The Minimal Facts for the Resurrection of Christ.

Here is a video about non-supernatural explanations


Okay, how does that answer my question to you AT ALL? I said they reported TRUE things MILES away that they had no way of knowing... That's the question...


Assertions from a naturalistic PoV with no evidence but just talking points that sound good.
 
People have their presuppositions that automatically rule out certain things even if the evidence for those things is very strong.

Pot calling the kettle black there rofl
 
That's fine. Everyone loves a message that we all walk a different path to God...

The thing is, there is no salvation except by one name. That name is Jesus Christ, Yeshua Ha'Mashiach, both the Jewish Messiah and the Savior of the World. There is no salvation outside of this Jesus who came to wipe away our sins.

Jesus is either who He said he was or he isn't. He either rose from the dead or He didn't.

Truth in this Western culture has become relativistic. It's become a matter of opinion. "True for you, but not for me." That is fallacious thinking. The Truth is true whether everyone or no one believes it.
But isn't it inevitable that we all walk a different path to God? We are all born in different ages of the world, with different world views, into different circumstances and experiences, and with different capacities. Even in my own Catholic tradition with its pretty tightly controlled dogma, the ordinary people all have very different images and understanding of who or what God is and how to reach Him. The field is even wider in the Protestant communities, because they range more widely in their beliefs as well as there being differences in what people understand by those beliefs.

Those of us who seek God are like people climbing a mountain - there are different routes up it, some easier and some harder .... and some routes go only part way up. But as you get to the top these routes all converge, and they converge on that Person of God that relates to human beings. It matters little that folks may well have different concepts or names for Him - and indeed it is impossible to encase Him in human concepts. Even the most orthodox Christian will find that God is not what they expected, but far, far more. Some of us will have walked with Him all the way up, but some will only meet Him at the top. Certainly, introduce Him to folks we meet at the bottom, or on the way up, but we have to bear in mind not just the path we are on ourselves but understand that the path many are on has not been the same as ours to that point and it may not be as simple as jumping from one route to another. In any case, I am quite capable of following my own route badly with a map I've misread and leading others astray because of my own limitations.

I guess my feeling is that if I see folks going up rather than downhill, then they are getting closer and closer to Him and that is good - they may well express that very differently themselves of course. I think bringing Christ to others is important, but it's important too to understand that He's the one who does it through us - we mustn't stand in His way, particularly if he's playing a long game with someone for example, or choosing a different route for them, as I think is very often the case.

Personally, I don't find rational persuasion very helpful in making solid what I believe, though of course many do. For me, it is more heart than head, and very much my experience of God's presence within me, without which I'd have long ago been lost in a solipsistic darkness.
 
But isn't it inevitable that we all walk a different path to God? We are all born in different ages of the world, with different world views, into different circumstances and experiences, and with different capacities. Even in my own Catholic tradition with its pretty tightly controlled dogma, the ordinary people all have very different images and understanding of who or what God is and how to reach Him. The field is even wider in the Protestant communities, because they range more widely in their beliefs as well as there being differences in what people understand by those beliefs.

Those of us who seek God are like people climbing a mountain - there are different routes up it, some easier and some harder .... and some routes go only part way up. But as you get to the top these routes all converge, and they converge on that Person of God that relates to human beings. It matters little that folks may well have different concepts or names for Him - and indeed it is impossible to encase Him in human concepts. Even the most orthodox Christian will find that God is not what they expected, but far, far more. Some of us will have walked with Him all the way up, but some will only meet Him at the top. Certainly, introduce Him to folks we meet at the bottom, or on the way up, but we have to bear in mind not just the path we are on ourselves but understand that the path many are on has not been the same as ours to that point and it may not be as simple as jumping from one route to another. In any case, I am quite capable of following my own route badly with a map I've misread and leading others astray because of my own limitations.

I guess my feeling is that if I see folks going up rather than downhill, then they are getting closer and closer to Him and that is good - they may well express that very differently themselves of course. I think bringing Christ to others is important, but it's important too to understand that He's the one who does it through us - we mustn't stand in His way, particularly if he's playing a long game with someone for example, or choosing a different route for them, as I think is very often the case.

