Trump will win again

Reason said:
Yes but that's due to the brainless belief that there's no difference between Somalians and Germans, and other similarly moronic beliefs

You don't know that the future governments will be tyrannical and if nuclear armed warlords are the future then you will have to contend with that anyways when these houses of cards collapse on thier own.

Besides the lesson of Vietnam is that it doesn't matter how right you are, you can't drop enough bombs or send enough aid to keep a country that has decided to go completely stupid from going completely stupid. There are exceptions maybe but you'll never have this world that you are hoping for. If enough people aim down, then down we go, like it or not. What we can do is aim up, and let the citizens of every nation aspire to the greatest good for thier nation. That is how you minimize the fuckerage of the world.
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No I don't know but promoting democracy is important I think most would agree. If Democracy falls then you either get anarchy or dictators. There isn't really any other options. And either one of them could be stupid enough to drop a nuke on a US city.

I am more of an interventionist because I don't care about 1 country, I care about all countries.

Some have further to go, I don't deny that. But no one is an island and neither is a country. I do believe a rising tide floats all boats.

We need to work with realistic democratic minded people in every country to get a global democracy coalition. We need to supply schools in every country with true scientific facts and the freedom of free thought, not letting people being affected by local propaganda and lies to support their regime or extremist ideologies.

Extremists harm everybody, and you can't stop them without restricting the freedom of your own people. Especially in a multi ethnic multi cultural nation.

Last time people turned a blind eye in Europe the Nazis took power. We need to keep looking, and around the rest of the world, get people to come together and bring down those who oppress their people.

Not through bloodshed or violence, or killing foreign leaders, but by encouraging the people and giving them a reason to improve and cast off those things that hold them back.
 
ReasonEnduring said:
The DNC debate is delicious.

I haven't had this much fun since Ed Miliband went up against David Cameron back in the UK.

Bloomberg appears to be sinking faster theTitanic.

So much drama. Pete and Amy ripping each others throats out. Bernie at the bottom of a pile on. Warren trying to be relevant. Biden actually awake for a change.

I love the horse race so much. Pity it affects us all. This is my Game of Thrones.
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It's fucking clown cars up there. Bernie is the only one I halfway like, but if he were to win he would turn 80 during his first year in office. He's too old.
 
ReasonEnduring said:
No I don't know but promoting democracy is important I think most would agree. If Democracy falls then you either get anarchy or dictators. There isn't really any other options. And either one of them could be stupid enough to drop a nuke on a US city.

I am more of an interventionist because I don't care about 1 country, I care about all countries.

Some have further to go, I don't deny that. But no one is an island and neither is a country. I do believe a rising tide floats all boats.

We need to work with realistic democratic minded people in every country to get a global democracy coalition. We need to supply schools in every country with true scientific facts and the freedom of free thought, not letting people being affected by local propaganda and lies to support their regime or extremist ideologies.

Extremists harm everybody, and you can't stop them without restricting the freedom of your own people. Especially in a multi ethnic multi cultural nation.

Last time people turned a blind eye in Europe the Nazis took power. We need to keep looking, and around the rest of the world, get people to come together and bring down those who oppress their people.

Not through bloodshed or violence, or killing foreign leaders, but by encouraging the people and giving them a reason to improve and cast off those things that hold them back.
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Promoting democracy is one thing, but you can't actually force an entire population to change thier minds. I fundamentally disagree with what you suggest. The people within a country have to want change, otherwise you'll just have another Iraq or Vietnam on hand. I'm sick of debt and war and all that we sacrifice.

If interventionism is required let the EU take their turn at it.
 
Reason said:
Promoting democracy is one thing, but you can't actually force an entire population to change thier minds. I fundamentally disagree with what you suggest. The people within a country have to want change, otherwise you'll just have another Iraq or Vietnam on hand. I'm sick of debt and war and all that we sacrifice.

If interventionism is required let the EU take their turn at it.
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Agreed. You can't force people to take Democracy.. But its not a case of all or nothing. You can encourage it. Like I said, school are a BIG thing. Educationis a BIG thing.

Soft power, not hard power. At least, not where it can be avoided.

