The Minimal Facts for the Resurrection of Christ.

Nothing uniformed about it.
No, it is 100% uninformed, because you didn’t ask me anything. You had no way to know before projecting onto me as if I were less than.

That’s fine. Make any claim you like. You are entirely entitled to your opinion.

Cheers,
Ian
 
No, it is 100% uninformed, because you didn’t ask me anything. You had no way to know before projecting onto me as if I were less than.

That’s fine. Make any claim you like. You are entirely entitled to your opinion.

Cheers,
Ian

Alright...

It does not take a genius to see what you think, but I will ask a question:

Do you think the past can be known?
 
Do you think the past can be known?
First, we would need to know what is the past. Is it real?

The past is a perception of temporal space born of duality consciousness.

In a uni-verse, there is only the now. Is-ness. Be-ing.

I will entertain your question.

No, I do not think the past can be known, because I think the idea of a past is an illusion.

But even within that illusion of duality, I do not think the past can be known, inasmuch as it cannot be (re)experienced.

Given the variability of human memory, and the filtered nature of the human record, and its variance, I do believe the past can be understood. An interpretation can be made, and an opinion can be arrived upon which may be called, and so judged, as understanding.

But knowing? In the gnostic—or otherwise—sense? No. The very idea seems ludicrous to me.

We have memory, and we have record. We claim to understand those things, and refer to them in terms of a past.

I make no claim, as I do not know, and I am necessarily tiny in my being, so even a claim of understanding in this regard, would be, to me, arrogant.

So that’s my opinion, and how I see, or consider things, and at market prices, worth about 2¢.

Cheers,
Ian
 
First, we would need to know what is the past. Is it real?

The past is a perception of temporal space born of duality consciousness.

In a uni-verse, there is only the now. Is-ness. Be-ing.

I will entertain your question.

No, I do not think the past can be known, because I think the idea of a past is an illusion.

But even within that illusion of duality, I do not think the past can be known, inasmuch as it cannot be (re)experienced.

Given the variability of human memory, and the filtered nature of the human record, and its variance, I do believe the past can be understood. An interpretation can be made, and an opinion can be arrived upon which may be called, and so judged, as understanding.

But knowing? In the gnostic—or otherwise—sense? No. The very idea seems ludicrous to me.

We have memory, and we have record. We claim to understand those things, and refer to them in terms of a past.

I make no claim, as I do not know, and I am necessarily tiny in my being, so even a claim of understanding in this regard, would be, to me, arrogant.

So that’s my opinion, and how I see, or consider things, and at market prices, worth about 2¢.

Cheers,
Ian

Okay, so, how was my initial statement to you about the philosophy of history wrong?
 
Okay, so, how was my initial statement to you about the philosophy of history wrong?
It was wrong because you did not inquire, yet made an assumption.

You put the cart before the horse.

Not that I think this thread was meant to be a dialectic exercise.

Cheers,
Ian
 
Your version of the philosophy of history lost.
He is correct that there is insufficient evidence to consider the resurrection a proven thing.

I want to take a minute to summarize a few things, and then I'm going to back out of further conversations where things like proof texting are used. As I've said, I'm simply not on that part of the journey any longer.

1. The passages that Christians see as trump cards, such as Isaiah 53, Psalm 22, Psalm 100, etc., really aren't. They aren't because we do not view them as Messianic prophecies. They are about the People of Israel as a whole or other individuals such as David or Hezekiah, and we believe that Christians are yanking them out of context in order to find Jesus in places where he really isn't.

If you ever get the inclination to wrestle with this, your best source to go to is Rabbi Tovia Singer, a wonderful stage two person such as yourself, which means he will speak in a way that you will be able to relate to, although you will very likely disagree with him. I'm not referring you to him because I think he will change your mind, but so that you can become aware that there are alternative views of your "trump cards." I also need to mention that Tovia Singer's videos (you can find them all on YouTube or at Outreach Judaism) are not meant to convert Christians such as yourself, but to reach out to JEWS who are involved with Christianity.