Personally, I don't find rational persuasion very helpful in making solid what I believe, though of course many do. For me, it is more heart than head, and very much my experience of God's presence within me, without which I'd have long ago been lost in a solipsistic darkness.

It sounds like you agree with me that there is only one way to Salvation. As such, either you are going to heaven or you are not. You get there by repenting of your sins and placing your faith in Jesus. That's the only way to the top of the mountain. All other ways are false.

 
Okay, how does that answer my question to you AT ALL? I said they reported TRUE things MILES away that they had no way of knowing... That's the question...



Assertions from a naturalistic PoV with no evidence but just talking points that sound good.

It was in the first video. The claim that they actually saw those things could have been a delusional, a coincidence, but also could be faulty memories. They could also be manipulated memories, like when original details get modified slightly to fit what they believe, or hear of an event in hindsight and deceived themselves by believing they witnessed things they only faintly heard subconsciously. I don’t know, they are other plausible explanation my dude.
 
It was in the first video. The claim that they actually saw those things could have been a delusional, a coincidence, but also could be faulty memories. They could also be manipulated memories, like when original details get modified slightly to fit what they believe, or hear of an event in hindsight and deceived themselves by believing they witnessed things they only faintly heard subconsciously. I don’t know, they are other plausible explanation my dude.

No, the only way out of it is that they guessed right while they had no brain activity... You can't know something true by a delusion or hallucination or whatever...

If they say they saw something miles away and they were right, that introduces a lot of questions... Why are they even talking about what happened miles away? Why were they right about it? Why did they have that experience at all?

I mean, you can say they just guessed right, but why would they guess right?
 
No, the only way out of it is that they guessed right while they had no brain activity... You can't know something true by a delusion or hallucination or whatever...

If they say they saw something miles away and they were right, that introduces a lot of questions... Why are they even talking about what happened miles away? Why were they right about it? Why did they have that experience at all?

I mean, you can say they just guessed right, but why would they guess right?
Beats me. I can’t help but lean toward more naturalistic explanations. I had an out of body experience when I stopped breathing in my sleep. It was horrific and very trippy.
 
It sounds like you agree with me that there is only one way to Salvation. As such, either you are going to heaven or you are not. You get there by repenting of your sins and placing your faith in Jesus. That's the only way to the top of the mountain. All other ways are false.

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No, I don't think that's so. I think there are many who will only find Him near the top - they will following their longing for they know not what all the way up, or they will faithfully follow a different honourable teaching or philosophy that leads upwards. I think the best way up is to fall in love with God and follow Him to the ends of the earth and beyond - repentance and faith are responses to this not the fundamentals.
 
No, I don't think that's so. I think there are many who will only find Him near the top - they will following their longing for they know not what all the way up, or they will faithfully follow a different honourable teaching or philosophy that leads upwards. I think the best way up is to fall in love with God and follow Him to the ends of the earth and beyond - repentance and faith are responses to this not the fundamentals.

You are free to provide evidence in the Bible or I will even give you the first 300 years of Church history to show that there was a person who wasn't a Christian who went to heaven.
 
You are free to provide evidence in the Bible or I will even give you the first 300 years of Church history to show that there was a person who wasn't a Christian who went to heaven.
Well Moses and Elijah seemed to have done so, reading between the lines of the Transfiguration episode?
 
Well Moses and Elijah seemed to have done so, reading between the lines of the Transfiguration episode?

They put their faith in the coming Messiah looking forward just as we put our faith in the Messiah who already came in the past. They were not Christians per se, but they believed in a coming Messiah, which, without exact knowledge was what was necessary for salvation in the first covenant.
 
Excellent, neither do I.
I don't know the particulars of your Christian beliefs (yet). But I do know that classic, orthodox Christianity decided at the Council of Chalcedon that Jesus is both fully God AND FULLY MAN.

Like I said, I don't confuse God with creation. A man is made of flesh and blood. A man is not a disembodied spirit. Four times the Tanakh teaches that it is not God's nature to be a man. FOUR TIMES. That tells me it is a very important point.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man nor a son of man.
1 Samuel 15:29 He is not a man.
Job 9:32 He is not a man.
Hosea 11:9 I am God, and not a man.

