can give you some arguments, but I don't want to.

 

[New Dawn Fades]

Because observation usualy follows a casual chain. In psychology you can't do that. In psychology you can guess abd suppose, and that's exactly what they are doing. Oh, and psychiatry also.

No, psychiatrists aren't just guessing. There are certain things in the human body that you can measure (hormons, neurotransmitters) which cause or at least contribute to certain illnesses. And there is medicine to help people with psychological diseases. Though it doesn't help 100% of them, it does help in the majority of cases. It's the same thing as medicine. Don't tell me that its not scientific. Some part of psychology and psychiatry may be pseudo-scientific, yes. But you just can't say that it's not scientific in general.
Psychology works in so many cases - to mention an example, mass behavior. Because psychologists can predict mass behavior, they are able to prevent that in concerts or other mass events, people are being stamped down. This works, obviously.