The religion coexisting with science thread.

Eventhorizon said:
Ah....wait.

My brothers son goes to catholic school and they say the exact same thing about what hes being taught. And yet I see his school assignments along with other things he brings home on occasion show and talk of Jesus. So while they may teach of sciences, to an extent I do not know, the mere fact they push this religion in this way means hes being taught explicitly there is only one "god" and that everything else is incorrect.

Put simply, though no one will ever admit it, its a very fundamental form of brainwashing.
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You are suggesting I'm brainwashed?
 
Lark said:
I was schooled right through until I was seventeen in roman catholic schools, I never encountered creationism until I met protestant evangelists at the age of seventeen in a multi-faith secular further and higher education institute, I didnt encounter sectarianism or hatred for people based upon their religion until I was at technical college too.

Not only was there no creationist agenda, which is a very niche, very minority position within Christianity let alone all the abrahamic faiths or other faiths even if its something which is much bigger in the culture wars in the US, but there was nothing what so ever in a roman catholic school liable to make living with other religions or people with no religion a problem.

There wasnt any closing of the minds of anyone or any of the other nightmares which keep secular liberals awake at night and, respectfully, if there is any closing of minds going on its generally been the work of aggressive secularists and liberals.
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I think you're mistaking what I'm saying.

I'm not against R.C. schools, nor do I believe they all teach creationism in their classrooms. What I'm saying is that I don't believe that religious ideology should come into play when teaching children about the world and our history. It's not that children shouldn't be taught it at all, but I don't think it's for a K-12 school system that is multicultural; it should be done out of school and in places such as Sunday school (which I attended). I also think it ill-prepares children if they're just taught that, as it's, as you said, a minority position.

It's not just that it's a religious belief that bothers me, it's the fact there's scientific proof that supports other theories. It would be like teaching kids that babies are delivered by storks!
 
Anyway I am aware that to say that all religious people are brainwashed is inaccurate. However I do believe that introducing children to that way of thought at an early age does in effect brainwash them with it.

I realize a statement like this steps on a lot of toes however even so I believe its accurate.

What do you believe the difference between religions and cults are? It is my opinion the only difference is in the amount of followers each has.
 
Creationism in the US is probably totally different than what you are used to @Lark.
It is quite a popular belief here now and they even have a Creationism Theme park somewhere in the midwest I believe…
Literalism and the Bible is more aptly the issue as it relates and interacts with science.
Religion and science…even Christianity and science can easily go hand in hand with very few concessions on either side.
The story of creation for example…all you have to ask is “what is a day in relation to God?” and the idea of the earth being created in 7 days doesn’t have to be wrong. It is when we teach religious fundamentalism ideas as scientific fact that there should be an issue. I don’t teach my Son that the Bible is wrong, or that Jesus didn’t exist…even if there is quite a bit of scientific proof to the contrary. I try to teach him to think about it critically and make his own decisions…I present all side of the story in the most unbiased way possible and let him decide…because I don’t feel that it is my place to force-feed him anything.
Nor should schools do that…they should teach our kids to “think critically” which is something severely lacking IMO.
If my Son decides one day that he believes in the Bible and wants to attend church and this and that…I will be happy for him…but I will always maintain and teach him that you should never just have “blind faith” in anything.
To ignore scientifically proven ways of dating the earth and the universe…and there is more than one way…because it could possibly interfere with your beliefs is choosing to remain ignorant.
Such as the story of Noah…it’s a parable, stolen from the Epic of Gilgamesh…it did not happen…we know this for obvious scientific reasoning about the amount and variety of animals, and the gene-pool remaining from Noah’s family. But that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t hold value and ideas that we should embrace.
I don’t get the disconnect that many Christians seem to have trouble making between parables and historical fact….why is it so difficult to say…”Okay, maybe there was no talking snake and no garden of eden…perhaps it was a parable to make sense of where humans came from.” or “Perhaps there was no towel of Babel, but rather it was a parable to understand why there were so many different tongues.”
I know that Christians are familiar with parables because they are used rather frequently in the Bible both by Jesus and many others…so why argue against scientifically irrefutable evidence and rather just call it a parable? Does it lessen it somehow? I am asking for an honest response…I really wish to understand, why the problem?
 
say what said:
I think you're mistaking what I'm saying.