2. As I've said before, Jews have an entirely different paradigm. You are used to thinking within the framework that people are fallen, and that sin requires blood for atonement, and that Jesus is the savior that we all need. None of those ideas exist within Judaism. Where Christianity says, "You are broken, Jesus will save you," Judaism says, "The world is broken, it's your responsibility to fix it."

A. We do not see human beings as fallen. Rather we see human beings as having a dual nature: a yetzer hatov (inclination to good, IOW our conscience) and a yetzer hara (inclination to evil, aka our animals instincts). Even our yetzer hara is not truly evil--without our animal instincts people would stop having babies, for example. These instincts only become a problem when they conflict with our conscience.

B. The idea that only blood atones is contained only in the New Testament (book of Hebrews), not in the Torah. The Torah is quite clear that grain offerings atone. It is also a significant point to mention that atonement is only for unintentional sins. Intentional sins may not be atoned for--they must be repented of. The Tanakh ALSO makes it quite clear that it's NOT all about sacrifice at all!!!! It's about repentance. Psalm 51
18For You do not wish a sacrifice, or I should give it; You do not desire a burnt offering.
19The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; O God, You will not despise a broken and crushed heart.

C. We do not see any need for a spiritual savior. If we stumble, we repent. Ta Dah. That's its. You go to the person you harmed and do the best you can to make it right. Then you examine yourself to uncover why you sinned in the first place, and make whatever changes you need to make so that it doesn't happen again. There is no need for any middleman to mediate--we can go directly to God. Repentance restores you to righteousness. "The righteous man stumbles seven times, and rises up again." Proverbs 24:16

If you need help understanding that Jewish worldview, I'm more than happy to clarify as needed. However, I won't be joining in for any further debates about "This verse say this and that verse says that." For that I leave you in the wonderful hands of Tovia Singer. Oh, and in addition to his videos, he has also published a great double volume set called "Let's Get Biblical." It is really ideal for all stage two individuals such as yourself.
 
It was wrong because you did not inquire, yet made an assumption.

You put the cart before the horse.

Not that I think this thread was meant to be a dialectic exercise.

Cheers,
Ian

Thing is, it wasn't wrong. I read what you said the first time. When I asked my question to you, it only confirmed it.

There are different schools of thought, not an infinite amount of schools of thought. Because you think I need to ask does not mean I don't know anything about you position already. After all, you progressives probably agree on about 95% of stuff anyways.

Further, you can't say I was wrong because that would mean you know something about our prior conversation, which is in the past.
 
Right... I think the righteous remnant would disagree.
I think our understanding of the "righteous remnant" differs significantly.
Okay, so, not that long. Don't know why you have this beef with MJ when your tradition of Judaism isn't even as old or well established.
No, as I said, my Judaism goes back to Abraham. I'm not sure how you missed that--I even put it in bold text. :)

MJ has existed since the 1970s. It has always been a branch of Christianity, and never a part of Judaism.
 
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Never made that claim. History is judged based on probability. Much of human knowledge is. We have a shockingly small amount of thing we could say we have "proof" for.

Rabbi Tovia Singer

I'm sorry, but I LOL'd

I'm not referring you to him

You literally just did...

are not meant to convert Christians such as yourself

What is his purpose then? You want to claim Chosen People Ministries tries to rob Jews of their heritage... and then you say this? You are not using even scales.

We do not see human beings as fallen.

That's one of the first things I told you you believe and you disagreed...
 
You literally just did...
No, you just yanked half of my remark away from its context. Go back and read what I said again, without dividing my sentence in half.
What is his purpose then?
As I already said, to reach out to JEWS involved in Christianity.
You want to claim Chosen People Ministries tries to rob Jews of their heritage... and then you say this? You are not using even scales.
I'm very confused by your response. My statement was that he is not trying to convert you to Judaism. How is this "not using even scales"? I very explicitly stated that this was not an attempt to change your mind, but only to make you aware of other ways of interpreting your proof texts. I'm completely uninterested in converting you to Judaism. You are quite fine just as you presently are.
That's one of the first things I told you you believe and you disagreed...
We seem to be having a lot of misunderstandings. They may not all be caused by the same thing, but a pattern is forming that you are not reading my remarks carefully.
 
