To shit with respect!

[Billy]

I hate to read someone seemingly so torn up on the inside...it makes me feel torn up.

I wasn't/am not, are you sure this isn't projection? Why do you make it so personalized? Why does this have to be about my feelings and not whats being discussed? I don't understand this line of discussion...you paint me like I am sitting here screaming at the screen and throwing things around... couldn't be further from the truth. Normally I don't even like to respond to this kind of stuff because it makes me feel reactive. I try to be proactive. I have identified this kind of pathetic congealing of ideas that INFJs are religious/spiritual, I quite frankly disagree. And I go to assure that this notion is smashed.

From your posts when you're being cool, I like you, and it sucks that it seems you have a visceral hate for a part of who I am...Lately, I feel like I need to pop a xanax before I log on the forum. I don't want to create a toxic bond to the site. olololol

I don't hate you at all, I already told you I am rather fond of you. But you keep getting all personal...If you don't like my derision of religion, its best to stay away form those discussions unless you like the argument. But if you do, my suggestion is not to assume people who disagree with you and who are doing things you dislike are automatically angry. Did anyone specifically on this forum push their religion on me? Well no... this forum has no power in my life... but the religious people here are the same as religious people IRL who use power, real power to effect my life. This place is 1 place where I can combat what I see as a stupid idea. If you want to liken it to your own beliefs, I love the sinner, hate the sin. That I am willing to blast people in the face so clearly in MY WORLD is a sign of respect. Coddling people on the other hand is a sign of condescension. I respect you as a person enough not to respect your ideas I find silly.

Healthy, sane, adults are not going to spend their free time hanging and trying to form connections in a toxic online community environment. You're trying to justify outright cyber virtual abuse. This really can't be a healthy environment for anyone.

You realize that's your subjective opinion right?

I personally will talk less about it, for you. It is not an area of my life that I particularly talk about in real life, no need to discuss it here.

Funny, just the other week you were thanking me for keeping you entertained for the night. For some reason your tune has changed on that, pity.

 

[Billy]

Recently I talked about religion only because of threads like yours. For every other time, one of the human right is freedom of belifs, so you can rumble as much as you want...I will talk about what I want when I want...You can't change that or me...
It is interesting how much you can hate people you don't actually know...hm...

Thanks Jana for explaining that having my opinion is my human right. I don't make any actual claim to change what you do... but you cannot deny that this place has changed in tone regarding carte blanche for religious dogmatic belief spewing. Its not longer unchecked. That was my original goal. I have already won. And I don't hate people I disagree with... As mentioned to Cindylou, I am actually quite fond of many of you, yourself included. I just happen to find some of your beliefs and ideas silly. And respect you as a human enough to let you know that. And respect myself enough not to leave it unchallenged.

 

[Jana]

... but you cannot deny that this place has changed in tone regarding carte blanche for religious dogmatic belief spewing. Its not longer unchecked. That was my original goal.

How?
What make you think that?
Proofs, please?
p.s. Don't worry I still think you are the handsomest atheist I know (if A.Einstein was one, he can't compare...

 

[Gaze]

PS3 is superior to Xbox360!

Someone is giving a speech on this so I'm curious about why you think PS3 is better?

 

[Billy]

How?
What make you think that?
Proofs, please?
p.s. Don't worry I still think you are the handsomest atheist I know (if A.Einstein was one, he can't compare...

For proof I would say this thread, some of Apones threads, and other threads where there is a decidedly anti-theist flavor to them. These threads are some of the hottest threads we have going on. They were quite rare before, whereas people used to post incessantly about Jesus and religion and auras and all sorts of supernatural crapola, now there seems to be a countering to these kinds of ideas. Maybe I am just seeing what I want, but I do try to remain objective about it... but then you have Cindy saying things like its hostile or whatever. More proof that there is a check to the rampant religiosity that once ruled the roost here.

and thanks <3

 

[Billy]

Someone is giving a speech on this so I'm curious about why you think PS3 is better?

Well, the thing is... those original viewpoints I wrote, are not actually my view points, I was simply playing the devils advocate. Which is why I wasn't sure of what [MENTION=564]acd[/MENTION] was asking me... maybe she thought I actually believe that... I don't. I was simply making a point. And yeah in my standard fashion I made it with some bloviating style. What can I say, I am bombastic.