I'm not against R.C. schools, nor do I believe they all teach creationism in their classrooms. What I'm saying is that I don't believe that religious ideology should come into play when teaching children about the world and our history. It's not that children shouldn't be taught it at all, but I don't think it's for a K-12 school system that is multicultural; it should be done out of school and in places such as Sunday school (which I attended). I also think it ill-prepares children if they're just taught that, as it's, as you said, a minority position.

It's not just that it's a religious belief that bothers me, it's the fact there's scientific proof that supports other theories. It would be like teaching kids that babies are delivered by storks!
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See those to me are reductive, simplistic and prejudicial perspectives on religious schooling, generalising from what are a small number of examples of bad religion, they deserve to be challenged because they are erected in good faith and with best intention but are facsimiles of the very things they aim to pose as alternatives to or to justifiably subvert.
 
You responded to my question with another question, that could be construed as a deflection, particularly when my question to you was so clearly stated, did you mean to do that?
 
Skarekrow said:
Creationism in the US is probably totally different than what you are used to @Lark.
It is quite a popular belief here now and they even have a Creationism Theme park somewhere in the midwest I believe…
Literalism and the Bible is more aptly the issue as it relates and interacts with science.
Religion and science…even Christianity and science can easily go hand in hand with very few concessions on either side.
The story of creation for example…all you have to ask is “what is a day in relation to God?” and the idea of the earth being created in 7 days doesn’t have to be wrong. It is when we teach religious fundamentalism ideas as scientific fact that there should be an issue. I don’t teach my Son that the Bible is wrong, or that Jesus didn’t exist…even if there is quite a bit of scientific proof to the contrary. I try to teach him to think about it critically and make his own decisions…I present all side of the story in the most unbiased way possible and let him decide…because I don’t feel that it is my place to force-feed him anything.
Nor should schools do that…they should teach our kids to “think critically” which is something severely lacking IMO.
If my Son decides one day that he believes in the Bible and wants to attend church and this and that…I will be happy for him…but I will always maintain and teach him that you should never just have “blind faith” in anything.
To ignore scientifically proven ways of dating the earth and the universe…and there is more than one way…because it could possibly interfere with your beliefs is choosing to remain ignorant.
Such as the story of Noah…it’s a parable, stolen from the Epic of Gilgamesh…it did not happen…we know this for obvious scientific reasoning about the amount and variety of animals, and the gene-pool remaining from Noah’s family. But that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t hold value and ideas that we should embrace.
I don’t get the disconnect that many Christians seem to have trouble making between parables and historical fact….why is it so difficult to say…”Okay, maybe there was no talking snake and no garden of eden…perhaps it was a parable to make sense of where humans came from.” or “Perhaps there was no towel of Babel, but rather it was a parable to understand why there were so many different tongues.”
I know that Christians are familiar with parables because they are used rather frequently in the Bible both by Jesus and many others…so why argue against scientifically irrefutable evidence and rather just call it a parable? Does it lessen it somehow? I am asking for an honest response…I really wish to understand, why the problem?
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Well said!
You put my thoughts in writing much better than me!
[MENTION=4115]Lark[/MENTION] : I guess I'm confused as to what you're deeming 'religious schooling'

There's a Buddist school here that many children I know go to- they choose to go there to practice Buddism, but they're still taught the regular K-12 curriculum, but with added content. Just as there is a R.C. school here that incorporates Catholicism into their curriculum, but not at the expense of standardized material. I don't think I articulated what I meant, but as Skarekrow said, the issue is when they use scripture over science.

I don't disvalue the Bible- in fact, I think it can provide a lot of great lessons and insight into our lives...but I don't believe it should be treated as 100% factual or taught to children as such in schools
 
Eventhorizon said:
Anyway I am aware that to say that all religious people are brainwashed is inaccurate. However I do believe that introducing children to that way of thought at an early age does in effect brainwash them with it.

I realize a statement like this steps on a lot of toes however even so I believe its accurate.

What do you believe the difference between religions and cults are? It is my opinion the only difference is in the amount of followers each has.
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Its not about 'stepping on toes' which I actually have known to be a motivation for people boldly stating sweeping generalisations such as these before now.

