Truly Kind and Gentle People

charlatan said:
Yeah I mean, someone has to reel us in. At some point, we could use the word "pig" to mean "president", because hey, as long as you're internally consistent!!! But it's true at some point, having some language conventions is helpful in reducing time wasted
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Well we are living in the era of alternative facts, why not alternative definitions? Anyway. Not to detract from the topic anymore... There is a point that some niceness is feigned for ulterior motives.... But in response to the OP, we don't always see people, even genuinely nice people, in their moments of weakness, either.
 
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acd said:
Well I'm a crotchety, mean-spirited hag scowling at all of you butcherers of language.
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I think people baulk at nice and kind because they are rarely genuine.

Some people seem to jealously try to claim they are nice and kind by redefining, or pretending; others scoff in envy, and reduce niceness to something Pollyanna; and some can acknowledge it, albeit with skepticism about the extent of its existence.

I had no idea that it's a loaded term... but it makes sense that when it comes to kindness, NTs want to discover it, and NFs want to be it.
 
acd said:
Actually, nice means appropriate, pleasant.. the definition includes the word kind. Kind means benevolent or humane or charitable. You can even look these words up in the dictionary! There is nothing fake or narcissistic about being nice... I think the animosity towards niceness is strange in that article. Maybe nice isn't the word they are looking for.
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Yeah, I don't think it's necessary to be so highly critical of someone for being nice. Even if it's just social niceties. Not a bad thing if it prevents conflict or makes people less likely to hurt each other. Being nice to someone or doing nice things for people can also make that person feel good. I think the point of the OP is to acknowledge kindness that doesn't expect anything from anyone but gives freely. I think we are all able to do this in our own way. We may do it with our family, friends, acquaintances or strangers. I think kindness has good intentions behind it. Kindness is also not just a physical act but consideration for other people in how we think. This can mean giving someone the benefit of the doubt even if we have every right to do the opposite. There are many ways to show kindness to someone.
 
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Peppermint said:
Patience and restraint seem like the key elements of what seems like all encompassing kindness.
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Gale said:
Yeah, I don't think it's necessary to be so highly critical of someone for being nice. Even if it's just social niceties. Not a bad thing if it prevents conflict or makes people less likely to hurt each other. Being nice to someone or doing nice things for people can also make that person feel good. I think the point of the OP is to acknowledge kindness that doesn't expect anything from anyone but gives freely. I think we are all able to do this in our own way. We may do it with our family, friends, acquaintances or strangers. I think kindness has good intentions behind it. Kindness is also not just a physical act but consideration for other people in how we think. This can mean giving someone the benefit of the doubt even if we have every right to do the opposite. There are many ways to show kindness to someone.
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The author of that article may have gone a little too far, but I think he definitely got his point across. There are different reasons for why we do what we do. And sometimes nice is not so nice. He makes some great points.

The OP wanted to know if there are people who are always kind without exception. I think the answer is clearly NO. As you mentioned, we are all capable of kindness. And we all engage in it. We are on the same page.
But there is no such thing as a person who engages in this act ALWAYS 100% of the time.

If a person is nice to someone who is known to be an asshole, they are usually doing so in hopes that the person won't be an asshole to them. Yes, maybe they are trying to be understanding of this person's assholish personality (there must be an underlying reason, right?) but usually it's because they are afraid it will be directed at them. It doesn't always work and they still get treated poorly. But the nice person continues to be nice. But inside they are mad as hell. They hate this person. It makes them cry. Causes them emotional distress.

By being nice to the asshole and not standing up for themselves, they are not being nice to themselves. So the answer is no, OP.
 
Anywhere But Here said:
The author of that article may have gone a little too far, but I think he definitely got his point across. There are different reasons for why we do what we do. And sometimes nice is not so nice. He makes some great points.

The OP wanted to know if there are people who are always kind without exception. I think the answer is clearly NO. As you mentioned, we are all capable of kindness. And we all engage in it. We are on the same page.
But there is no such thing as a person who engages in this act ALWAYS 100% of the time.

If a person is nice to someone who is known to be an asshole, they are usually doing so in hopes that the person won't be an asshole to them. Yes, maybe they are trying to be understanding of this person's assholish personality (there must be an underlying reason, right?) but usually it's because they are afraid it will be directed at them. It doesn't always work and they still get treated poorly. But the nice person continues to be nice. But inside they are mad as hell. They hate this person. It makes them cry. Causes them emotional distress.

By being nice to the asshole and not standing up for themselves, they are not being nice to themselves. So the answer is no, OP.
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Undoubtedly nice people suffer because of it. However, to claim anger is the only response to suffering, or an inevitable response doesn't seem self evident. Some kind people immerse themselves in beauty and romanticism as a soothing remedy for the ills and sorrows of their lives.

Patience, the ability to bear suffering for the sake of something better is probably a common trait among the kind.
 