That being said, well, I guess PS3 is technically better as far as its tech specs go. Not to mention backwards compatibility for older games, and blu ray capabilities. Xbox 360 is superior in that it has better exclusives (Halo, Gears of War) a better controller (IMO) and Xbox live, although Live is not what it used to be... oh and much better achievements.

Which one is better? meh, its up to personal taste. I have both though. LOL

 

[Gaze]

Well, the thing is... those original viewpoints I wrote, are not actually my view points, I was simply playing the devils advocate. Which is why I wasn't sure of what @acd was asking me... maybe she thought I actually believe that... I don't. I was simply making a point. And yeah in my standard fashion I made it with some bloviating style. What can I say, I am bombastic.

That being said, well, I guess PS3 is technically better as far as its tech specs go. Not to mention backwards compatibility for older games, and blu ray capabilities. Xbox 360 is superior in that it has better exclusives (Halo, Gears of War) a better controller (IMO) and Xbox live, although Live is not what it used to be... oh and much better achievements.

Which one is better? meh, its up to personal taste. I have both though. LOL

I've heard one can play music while playing games and the other has internet access?

 

[Billy]

I've heard one can play music while playing games and the other has internet access?

What do you mean by internet access? As in a browser? I mean both have Wifi and connect to online gaming servers I have no idea if both have browsers, I certainly wouldnt use them. Wii has a browser as well, its abysmal. As for music, I mean it all comes down to personal taste. I play music on my computer or my iphone while I play, I wouldnt need to do that with the systems themselves... it seems like a minor point.

 

[Gaze]

What do you mean by internet access? As in a browser? I mean both have Wifi and connect to online gaming servers I have no idea if both have browsers, I certainly wouldnt use them. Wii has a browser as well, its abysmal. As for music, I mean it all comes down to personal taste. I play music on my computer or my iphone while I play, I wouldnt need to do that with the systems themselves... it seems like a minor point.

Ah, I don't play so I'm just repeating what I've heard about them. Thx.

 

[Jana]

Well, I agree that topics like this can make you feel like there is too much religion stufs. But from my point of view (wich can be subjectiven from obvious reason difference is this: in those topics we dicsussed noone did not here opened them to rumble agains someone. These topics are parts of our lives, for those who belive. As any other topic you can write or don't even read it. With those some of you opened is different, they were mostly opened to provoke reactions, they were much more "warriror" flavour than many threads on this forum like. If you just talked on your belifs, no one harm would be felt. Look, if someone tell me that I am stupid because I am religious, that IS rather agressive.

 

[Billy]

Well, I agree that topics like this can make you feel like there is too much religion stufs. But from my point of view (wich can be subjectiven from obvious reason difference is this: in those topics we dicsussed noone did not here opened them to rumble agains someone. These topics are parts of our lives, for those who belive. As any other topic you can write or don't even read it. With those some of you opened is different, they were mostly opened to provoke reactions, they were much more "warriror" flavour than many threads on this forum like. If you just talked on your belifs, no one harm would be felt. Look, if someone tell me that I am stupid because I am religious, that IS rather agressive.

Thats sort of the point I was making... before it was almost like religious ubiquity, no one challenged it much. All of a sudden a few of us are attacking these ideas we find silly all over, so there is a painful (for some of you) readjustment of whats socially acceptable on this forum. For me this is a victory. If we lived on a forum where it was 100% atheist and we all agreed with each other and you decided to start spreading the gospel our pov's would be challenged and it wouldn't be quite so ubiquitous. In that way it would be a victory for you. Most of us aren't saying that believing in religion makes you stupid. We are saying that religion is stupid and that people who believe in it, believe on blind faith, which is true. The stupid part is subjective, it seems aggressive, but so what? Does that really upset you so much? I dont believe in tact, obviously some of you think thats stupid, that doesnt offend me in the least because in a way it IS stupid, but I dont care. My need for bombastic-ism is more pressing to me, than my need to make sure the people I am talking to feel comfortable, because the world I grew up in, that's more real. Reality is not kind nor coddling, its vulgar and in your face. Its REAL. I dont think I am going to convert any of you to atheism... cripes its not even my goal. But I am changing the flavor of the forum, many of us are. We are planting a flag and saying, this is where we stand, we will be dealt with. And its working.