Its about the statements you have made being factually inaccurate and reflective of attempts to rationalise extreme prejudice.

If secular values, which are presumed erroniously to be value neutral or valid despite no apparent evidence, were practically superior and proved themselves as such religion couldnt possibly have endured as it has. If religion was an unnatural artifice introduced and perpetuated across generations by a brainwashing conspiracy how did it or could it have emerged in the first place? Simple answer is it couldnt have, you need to examine your thinking again.
 
say what said:
Well said!
You put my thoughts in writing much better than me!
[MENTION=4115]Lark[/MENTION] : I guess I'm confused as to what you're deeming 'religious schooling'

There's a Buddist school here that many children I know go to- they choose to go there to practice Buddism, but they're still taught the regular K-12 curriculum, but with added content. Just as there is a R.C. school here that incorporates Catholicism into their curriculum, but not at the expense of standardized material. I don't think I articulated what I meant, but as Skarekrow said, the issue is when they use scripture over science.

I don't disvalue the Bible- in fact, I think it can provide a lot of great lessons and insight into our lives...but I don't believe it should be treated as 100% factual or taught to children as such in schools
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The whole scriptural literalism and solo scriptural thing I believe is wrong, completely, from all perspectives. Arising from and related to a bygone context and its legacies. I believe that is a very good example of bad religion. Bad religion is to be feared by all, religious or secular but not all religion is bad. Not even all non-buddhist religion is bad ;-)

There remains the problem of false dichotomies like good secularism vs. bad religion, they always involve generalisations, a demonised other and binary oppositionalism which all cramp critical reflective thinking.
 
Lark said:
The whole scriptural literalism and solo scriptural thing I believe is wrong, completely, from all perspectives. Arising from and related to a bygone context and its legacies. I believe that is a very good example of bad religion. Bad religion is to be feared by all, religious or secular but not all religion is bad. Not even all non-buddhist religion is bad ;-)

There remains the problem of false dichotomies like good secularism vs. bad religion, they always involve generalisations, a demonised other and binary oppositionalism which all cramp critical reflective thinking.
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Oh I never said religion was bad, any, non-buddist or not. My issue is teaching children a story as a science fact - regardless of where it came from. Offering it to children as an alternative perspective, along with other lines of thinking is different; but teaching it as science, IMO, is wrong and does a disservice to children.

I don't like to say this, but I think you might have jumped the gun- I don't think I've ever suggested religion was bad or demonized it.
 
say what said:
Oh I never said religion was bad, any, non-buddist or not. My issue is teaching children a story as a science fact - regardless of where it came from. Offering it to children as an alternative perspective, along with other lines of thinking is different; but teaching it as science, IMO, is wrong and does a disservice to children.

I don't like to say this, but I think you might have jumped the gun- I don't think I've ever suggested religion was bad or demonized it.
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I may have been responding to more than your post, I apologise if it has come of as aggressive, I assure you it is my wish to remain convivial.

I think you may mean teaching religion as fact, science corresponds to or seeks factuality but it is a methodology and nothing more than that, although I dont want to put words in your mouth.
 
Lark said:
I think you may mean teaching religion as fact, science corresponds to or seeks factuality but it is a methodology and nothing more than that, although I dont want to put words in your mouth.
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I guess I'm just not sure what your trying to get across here- and I mean that in the most honest way! I don't think I'm fully understanding what you mean here!

If we go back to the OP, I fully believe that science and religion can exist together, and that religion has often been the root or drive for science. Many great thinkers sought to understand the truth of our world, and the existence of God, and through that, discovered many fundamentals within science.

As for science being a methodology- I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. I a big proponent of believing there's more to science than just the scientific method, as not everything is testable or falsifiable. However, when it comes to certain aspects of our world, the scientific method and the science behind it, is important. But I don't understand how it conflicts with religion...infact, I'm not actually sure what I'm trying to discuss here, other than I believe that religion and science can coexist.
 
Lark said:
Its not about 'stepping on toes' which I actually have known to be a motivation for people boldly stating sweeping generalisations such as these before now.

Its about the statements you have made being factually inaccurate and reflective of attempts to rationalise extreme prejudice.