No, you just yanked half of my remark away from its context. Go back and read what I said again, without dividing my sentence in half.

If you ever get the inclination to wrestle with this, your best source to go to is Rabbi Tovia Singer

That's an invitation to investigate further.

As I already said, to reach out to JEWS involved in Christianity.

So... He doesn't PRIMARILY speak to Messianic Gentiles?

I'm very confused by your response. My statement was that he is not trying to convert you to Judaism. How is this "not using even scales"?

Right, because you think Tovia is unbiased because you are just as against MJ as he is. Dr. Brown puts this guy to shame. Tovia a liar, as far as I am concerned.

We seem to be having a lot of misunderstandings. They may not all be caused by the same thing, but a pattern is forming that you are not reading my remarks carefully.

Do the words, "Not that bad" ring any bells?
 
Thing is, it wasn't wrong. I read what you said the first time. When I asked my question to you, it only confirmed it.
But this assumes I believe something.

You did not ask, but assumed I did, and the nature of it.

So doubly wrong. First, in premise. Second in conclusion.

I’m giving you this feedback to let you know you were wrong, and why.

But as always, believe what you like. You are always entitled to your opinion, and the narrative you create for yourself.

That said, you cannot serve two masters. If you say you are interested in facts, let not your inquiry be selective, especially as driven by a decided agenda.

Cheers,
Ian
 
That's an invitation to investigate further.
Actually no. I offered a resource in case YOU ever decided to wrestle with these things. I didn't recommend wrestling with them, or even invite you to wrestle with them. The ball is 100% in your court,.
So... He doesn't PRIMARILY speak to Messianic Gentiles?
He doesn't even SECONDARILY speak to Messianic Gentiles.
Right, because you think Tovia is unbiased
No one is unbiased. Not me. Not you. Not Tovia Singer. Not Dr. Brown. If you think I hold a specific position, such as "Tovia Singer is unbiased" it is probably a good idea to double check. You have mistakenly jumped to conclusions about me on more than one occasion. Just ask. I'm an open book.
Do the words, "Not that bad" ring any bells?
No. This is the second time you have brought that up, and the second time I'm telling you I have no idea what you are talking about.

PLEASE, slow down and read my posts more carefully, and think for a moment before you reply.
 
After all, you progressives probably agree on about 95% of stuff anyways.
Haha, you really are running fast and loose. You think I am a progressive. That’s rich!

Wow,
Ian
 
Further, you can't say I was wrong because that would mean you know something about our prior conversation, which is in the past.
Wrong by default, in approach. The content is irrelevant.

But again, believe what you like. It is seemingly of whim and arbitrary to you.

Cheers,
Ian
 
Actually no. I offered a resource in case YOU ever decided to wrestle with these things. I didn't recommend wrestling with them, or even invite you to wrestle with them. The ball is 100% in your court,

If I were to offer you information about looking more into coming back to Christianity (which, we already had that experiment), would you consider that an invitation?

He doesn't even SECONDARILY speak to Messianic Gentiles.

Then why does he "speak in a language I can understand"?

No one is unbiased. Not me. Not you. Not Tovia Singer. Not Dr. Brown. If you think I hold a specific position, such as "Tovia Singer is unbiased" it is probably a good idea to double check. You have mistakenly jumped to conclusions about me on more than one occasion. Just ask. I'm an open book.

Fair enough.

No. This is the second time you have brought that up, and the second time I'm telling you I have no idea what you are talking about.

It was when we were talking about what is different in Judaism, I said that Judaism makes humans out to be "not that bad." I gave examples... "I don't murder, I follow the Law, I don't do anything that bad." You said I was wrong. Rather, you said, "I don't remember using those words." The concept is the exact same.

Not fallen = Not that bad
 
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