 

[CindyLou]

I wasn't/am not, are you sure this isn't projection? Why do you make it so personalized? Why does this have to be about my feelings and not whats being discussed? I don't understand this line of discussion...you paint me like I am sitting here screaming at the screen and throwing things around... couldn't be further from the truth. Normally I don't even like to respond to this kind of stuff because it makes me feel reactive. I try to be proactive. I have identified this kind of pathetic congealing of ideas that INFJs are religious/spiritual, I quite frankly disagree. And I go to assure that this notion is smashed.



I don't hate you at all, I already told you I am rather fond of you. But you keep getting all personal...If you don't like my derision of religion, its best to stay away form those discussions unless you like the argument. But if you do, my suggestion is not to assume people who disagree with you and who are doing things you dislike are automatically angry. Did anyone specifically on this forum push their religion on me? Well no... this forum has no power in my life... but the religious people here are the same as religious people IRL who use power, real power to effect my life. This place is 1 place where I can combat what I see as a stupid idea. If you want to liken it to your own beliefs, I love the sinner, hate the sin. That I am willing to blast people in the face so clearly in MY WORLD is a sign of respect. Coddling people on the other hand is a sign of condescension. I respect you as a person enough not to respect your ideas I find silly.





You realize that's your subjective opinion right?


Funny, just the other week you were thanking me for keeping you entertained for the night. For some reason your tune has changed on that, pity.

I don't use primitive defense mechanisms.

This IS about your feelings...this thread anyway. Also, obviously I don't think you're angry to the point that you're throwing things, but you are angry. Its okay. People use space on the internet to deal with their issues. I've done it, and there is nothing wrong about being angry at religion.

It WAS fun, I WAS entertained, but I thought your tune had changed with this thread. Mine has not. You were respectful, honest and even funny, but then for whatever reason some of the things you began to post recently were triggering for whatever reason.

I'll take what you say at face value about your intent behind your posts. Its all I can do. I'll play around as long as you're playing. There is never any real malice behind what I say and if someone is offended, I will most definitely apologize. I can't play if you're just going to name call and mean it. Not really a healthy way for me to spend my time. I have had enough abuse in my life. Obviously you're fee to do what you want so go ahead.

 

[Billy]

I don't use primitive defense mechanisms.

Maybe you do?

This IS about your feelings...this thread anyway. Also, obviously I don't think you're angry to the point that you're throwing things, but you are angry. Its okay. People use space on the internet to deal with their issues. I've done it, and there is nothing wrong about being angry at religion.

You keep telling me I have issues, but the pejorative way you are using it is quite condescending. I do have "issues" one of them is religion, but that doesnt mean its an unhealthy mental preoccupation which is the pejorative way you are using the word. Pro choice people also have "issues" economic conservatives have "issues". You keep telling me how I feel, I find it insulting. You dont know me well enough to know that, you keep acting as though you are an expert on what Billy is thinking/doing... I think I am in a much better position to judge that than you are. You are making assumptions. Which is why I floated the idea that you may be projecting.

It WAS fun, I WAS entertained, but I thought your tune had changed with this thread. Mine has not. You were respectful, honest and even funny, but then for whatever reason some of the things you began to post recently were triggering for whatever reason.

I have done exactly the same thing... I have not changed, however you seem to have changed a little bit. A little more sensitive on the issue, whereas before you had fun hitting me head on about it, now you say you need a xanax to come here... this has nothing to do with me, that's outside of me.

I'll take what you say at face value about your intent behind your posts. Its all I can do. I'll play around as long as you're playing. I can't play if you're just going to name call though. Not really a healthy way for me to spend my time.

Did I name call on you? If I did I am sorry, I told you already that I like you. In my passion my mouth gets away from me at times, but I never meant for it to be anything serious. I dont take any of this seriously, but if I am going to be here, I am going to mold it the way I see fit so long as I can. Thats not anger, thats not issues. Thats just who and what I am. I am a bit of a control freak at times with whatever it is I am doing, discussing things on a forum, whittling a piece of wood, going down on a girl, building a sega genesis collection, writing a story, I do it to the 10th degree. Always.

