Trump Promotes Torture

[acd]

These are things we should have already done...​

Let's be honest with him. It will be paid for by taking every penny of his income and then when that is spent, the government will come to his house and rip the clothes off his back to distribute the rags to the masses. Also, everyone is alotted one inflatable blow up castle and a can of generic beans because socialism. Better to usher in the era of Emperor Trump!

 

[Skarekrow]

Let's be honest with him. It will be paid for by taking every penny of his income and then when that is spent, the government will come to his house and rip the clothes off his back to distribute the rags to the masses. Also, everyone is alotted one inflatable blow up castle and a can of generic beans because socialism. Better to usher in the era of Emperor Trump!

Don’t forget the blocks of government cheese!

 

[Elegant Winter]

Okay, we could, and we do use prisoners for certain projects around the country.
Still has to get funded.
Prisoners still have to be housed and fed and now basically guarded out in the public against escape.
And then there is public perception - is the bridge as safe as that other one that was built by a private company?
You would also have to completely get rid of for-profit prisons, otherwise there is a huge conflict of interest (there already is) that people are being put into prison in order to have enough workers - sounds more and more like the Socialism you dread.
Bad plan.

They're housed and fed in prison. You can drive them wherever they need to go on a daily basis.

Also, assuming I dread socialism is kind of silly. I'm a nationalist and that's all I've claimed to be. Nationalism and socialism aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[Elegant Winter]

Don’t forget the blocks of government cheese!

Government cheese?

 

[Skarekrow]

They're housed and fed in prison. You can drive them wherever they need to go on a daily basis.

Also, assuming I dread socialism is kind of silly. I'm a nationalist and that's all I've claimed to be. Nationalism and socialism aren't mutually exclusive.

If you are running a country of private prisons (which we are) and those corporations have lobbyists to help create tougher sentencing laws to keep people in prison longer (which they are and do)…then there is a conflict of interest using prisoners for labor.
It’s equivalent to slave labor and though the US was built upon the backs of slaves…I thought perhaps we could get past that part of our history.

 

[acd]

Don’t forget the blocks of government cheese!

The bones of America will grow strong on stray dog's milk cheese for the proletariat! None of that bourgeoise stuff.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Because this thread is about “Trump” specifically…that’s why he’s been singled out.
Sander’s actually lists how he’s going to pay for shit…if you want I’ll find you the link.

Oh right..

 

[Eventhorizon]

Those “unreasonable levels” could probably have been lowered a bit…and in fact were in the 70’s when cost of living went up….then were drastically cut by Reagan to levels that were unsustainable…then cut again by Bush to even more unsustainable levels, our economy crashed and our taxes are still at an unsustainable level both in what we need for government to function (especially if we are going to keep playing World Police) and still give the working/middle class a wage high enough that they don’t need government assistance and the sort.
You know, I watched a show…American Pickers…the other night and they picked this old factory…well in the basement was a full on theater…the owner of this company which employed a good portion of the town built it for his workers to keep them happy. What an amazing incentive at the time, if someone did that for their employees in this day and age…they would be called “nuts”…why waste your money?
Too many people have this “owner-slave” mentality, that the workers aren’t owed a dime for helping to build up a giant in the field, because it was that one guy who actually had the money to start the company…that’s the only difference.
We have no more pension plans man…your retirement is a gamble away on wall street sitting in a 401k 403b 408whateverthefuck.
The banks and investment houses must be separated like they used to be.
We must raise the SS cap to at least $250,000 - problem solved (so long as the govt. keep their mitt off it)
Taxes are still unsustainable…like I said we have 65,000 bridges deemed “unsafe”, we have tons of people out of work…it’s a no brainer.
Everyone is just too chickenshit to stand up to wall street.

I agree there are corporations who currently fully buy into the "owner - slave" mentally as you put it I currently work for one. But... we are not talking about corporations. ..or werent. We were talking about people being put into certain tax brackets related to their income I thought.