If believing that Jesus is God brings you closer to Hashem and inspires you to be a better person, by all means, believe in Jesus.

I don't. To me he was a nice Jewish man, probably a bit wiser and more intelligent than most, but nothing extraordinary.
 
1. Publius Cornelius Tacitus – Annales (XV, 44), 116 A.D.
The legends about Jesus had already formed by 116 CE. However, all you are quoting is the part of Jesus being executed by Pilate. I really have no problem with that. It does seem fairly likely.
2. Pliny the Younger – (Epistulae X, 96), 112 A.D.
The legends about Jesus had already formed by 112 CE. Still, all you are really quotiing is Pliny the Younger affirming there was a cult that believed stuff about Jesus like that he was God. I concur with that.
"Condemned to the cross" (Cruci damnatum): This is legal certification. The cross was the penalty for rebels against the State. It confirms Jesus was a real man
What point do you think you are making? I have no problem saying that Jesus existed and was crucified.
who challenged the most powerful power structure in the world.
This is you adding your opinion to Josephus.
"Did not forsake him" (Non desierunt): This is the core of the Resurrection
No it's not. How does his disciples being faithful to him after his death prove the resurrection? Does the faithfulness of the Rebbe's disciples prove that the Rebbe was the Messiah? Did the faithfulness of the disciples of Al Hallaj prove that he rose from the dead?
"Tribe of Christians"
You are taking literally what is clearly figurative.
4. Mara Bar Serapion (Letter to his son, circa 73 A.D.)
So if I write a letter referring to, oh I dunno, that MLK Jr was the King of England, and future generations find it, they can use it to prove that KLK Jr was indeed the King of England?
This letter directly links the death of Christ to the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.
Think man! Someone having an opinion doesn't make it so.
5. The Acts of the Martyrs (Roman Legal Records)
These are not fairy tales; they are court transcripts. When a Roman proconsul asked a Christian, "Why do you not offer incense to the Emperor?" and they replied, "Because my King is risen," the notary recorded everything.
And? So?

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No one allows themselves to be torn apart by wild beasts for a "grief-driven hallucination."
Yes, they do. They will even do such things for someone ELSE's grief-driven hallucination.

Hong Xiuquan, a disappointed civil service candidate, suffered a nervous breakdown in 1837. He claimed to ascend to heaven, where a celestial father gave him a sword to slay demons. He later interpreted this to mean he was the younger brother of Jesus Christ.
The Martyrdom: Over 20 million people died between 1850 and 1864 in the resulting civil war. Driven by Hong's apocalyptic promises of a "Heavenly Kingdom," millions of his fanatical "God Worshippers" fought regular imperial armies. They repeatedly chose mass starvation, battlefield slaughter, or collective suicide during sieges rather than surrender their divinely mandated cause.

Akar, absolutely nothing you just offered is evidence. The bar for ACTUAL evidence is much, much higher.
 
I don't know the particulars of your Christian beliefs (yet). But I do know that classic, orthodox Christianity decided at the Council of Chalcedon that Jesus is both fully God AND FULLY MAN.

Like I said, I don't confuse God with creation. A man is made of flesh and blood. A man is not a disembodied spirit. Four times the Tanakh teaches that it is not God's nature to be a man. FOUR TIMES. That tells me it is a very important point.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man nor a son of man.
1 Samuel 15:29 He is not a man.
Job 9:32 He is not a man.
Hosea 11:9 I am God, and not a man.

If believing that Jesus is God brings you closer to Hashem and inspires you to be a better person, by all means, believe in Jesus.

I don't. To me he was a nice Jewish man, probably a bit wiser and more intelligent than most, but nothing extraordinary.

@Misty, trying to convince a Jew from being a Jew to believing Jesus is God in the flesh in one fell swoop is a hard sell...

It will not matter if you quote Genesis 18:1, Jeremiah 23:6, Isaiah 6, or whatever else.

@meowzician, I'm still waiting for you to tell me why God would raise a heretic from the dead.
 
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