 

[CindyLou]

Thats sort of the point I was making... before it was almost like religious ubiquity, no one challenged it much. All of a sudden a few of us are attacking these ideas we find silly all over, so there is a painful (for some of you) readjustment of whats socially acceptable on this forum. For me this is a victory. If we lived on a forum where it was 100% atheist and we all agreed with each other and you decided to start spreading the gospel our pov's would be challenged and it wouldn't be quite so ubiquitous. In that way it would be a victory for you. Most of us aren't saying that believing in religion makes you stupid. We are saying that religion is stupid and that people who believe in it, believe on blind faith, which is true. The stupid part is subjective, it seems aggressive, but so what? Does that really upset you so much? I dont believe in tact, obviously some of you think thats stupid, that doesnt offend me in the least because in a way it IS stupid, but I dont care. My need for bombastic-ism is more pressing to me, than my need to make sure the people I am talking to feel comfortable, because the world I grew up in, that's more real. Reality is not kind nor coddling, its vulgar and in your face. Its REAL. I dont think I am going to convert any of you to atheism... cripes its not even my goal. But I am changing the flavor of the forum, many of us are. We are planting a flag and saying, this is where we stand, we will be dealt with. And its working.

Communication is pointless when no one can receive your message. Its not even communicating. It's not really honesty or real if you set it up so that your honesty can't be received, or you are leaving people offended in your wake. You make it pointless to be honest, you make it pointless for you to speak at all if no one can hear you and they slam the door on you and your ideas. This is a world full of people, we have to learn how to communicate in it in a way that people receive what we have to say. Brutal honesty is sometimes selfish at it's core...do you disagree? You don't care if anyone actually receives your message, or do you? You just want to be HEARD GOD DAMNIT! Am I wrong?

 

[CindyLou]

Maybe you do?


You keep telling me I have issues, but the pejorative way you are using it is quite condescending. I do have "issues" one of them is religion, but that doesnt mean its an unhealthy mental preoccupation which is the pejorative way you are using the word. Pro choice people also have "issues" economic conservatives have "issues". You keep telling me how I feel, I find it insulting. You dont know me well enough to know that, you keep acting as though you are an expert on what Billy is thinking/doing... I think I am in a much better position to judge that than you are. You are making assumptions. Which is why I floated the idea that you may be projecting.






I have done exactly the same thing... I have not changed, however you seem to have changed a little bit. A little more sensitive on the issue, whereas before you had fun hitting me head on about it, now you say you need a xanax to come here... this has nothing to do with me, that's outside of me.


Did I name call on you? If I did I am sorry, I told you already that I like you. In my passion my mouth gets away from me at times, but I never meant for it to be anything serious. I dont take any of this seriously, but if I am going to be here, I am going to mold it the way I see fit so long as I can. Thats not anger, thats not issues. Thats just who and what I am. I am a bit of a control freak at times with whatever it is I am doing, discussing things on a forum, whittling a piece of wood, going down on a girl, building a sega genesis collection, writing a story, I do it to the 10th degree. Always.

Lol. the xanax was a joke. I never said that your "issues" were unhealthy, I was trying to say it was normal. I'm sorry if I'm insulting you. That was not my intention.

 

[CindyLou]

And yes, FVCK. I've heard the "you're telling me what I'm thinking/feeling" complaint many times before IRL so maybe that's what I'm doing.

Don't you people know that I can SEE INTO UR SOUL!!1

 

[Billy]

Communication is pointless when no one can receive your message. Its not even communicating. It's not really honesty or real if you set it up so that your honesty can't be received, or you are leaving people offended in your wake. You make it pointless to be honest, you make it pointless for you to speak at all if no one can hear you and they slam the door on you and your ideas. This is a world full of people, we have to learn how to communicate in it in a way that people receive what we have to say. Brutal honesty is sometimes selfish at it's core...do you disagree? You don't care if anyone actually receives your message, or do you? You just want to be HEARD GOD DAMNIT! Am I wrong?