 

[Eventhorizon]

These are things we should have already done...​

College for all only costs 75 Billion... I would like to see the math on that.
Estate taxes are already BS. The government already takes more than their fair share.
These numbers are highly questionable. Has a reputable economic company commented on this yet?

Related to the estate tax, when my parents died the government ended up with 40 percent of everything. This was on sold property that had already been taxed time and time again through various means. Life insurance payouts etc. The government already takes way more than they should.

 

[Skarekrow]

College for all only costs 75 Billion... I would like to see the math on that.
Estate taxes are already BS. The government already takes more than their fair share.
These numbers are highly questionable. Has a reputable economic company commented on this yet?

Related to the estate tax, when my parents died the government ended up with 40 percent of everything. This was on sold property that had already been taxed time and time again through various means. Life insurance payouts etc. The government already takes way more than they should.

You know…no matter how we pay for college for all, it still one of the best investments our country can make for our future.
It does specifically say it will be paid for by a wall st. speculation tax.

 

[Skarekrow]

I agree there are corporations who currently fully buy into the "owner - slave" mentally as you put it I currently work for one. But... we are not talking about corporations. ..or werent. We were talking about people being put into certain tax brackets related to their income I thought.

Speaking of taxes…yeah, we can talk about taxes..and the fact the average american does in fact pay of a percentage of their income than say Mr. Trump if you add in the capital gains.
There are slews of links I can show you to prove that.
Something is wrong with that.
When Mitt Romney showed his tax returns being in the oh…14% range…while the average american pays well…here -

• The richest 1% of Americans own 35% of the nation’s wealth. The bottom 80% own just 11% (which is currently at 7%) of the nation’s wealth.
• In the 1950s and 1960s, when the economy was booming, the wealthiest Americans paid a top income tax rate of 91%. Today, the top rate is 43.4%.
• The richest 1% pay an effective federal income tax rate of 24.7% in 2014; someone making an average of $75,000 is paying a 19.7% rate.
• The average federal income tax rate of the richest 400 Americans was just 20 percentin 2009.
• Taxing investment income at a much lower rate than salaries and wages are taxed loses $1.3 trillion over 10 years.
• 1,470 households reported income of more than $1 million in 2009 but paid zero federal income taxes on it.
• CEOs of major corporations earn nearly 300 times more than an average worker.
• 30 percent of income inequality is due to unfair taxes and budget cuts to services and benefits.
• The largest contributor to increasing income inequality has been changes in income from capital gains and dividends.

http://www.americansfortaxfairness....-booklet/fact-sheet-taxing-wealthy-americans/


Pay special attention to the capital gains part.

 

[Skarekrow]

How the rich avoid paying taxes — and what to do about it

• Tax income from investments like income from work. Billionaires like Warren Buffett pay a lower tax rate than millions of Americans because federal taxes on investment income (unearned income) are lower than the taxes many Americans pay on salary and wage income (earned income). Because Buffett gets a high percentage of his total income from investments, he pays a lower income tax rate than his secretary. Currently, the top statutory tax rate on investment income is just 23.8%, but it’s 43.4% on income from work. To reduce this inequity, we should raise tax rates on capital gains and dividends so they match the tax rates on salaries and wages. These loopholes lose $1.3 trillion over 10 years.
• Cap tax deductions at 28% for the wealthiest Americans. The rich are able to get much bigger tax breaks for the same tax deductions taken by the middle class. For example, a wealthy family living in a McMansion gets a much bigger tax deduction on the interest on their large mortgage than a middle-class family gets on the interest on their small mortgage on a two-bedroom house. President Obama has proposed to limit the tax break on deductions that the richest 3% can take to 28 cents on the dollar. In other words, the rich would get the same tax benefit per dollar of deductions as a household in the 28% tax bracket, but not more (as they do now) at the higher 39.6% bracket. This would raise $500 billion over 10 years.
• Strengthen the estate tax. Some of the ultra-rich are able to take advantage of loopholes so they pay almost nothing in inheritance taxes. Others take advantage of the fact that the exemption levels for the estate tax are very high — $5.3 million per individual ($10.6 million per couple). President Obama proposes to restore the exemptions to their 2009 levels — $3.5 million for an individual ($7 million for a couple) taxed at a 45% top rate. This and other reforms would raise $131 billion over 10 years. Only three estates for every 1,000 deaths would be affected.
• Another way to ensure that large inheritances are taxed is to close the income tax loophole that lets wealthy people avoid capital gains taxes by holding their assets until they die. Their heirs then escape paying taxes on these gains. This would raise about $650 billion over 10 years. We should also end specialized trusts that allow families, such as the Waltons who own more than half of Walmart, to completely avoid paying estate and gift taxes.