China is getting pretty good at it in Africa, the West needs to take a cue from that.

And I don't disagree on the EU taking a greater role. I think they've been too passive.

They pay Turkey to fix their problems rather than taking a hard stance against Assad and Putin in Syria.

I look back at the days of the collapse of Yugoslavia and the UN interventions there.

Thats what I see as successful intervention. Agreement of all Democratic countries to save people from genocide.
 
ReasonEnduring said:
Agreed. You can't force people to take Democracy.. But its not a case of all or nothing. You can encourage it. Like I said, school are a BIG thing. Educationis a BIG thing.
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I don't think these socialist and fascist dictatorships are going to take to you setting up schools preaching democracy in thier countries lol
 
Reason said:
I don't think these socialist and fascist dictatorships are going to take to you setting up schools preaching democracy in thier countries lol
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No, but its the start.

I'm thinking Saudi Arabia. Currently a glorified Dictatorship but any ally. Dump a few more Moderate Schools in their country and modernise them, move away from extremism.

If they don't like start applying more pressure.

Do what we're doing with Russia, target government individuals and prevent them doing business. Not going to change things over night but makes their life more difficult, makes it less profitable to pro up the regime.

This also prevents the people suffering, you want to avoid being the bad guy as much as possible. Target the government as much as possible, not the people. Where possible fund Pro Democracy groups and circumvent government restrictions on Media, Truth in News and supply money and resources to hard hit communities, ensure they know who helped them.

Consider targeting key industries IE Oil, Technology, Gems etc etc. Things propping up the current government's power.

It will force them at worst to use third parties to shift their goods, increasing costs and helping promote competitors in democratic countries, at best cause their businesses to collapse.

If there is active genocide of individual ethnic groups, get a coalition for intervention. The Kurds are good example.

Just by having US Soldiers in Kurdistan prevented Turkey from invading. What happened the moment they left? Turkey invaded and butched thousands.

Simply having US or EU soldiers on the ground will deter a LOT of aggression because of the fear of escalation. Also see South Korea and Taiwan.

You need the US and EU working in unison though. I agree the US can't do it alone, but the US + EU results in probably the most powerful military coalition on the planet.

The EU can probably take Russia by themselves. Same with the US and China. BUt with the EU and US working together neither Russia or China will intervene.

If this is successful eventually world leaders will see that being Pro Democracy and Pro Business is the way to go.

Eventually Pro Democracy and Pro Business interests in China and Russia will push to the surface, and provided the US and EU give financial aid when this happens (unlike what happened with the collapse of the Soviet Union and RUssia...) things will work out fairly well.
 
ReasonEnduring said:
No, but its the start.

I'm thinking Saudi Arabia. Currently a glorified Dictatorship but any ally. Dump a few more Moderate Schools in their country and modernise them, move away from extremism.

If they don't like start applying more pressure.

Do what we're doing with Russia, target government individuals and prevent them doing business. Not going to change things over night but makes their life more difficult, makes it less profitable to pro up the regime.

This also prevents the people suffering, you want to avoid being the bad guy as much as possible. Target the government as much as possible, not the people. Where possible fund Pro Democracy groups and circumvent government restrictions on Media, Truth in News and supply money and resources to hard hit communities, ensure they know who helped them.

Consider targeting key industries IE Oil, Technology, Gems etc etc. Things propping up the current government's power.

It will force them at worst to use third parties to shift their goods, increasing costs and helping promote competitors in democratic countries, at best cause their businesses to collapse.

If there is active genocide of individual ethnic groups, get a coalition for intervention. The Kurds are good example.

Just by having US Soldiers in Kurdistan prevented Turkey from invading. What happened the moment they left? Turkey invaded and butched thousands.

Simply having US or EU soldiers on the ground will deter a LOT of aggression because of the fear of escalation. Also see South Korea and Taiwan.

You need the US and EU working in unison though. I agree the US can't do it alone, but the US + EU results in probably the most powerful military coalition on the planet.

The EU can probably take Russia by themselves. Same with the US and China. BUt with the EU and US working together neither Russia or China will intervene.

If this is successful eventually world leaders will see that being Pro Democracy and Pro Business is the way to go.