Its not about being heard. Its about balancing a formula I notice on this forum. Again, you cannot logically convince a religious person into being an atheist, it just doesn't happen. So in that sense the message I am putting out, isn't for you, isn't for the religious people here. Well that's only partially true, its not intended for them directly, but it does re-establish boundaries for whats socially acceptable here and thats a message they will either consciously or subconsciously pick up. And yes I disagree, I dont find brutal honesty to be selfish, in what way is it selfish? It doesnt gain me anything, if anything it hurts me socially, but that is just simply something that is not important to me. I guess in THAT way its selfish, because I am going against the grain, but I believe it is with good purpose. And I choose to believe that that is why.

 

[Billy]

And yes, FVCK. I've heard the "you're telling me what I'm thinking/feeling" complaint many times before IRL so maybe that's what I'm doing.

Don't you people know that I can SEE INTO UR SOUL!!1

I LOL'd at the joke, but that is the sort of thing that actually does anger me, but only because my INCREDIBLY uneducated, overbearing, and idiotic mother has been doing to me my entire life. Telling me what I think, telling me what I feel, disregarding what I am actually doing based on the fact that she is an undeniable narcissist. I am not calling you that, but when people do that to me, thats what it invokes.

 

[Lemonworld]

Why not simply practice indifference?

 

[Trifoilum]

True, the principle of respectful disagreement is superfluous to the "battle of ideas" as you put it. But it draws boundaries, so that such "battles of ideas" do not become irrelevant and injurious personal attacks.

In essence this is true social conditioning, because it's aim is to preserve social (interpersonal) relationships, even when there is disagreement.

I think the core is this.

Are all claims people make which are open to debate, argument and ridicule. We have no need for respecting these views if we disagree, and disagree many of us shall... why then does Religion get a pass?

Why is it expecting in this day and age, that any claim (save religion) has to be backed up and defended. Why does religion get a pass?

Rambling time.

The first case you described MOST OFTEN is an argument; an attempt to convince, an attempt to send a message whether to control, to teach, or just to inform....but still, the idea is that you are telling someone else something you believed, which, the other person has a right to dissect, to debate, to agree, to disagree, to add, to trade.

In the second case, on why religious claims doesn't have to be backed up / defended......the more genuine cases tend to be / perceived to be defensive. The belief of the other person, the one who feels no need to back their belief up (other than things they found 'true'), was directly attacked without any reasons.
"I was just minding my own business and living, WHY THE HECK DO YOU GOTTA TELL ME WHAT TO DO OR WHAT TO BELIEVE?". It goes for anything really. Religion/lack of them, your partners, your ownership....etc.

It's a matter of perspective, I would believe; there are muddling cases where people believe they are part of the second while doing the first. It might be good if we can differ the two of them, but unfortunately...

I feel no need to honor and respect peoples religious views anymore than I do that homosexuality is a choice or abortion is murder, these are stupid claims, and I feel no remorse in calling them exactly that. Stupid, and based on ignorance. Only when I say that about those claims, people say, well he is passionate and I guess he is entitled to his argument. But as soon as we say something like "faith is synonymous with blind belief" and blind belief is not a good way to live, we are suddenly OGRES trying to destroy the fabric of reality.

ONE POTENTIAL PERSPECTIVE:
One is agreeing to disagree, the other is (openly/not so openly) mocking. :|

It's not that the listeners are entirely innocent; part of this -is- ego defense. For instance, in your case; 'are you calling me blind?'. But you probably know it better how bad making things personal puts you inside a debate, so they are trying to deal with it 'rationally'...bringing their emotions along.

I am sick of this "we must respect religious beliefs" mantra.

But we must; the way we must essentially respect other's choice of partners, way of life, where do you go to school, who do you fuck in bed, etc. :|

It's where others start dictating where our lives should be that it became problematic.

Its bullshit, and I propose the idea that religion is just another (bad) idea that is VERY open to ridicule and argument. It belongs in the mental rubbish bin with other outdated methods for understanding. It was useful once upon a time in barbaric times, no longer is it needed.

The assumption being that bad ideas should be ridiculed / argued....
I cannot say I disagree, but that's a bit too black/white for me.

Add that religion by itself is very...vague.