Other ways to close tax loopholes for the wealthy

• Pass the Buffett Rule. The Buffett rule, inspired by billionaire Warren Buffett, would require millionaires to pay a minimum tax rate of 30%. This will guarantee that the wealthy will not pay a smaller share of their income in taxes than a middle-class family pays. It would raise $72 billionover 10 years.
• Close the Wall Street carried interest loophole. Wealthy private equity managers use a loophole to pay the lower 23.8% capital gains tax rate on the compensation they receive for managing other people’s money. We should close this loophole so that they pay the same rate as others at their income level who receive their compensation as salary. This would raise $17 billion over 10 years.
• Eliminate the payroll tax loophole for S corporations. This loophole allows many self-employed people to use “S corporations” to avoid payroll taxes. Used by Newt Gingrich and John Edwards to avoid taxes, closing this loophole would require treating this income as salary rather than profit, making it subject to payroll taxes. This would raise $25 billion over 10 years.

What conservatives say — and why it’s wrong

Conservatives claim the wealthy are overtaxed. But the overall share of taxes paid by the top 1% and the top 5% is about their share of total income. This shows that the tax system is not progressive when it comes to the wealthy. The richest 1% pay an effective federal income tax rate of 24.7%. That is a little more than the 19.3% rate paid by someone making an average of $75,000. And 1 out of 5 millionaires pays a lower rate than someone making $50,000 to $100,000.
Conservatives claim that the estate tax is a “death tax,” wrongly implying that the tax is paid when every American dies. In fact, the tax primarily is paid by estates of multi-millionaires and billionaires. The vast majority of deaths — 99.9% — do not trigger estate taxes today. - (That should irritate you considering the story you told above EV)
—————————-
News Coverage

• Republican’s Tax Plan Awkwardly Aims at Rich, The New York Times
• Accidental Tax Break Saves Wealthiest Americans $100 Billion, Bloomberg News
• A Family’s Billions, Artfully Sheltered, The New York Times
• Report: Quarter of Millionaires Pay Lower Tax Rate than some in Middle Class, The Washington Post
• Carried Interest Tax Break Comes Under Fire Again, The New York Times

Opinion

• A Minimum Tax for the Wealthy, The New York Times
• Changing the Tax Code Could Help Curb Inequality, The Washington Post
• Failure of the Anti-Tax Philosophy, New Jersey Star-Ledger
• Wealth Over Work, The New York Times
• There’s No Such Thing as a Free Tax Cut, The New York Times
• A Costly and Unjust Perk for Financiers, The New York Times
• Yup, The Buffett-and-His-Secretary Analogy Is Completely Accurate, The Washington Post

Resources

• The Buffett Rule: A Basic Principle of Tax Fairness, The National Economic Council
• Addressing the Need for More Federal Revenue, Citizens for Tax Justice
• How the Government Subsidizes Wealth Inequality, Center for American Progress
• Tax Expenditure Reform: An Essential Ingredient of Needed Deficit Reduction, Center on Budget and Policy Priorities
• Who Pays Taxes in America in 2014?, Citizens for Tax Justice
• Rising Income Inequality and the Role of Shifting Market-Income Distribution, Tax Burdens and Tax Rates, Economic Policy Institute

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Download this document in PDF format.
Drawn from Americans for Tax Fairness’ 2014 Tax Fairness Briefing Booklet.

 

[invisible]

In his campaign, Trump expressed his support of torture. "It works". Now we are seeing torture.