Eventually Pro Democracy and Pro Business interests in China and Russia will push to the surface, and provided the US and EU give financial aid when this happens (unlike what happened with the collapse of the Soviet Union and RUssia...) things will work out fairly well.
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I don't think you're engaging with what I'm saying. The reason why there aren't already schools in all these backward countries educating in the western traditions of liberalism is that they do not want them. Moreover they won't even tolerate them. The US cannot stay in every country around the world for decades on end nursing it to maturity because of the cost in dollars let alone blood. What you're suggesting just isn't possible in a practical sense.

I feel like we're going in circles so I'll conclude my argument on isolationism here and let you have the last word, then hopefully others can jump in/get the thread a little more back on topic.

Oh and @ReasonEnduring thank you for being civil.
 
Reason said:
I don't think you're engaging with what I'm saying. The reason why there aren't already schools in all these backward countries educating in the western traditions of liberalism is that they do not want them. Moreover they won't even tolerate them. The US cannot stay in every country around the world for decades on end nursing it to maturity because of the cost in dollars let alone blood. What you're suggesting just isn't possible in a practical sense.

I feel like we're going in circles so I'll conclude my argument on isolationism here and let you have the last word, then hopefully others can jump in/get the thread a little more back on topic.

Oh and @ReasonEnduring thank you for being civil.
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No problem. I enjoy a healthy debate that isn't screaming.

I disagree with the idea that they don't want Western Traditions. We didn't always have these traditions either. The Roman Empire ran on slavery and the concept of Barbarianism. The inquisition burned people alive. We had a war that lasted 100 years between Christian religious sects. Science was seen as blasphemy and against the will of God (still is in some places in the US).

How did we get to where we are? The Enlightenment. How did that occur? Education.

All people of all countries are dumb. Of course they are, we are BORN dumb. Children learn from their parents, and inherit the good or bad ideas their parents bestow upon them.

Its true its harder to change the minds of those already adult and who have fixed ideas. Sway those we can but I'm not going to pretent everyone will accept it.

But the secret is the youth are the key. Raise the next generation to be better and you make a better future for them. Compare a lot of non-Communist Asian nations and how much further they are along compared to their neighbours. Japan,South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong. Great places to live and visit, freer and fairer than say China or North Korea. These lessons can be applied to the Middel East, Africa, Latin American and beyond.

People WANT to be free, but they don't want to die needlessly. If they have the support, they will move forward, and the young will slowly adopt more Liberalism.

I'm not saying it will be eay or it will happen over night. It requires a lot of faith and a lot of buy in over generations. I don't expect to ever see it in my lifetime, if it ever happens.

Even today in Iran the young are chaffing against the ideologies of their parents and grandparents. They just need help and support and great advancements could be made.

But then again, the US spent blood and dollars preventing Nazi Germany for dominating Europe. They stopped Communism from spreading to every corner of the planet. The mindset of making the world a better place isn't a bad one to my mind.

And the US has many benefits from doing so. The US Passport is one of the best in the world, Visa Free travel to many countries. US Companies are some of the most used in the world.

But if your mind will not be swayed I will respect that. But in this instance we shall agree to disagree.
 
I'm sorry to keep making these 'know it all' corrective posts in response to you, @ReasonEnduring, but I tend to disagree with a lot of what you say on factual/logical grounds. However, that doesn't mean that I don't appreciate what you're saying - I really enjoy your perspectives and I find them very interesting. :)

ReasonEnduring said:
China is getting pretty good at it in Africa, the West needs to take a cue from that.
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? The whole world is aligned to the West because of its soft power - China is simply taking a cue from us and making its first steps into doing it.

ReasonEnduring said:
I'm thinking Saudi Arabia. Currently a glorified Dictatorship but any ally. Dump a few more Moderate Schools in their country and modernise them, move away from extremism.
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?? The current Saudi regime is a direct result of Western interference and is supported by the West. The US wants it that way, still does, and always has. We agreed to prop up the House of Saud and help to spread Wahabism (e.g. into Afghanistan which ultimately toppled the monarchy) in exchange for secure access to its oil. Furthermore, destabilising Saudi Arabia would have a disastrous effect on the current cold war in the Middle East between them and Iran. We don't want that.