Flavus Aquila said:
Undoubtedly nice people suffer because of it. However, to claim anger is the only response to suffering, or an inevitable response doesn't seem self evident. Some kind people immerse themselves in beauty and romanticism as a soothing remedy for the ills and sorrows of their lives.

Patience, the ability to bear suffering for the sake of something better is probably a common trait among the kind.
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Sometimes they immerse themselves in beauty and romanticism to sooth themselves. But that doesn't change the damage done to the soul.

As for the patience and ability to bear suffering for the sake of something better? I can see your point. But go a bit deeper with me for a second. I will show you the flaw in this way of thinking...

Why should anyone have to suffer for being kind? Why is that accepted as the norm? And why do you feel that the result of being nice to an abusive personality results in something better? I would argue that it has the opposite effect. It encourages the abuse and the bad behavior. Maybe the asshole treats the nice person a little better for it (or not). But an asshole is an asshole, right? So it won't stop him from treating other people poorly. The nice person has taken care of their end without considering the other people suffering from that abusive asshole's behavior. If the nice person really wanted to make a difference with their words/actions (for the sake of something better) they would call this asshole out on their behavior. Yes, the asshole may lash out, say mean things. It could get pretty uncomfortable. But, this is what is needed to plant the seeds of change. The asshole may not openly say it, but being called out on the behavior will make them think about their approach and how it may affect others. They begin to think, "you know what? I really AM an asshole!" And in turn, they may adjust their attitude accordingly. Awareness goes hand in hand with change. Speak up and give them the gift of awareness. Be the catalyst for positive change.

The moral of the story? Calling out an asshole is the kindest thing you can do for them.

As I said, intention is everything. And kindness is honesty.
 
Anywhere But Here said:
Sometimes they immerse themselves in beauty and romanticism to sooth themselves. But that doesn't change the damage done to the soul.

As for the patience and ability to bear suffering for the sake of something better? I can see your point. But go a bit deeper with me for a second. I will show you the flaw in this way of thinking...

Why should anyone have to suffer for being kind? Why is that accepted as the norm? And why do you feel that the result of being nice to an abusive personality results in something better? I would argue that it has the opposite effect. It encourages the abuse and the bad behavior. Maybe the asshole treats the nice person a little better for it (or not). But an asshole is an asshole, right? So it won't stop him from treating other people poorly. The nice person has taken care of their end without considering the other people suffering from that abusive asshole's behavior. If the nice person really wanted to make a difference with their words/actions (for the sake of something better) they would call this asshole out on their behavior. Yes, the asshole may lash out, say mean things. It could get pretty uncomfortable. But, this is what is needed to plant the seeds of change. The asshole may not openly say it, but being called out on the behavior will make them think about their approach and how it may affect others. They begin to think, "you know what? I really AM an asshole!" And in turn, they may adjust their attitude accordingly. Awareness goes hand in hand with change. Speak up and give them the gift of awareness. Be the catalyst for positive change.

The moral of the story? Calling out an asshole is the kindest thing you can do for them.

As I said, intention is everything. And kindness is honesty.
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The best way to deal with an abusive person is to leave and never look back. Terminate the relationship. Calling them out will not change them. Being alone may force them to confront themselves but even then, doubtful. Self preservation is the focus, not changing others. People are responsible to deal with the consequences of their own actions. It's nobody's job to change anyone.
 
acd said:
The best way to deal with an abusive person is to leave and never look back. Terminate the relationship. Calling them out will not change them. Being alone may force them to confront themselves but even then, doubtful. Self preservation is the focus, not changing others. People are responsible to deal with the consequences of their own actions. It's nobody's job to change anyone.
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I would agree. They should walk away from the situation and never look back. They should be kind to themselves first and foremost. But that's not usually what happens. Really nice people tend to stay. As FA said, they bear the suffering.

And that is fine if they choose to stay. But they shouldn't have to pretend to be okay with the abuse. Speak up and call them out. Maybe they see the error in their ways and try to change. Maybe they don't. But at least you made them aware of it.

It's better than pretending it didn't happen. That encourages bad behavior.

Also, if the abusive person is continually called out and the nice person still doesn't see any positive changes, then this may open their eyes. It might be the wake up call they needed to let go and leave. (Kindness to Self.)

And of course it is nobody's "job" to help others change for the better. We do this out of kindness and love for our fellow human being. It's a choice.
 
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I think I fit roughly the idea of kind in the OP, but with the added stipulations that generally this goes with having a higher threshold of suffering for something better, I don't think I any longer would qualify. I guess part of the issue is I don't tend to know how to help people work through ultimately emotional issues, it's fine if I can present a rationalization that would change the person's way of thinking and by that means change the person's emotions. But basically situations where there are "raw" emotional issues to work through, I don't tend to work with, partly because I don't even understand them, as there's quite a close correspondence in my mind between rationalization and emotional reaction, so that tweaking the first can easily tweak the latter.
Rationalizations are quick: you just need to change your knowledge/interp of the facts. Emotional issues can continue even after someone has got it intellectually. They kind of ooze on.