If you voted for Trump, you voted for this to happen. You knew he supported torture, and you voted for him anyway. Don't act surprised, this is what you voted for. You have made innocent people suffer for no reason. I don't owe you my friendship, or even my attention, on this forum or anywhere else. As far as my understanding goes, people who support torture are subhuman. Just making it clear where you stand with me.

 

[acd]

In his campaign, Trump expressed his support of torture. "It works". Now we are seeing torture.

If you voted for Trump, you voted for this to happen. You knew he supported torture, and you voted for him anyway. Don't act surprised, this is what you voted for. You have made innocent people suffer for no reason. I don't owe you my friendship, or even my attention, on this forum or anywhere else. As far as my understanding goes, people who support torture are subhuman. Just making it clear where you stand with me.

I can't tell you how many times my own relatives have said, "Shouldn't have broken the law and crossed the border illegally then!" When there is a story about ICE raiding hospitals and schools. Like as soon as someone crosses the border without documentation they are stripped of their humanity. And people don't even care that these are children suffering, too. Just like the infant in that cell huddled freezing with his mother. It's cruelty. But supporters tout the law to self-righteously overlook the inhumane treatment that goes on. Maybe that helps them sleep at night.

People still continue to blame and dehumanize and scapegoat others for political gain... And millions of people still eat it up.

 

[infinite dreams]

I can't tell you how many times my own relatives have said, "Shouldn't have broken the law and crossed the border illegally then!" When there is a story about ICE raiding hospitals and schools. Like as soon as someone crosses the border without documentation they are stripped of their humanity. And people don't even care that these are children suffering, too. Just like the infant in that cell huddled freezing with his mother. It's cruelty. But supporters tout the law to self-righteously overlook the inhumane treatment that goes on. Maybe that helps them sleep at night.

People still continue to blame and dehumanize and scapegoat others for political gain... And millions of people still eat it up.

It just illustrates the depths people will sink to in order to preserve their own precious worldview. Nationalism (like all forms of discrimination, really) is a genuinely frightening human quality because it ignores any sense of decency in favor of rigid adherence to arbitrary rules and an idealized vision of the status quo (MAGA, aka the ultimate dog whistle, is a prime example).

 

[Eventhorizon]

Define torture. I am completley ok with knocking some teeth out if it will save a million lives or even an inoccent life. Maybe torture is making someone listen the Justin Beiber against their will. Stop being so dramtic.
As for crossing the border. Ship them back and make their countries pay costs associated with capturing a d returning them. Frappin Canadians always sneaking across the border at all hours of the day.
Trump is doing an awesome job. I think when kids say the pledge in school they should finish with "Thanks.President Trump for working to make America great again"!

 

[Skarekrow]

I think when kids say the pledge in school they should finish with "Thanks.President Trump for working to make America great again"!

Heil Trump!

That tariff on iron and aluminum is brilliantly stupid BTW.

 

[the]

Doesn’t seem like torture so much as it is inappropriate treatment. Now if they are trying to extract information about other immigrants or just make them feel hopeless to send a message then I’ll change my mind.

 

[Wyote]

Drumpf is just trying to acclimate the Mexicans. It's hot down there, no way they'll integrate unless we get their core temperature down.

 

[invisible]

Doesn’t seem like torture so much as it is inappropriate treatment. Now if they are trying to extract information about other immigrants or just make them feel hopeless to send a message then I’ll change my mind.

How do you know they're not trying to make them feel hopeless to send a message? Torture doesn't have to be for any special purpose, like for example getting information. It can be a punishment for some supposed wrong, or it can be inflicted purely for fun. I don't think it's possible to say that there is just one single reasoning behind inflicting torture that conclusively qualifies the treatment as torture. It can be any reason, or no reason. In a court of law I don't think that there has always been a coherent reason given for say, why a parent tortured their kid - deciding on torture is more about the treatment, because a torturer can swear "my intentions were good" until they die. It's just cruel, harmful treatment, deliberately inflicting pain and suffering. In this case it's political and directly related to the policies of government.