Have a look at The Quincy Agreement.

ReasonEnduring said:
The US Passport is one of the best in the world, Visa Free travel to many countries.
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The US Passport is one of the worst in the world of comparable first-world countries.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
I'm sorry to keep making these 'know it all' corrective posts in response to you, @ReasonEnduring, but I tend to disagree with a lot of what you say on factual/logical grounds. However, that doesn't mean that I don't appreciate what you're saying - I really enjoy your perspectives and I find them very interesting. :)


? The whole world is aligned to the West because of its soft power - China is simply taking a cue from us and making its first steps into doing it.


?? The current Saudi regime is a direct result of Western interference and is supported by the West. The US wants it that way, still does, and always has. We agreed to prop up the House of Saud and help to spread Wahabism (e.g. into Afghanistan which ultimately toppled the monarchy) in exchange for secure access to its oil. Furthermore, destabilising Saudi Arabia would have a disastrous effect on the current cold war in the Middle East between them and Iran. We don't want that.

Have a look at The Quincy Agreement.


The US Passport is one of the worst in the world of comparable first-world countries.
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No problem. I welcome corrections when I am incorrect. I'd rather be wrong and corrected than blunder on blindly into idiocy. Though some of my thoughts come from my own experiences and points of view.

1) True, soft power has been used in the past and is still being used, but I propose using it more aggressively. Instead of mostly leaving countries to their own cultures and devices, make more proactive attempts to bring them more in line with the West and our way of living.

Some might call this Empire Building or Interfering with a country's internal politics, but the fact is countries like China and Russia are doing it anyway (*cough* elections *cough*) and holding the moral highground doesn't matter if you lose. Victors can beg forgiveness, the Defeated can ask for nothing.

Now, the difficult bit is making sure SOME in government don't use this interferance for their own business interests.

It should be used to furthering Democracy and Liberalism only. Once a people have the ability to have free and fair elections and minorities aren't persecuted - hands off. Let nature take its course.

2)
Oh, don't I know it about the House of Saud. Again, we should be leaning harder on them to Liberalise.

We don't want to actively overthrow them or ISIS Mk 2 comes in, but we need to combat extreme Wahhabism and encourage the more moderate elements whilst subtly suppressing the more extreme ones. Fund more Moderate Mosques for example.

And if they don't like it, what are they going to do? They need the West to combat Iran, can't exactly turn their back on us. They need us more than we need them. We should use that leverage.

3)
The US Passport gets my wife into the UK for 6 months without a visa. The same for many European countries I believe, Visa Free Travel (I think Germany is on the list...). I on the otherhand as a UK citizen need a Visa Waiver for a 3 Month US trip, or now we're out of the EU some sort of Visa to travel to European countries.
 
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At the same time... None of the other candidates' following seems to have the same fervor and devotion to them as Sanders does. He's a populist candidate potentially going against a populist president. For entertainment sake I guess we will have to miss out on watching Trump and Biden just yelling insults at each other and challenging one another to push up matches on the debate stage... Which kind of sucks lol.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
Lol, Corbyn lost his balls. Bernie is much more charismatic and, actually, has more conviction.
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I fear they are closer than many think.

And on the average the typical US voter is more Right-Wing than the UK is.

Plus his policies include giving free benefits and healthcare to illegal immigrants. That wouldn't fly in the UK let alone the US.
 
acd said:
At the same time... None of the other candidates' following seems to have the same fervor and devotion to them as Sanders does. He's a populist candidate potentially going against a populist president. For entertainment sake I guess we will have to miss out on watching Trump and Biden just yelling insults at each other and challenging one another to push up matches on the debate stage... Which kind of sucks lol.
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Lolol.

In terms of the longue durée generational game, though, a Bernie-Trump match up would do wonders for actually platforming traditional social democratic policies (and moving the left away from this woke bs that helps no-one), so that the next guy to come along would have a much better chance of running on a properly reformist ticket.

On the other hand, it might just further serve to polarise the US at a time when it really needs rebinding.
 
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