I guess I find in these cases, it's not even self-evident to someone to seek a kind world -- it's not that the someone just needs certain philosphical issues clarified, it's that the very premise of seeking kindness isn't evident. I'm not sure if I see a rationale that doesn't sound somewhat unrealistic to me for placing a kind of faith in their changing unless they expressly show some sign for that.
(See the analogy with mountain lion. It seems to me like you can't reason with a mountain lion the same way you would with many people.)
 
Flavus Aquila said:
Are implicitly kind people rare? ... I mean people who never have a snarky, annoyed look, or word for anyone.

People always seem to have a kindly bias towards others who are variously; useful, agree with them, are agreeable, are interesting, who they pity, who they love, vulnerable, etc. What about people who are kind to everyone without exception?

..

I think such people are very rare and I'm always stunned and delighted to know they exist.
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I don't think there is anyone who never has "a snarky, annoyed look, or word for anyone." Everyone has their moments, but I know some very genuine and kind people. The especially caring, genuine, and accepting individuals I know are rare. However, I think there are a lot of truly kind people who operate behind the scenes so you never really notice how good they are.
 
At one point in my life I'd admire these kinds of people, but today I'd never trust anyone with such limited range of emotion.
 
Horatio said:
At one point in my life I'd admire these kinds of people, but today I'd never trust anyone with such limited range of emotion.
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Found this interesting -- could you expand on the bold? In what way do you consider the range of emotion limited, and why does it impede your trust?
 
Anywhere But Here said:
Sometimes they immerse themselves in beauty and romanticism to sooth themselves. But that doesn't change the damage done to the soul.

As for the patience and ability to bear suffering for the sake of something better? I can see your point. But go a bit deeper with me for a second. I will show you the flaw in this way of thinking...

Why should anyone have to suffer for being kind? Why is that accepted as the norm? And why do you feel that the result of being nice to an abusive personality results in something better? I would argue that it has the opposite effect. It encourages the abuse and the bad behavior. Maybe the asshole treats the nice person a little better for it (or not). But an asshole is an asshole, right? So it won't stop him from treating other people poorly. The nice person has taken care of their end without considering the other people suffering from that abusive asshole's behavior. If the nice person really wanted to make a difference with their words/actions (for the sake of something better) they would call this asshole out on their behavior. Yes, the asshole may lash out, say mean things. It could get pretty uncomfortable. But, this is what is needed to plant the seeds of change. The asshole may not openly say it, but being called out on the behavior will make them think about their approach and how it may affect others. They begin to think, "you know what? I really AM an asshole!" And in turn, they may adjust their attitude accordingly. Awareness goes hand in hand with change. Speak up and give them the gift of awareness. Be the catalyst for positive change.

The moral of the story? Calling out an asshole is the kindest thing you can do for them.

As I said, intention is everything. And kindness is honesty.
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I agree with your assessment that calling out bad behaviour can be the kindest thing to do. Trying to placate an 'asshole' by not calling them out is actually teaching them that it's ok to treat people like that. It doesn't mean that you have to lower yourself to their level. You can call them out in a gentle and kind way. However, they are not likely to see it that way.

It is also not always simple to walk away from people who treat you badly. Sometimes kind selfless people feel that they have to bear suffering at the hands of an asshole because there are other people involved that would be harmed if they walked away. Sometimes people have little choice but to stay and do a type of dance that includes trying to be kind to someone who will use it as an excuse to keep behaving badly, alternated with calling them out on their bad behaviour which often can mean being retaliated against. Kindness isn't always obvious either, even to the people who are the recipient of the kindness, especially if they are not particularly kind themselves.

In the long run, if you don't call out the bad behaviour you become an accomplice to it, and an enabler, and you are helping to spread unkindness in the world.

It takes a lot of strength to be truly kind.
 
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I believe that the definition of being kind to all human beings is to enter into what Martin Buber calls an I-Thou relationship with them.

Almost everyone relate to each other in I-It relationships. That is, they treat each other as objects or subjective mental concepts, and view them (outside of awareness) only as a means to an end, they only care for people if they serve a purpose for them and they judge people through that lense. People are meant to be used and experienced.

I-Thou relationships are rare. People who are able to do this see everyone as another human soul and meet them where they are without any expectations or judgement. This doesn't mean that they don't have boundaries and accept bad behaviour from people (having boundaries is part of being kind), but it means that they do not try to control or use people.
 
charlatan said:
Found this interesting -- could you expand on the bold? In what way do you consider the range of emotion limited, and why does it impede your trust?
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I've got the same question, because it seems that kind people are willing to experience suffering for their principles, whereas most people are not. Kind people have a broader emotional range imo.
 
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