If secular values, which are presumed erroniously to be value neutral or valid despite no apparent evidence, were practically superior and proved themselves as such religion couldnt possibly have endured as it has. If religion was an unnatural artifice introduced and perpetuated across generations by a brainwashing conspiracy how did it or could it have emerged in the first place? Simple answer is it couldnt have, you need to examine your thinking again.
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Ever see the movie Zeitgeist?
http://youtu.be/M24LOlRuhYk
It offers up some pretty compelling evidence as to where the true origins of Christianity lie…and why it emerged.
Also Zeitgeist: Addendum
http://youtu.be/HbvCxMfcKv4
which is about pervasive social corruption.
 
Lark said:
Its not about 'stepping on toes' which I actually have known to be a motivation for people boldly stating sweeping generalisations such as these before now.

Its about the statements you have made being factually inaccurate and reflective of attempts to rationalise extreme prejudice.

If secular values, which are presumed erroniously to be value neutral or valid despite no apparent evidence, were practically superior and proved themselves as such religion couldnt possibly have endured as it has. If religion was an unnatural artifice introduced and perpetuated across generations by a brainwashing conspiracy how did it or could it have emerged in the first place? Simple answer is it couldnt have, you need to examine your thinking again.
Click to expand...

Dont see it the same way. Im not suggesting its a brainwashing conspiracy but that brainwashing is indeed taking place. There is no question in my mind this is absolutely happening. Religion emerged from people attempting to explain the world around them. Gods have lived and died before in large quantities and given enough time the gods of today will vanish just as well. Its the way of things.

As I have said before I am happy for those who find some amount of peace in what they believe, I am not as happy for those same people not being accepting and tolerant of beliefs that differ from theirs.
 
Eventhorizon said:
Dont see it the same way. Im not suggesting its a brainwashing conspiracy but that brainwashing is indeed taking place. There is no question in my mind this is absolutely happening. Religion emerged from people attempting to explain the world around them. Gods have lived and died before in large quantities and given enough time the gods of today will vanish just as well. Its the way of things.

As I have said before I am happy for those who find some amount of peace in what they believe, I am not as happy for those same people not being accepting and tolerant of beliefs that differ from theirs.
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I dont see how your final sentence can be reconciled with the idea that religious beliefs being taught is brain washing and as a consequence I'd suggest you give this a little more thought, without a doubt you're acting in good faith and with the best intentions but you're posting stuff and considering it valid with a basis I dont doubt would be inadequate if it were aiming to promote a contra opinion.
 
say what said:
I guess I'm just not sure what your trying to get across here- and I mean that in the most honest way! I don't think I'm fully understanding what you mean here!

If we go back to the OP, I fully believe that science and religion can exist together, and that religion has often been the root or drive for science. Many great thinkers sought to understand the truth of our world, and the existence of God, and through that, discovered many fundamentals within science.

As for science being a methodology- I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. I a big proponent of believing there's more to science than just the scientific method, as not everything is testable or falsifiable. However, when it comes to certain aspects of our world, the scientific method and the science behind it, is important. But I don't understand how it conflicts with religion...infact, I'm not actually sure what I'm trying to discuss here, other than I believe that religion and science can coexist.
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I dont think they're comparable, science is a research methodology and religion is something else, there may be value judgements involved but its different, a little like comparing a speed boat and a car, they are both transport but you'd never mistake or confuse the two
 
Lark said:
I dont think they're comparable, science is a research methodology and religion is something else, there may be value judgements involved but its different, a little like comparing a speed boat and a car, they are both transport but you'd never mistake or confuse the two
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But it's not about comparing them, it's about them coexisting together.

In a lot of ways, they are quite similar...they're ways to view the world, and understand our life around us through a set of rules.
 
Lark said:
I dont see how your final sentence can be reconciled with the idea that religious beliefs being taught is brain washing and as a consequence I'd suggest you give this a little more thought, without a doubt you're acting in good faith and with the best intentions but you're posting stuff and considering it valid with a basis I dont doubt would be inadequate if it were aiming to promote a contra opinion.
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I have given it considerable thought. While I cant prove it I almost certainly sure a great deal more than you have.
You never have an argument, you only tell me I am incorrect. Honestly saying things without having to back them up is incredibly easy.
 
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