[PAX] UK's EU referendum Brexit

[Lavendel]

The Tory government wasn't elected by a majority, but by its more influential constituences. The Popular vote ended up as 11,334,576 votes for the Conservatives with 330 seats and Labor 9,347,304 votes with 256 Those numbers doesn't add up, and that is certainly not a majority vote. The problem with democracy is clearly not with the EU, but within UKs own politics.
You say the EU is full of people that were never elected, but in most countries we elect our EU representatives. From a quick search it appears to me UK does not let its public vote for who to represent them. Once again, it seems clear to me that the democratic issue is with the UK and not the EU.
Yes, the UK could write its own workers laws, but why put ourselves in a position where the laws can be rewritten lawfully in a way that could harm workers more, because lets not kid ourselves, our politicians are driven by greed more so than the wellbeing of its population.

 

[JJJA]

I'm not allowed to vote as a swedish national living in england, but I hope UK will vote stay. If UK is not satisfied with the EU deal, then we have to remain to change, we can't change anything by leaving. But I also believe the referendum is a simple diversion from the Tories to direct frustration with the current political situation onto the EU. The economical and social difficulties are not EU's fault, but the result of ever growing capitalism and its oncoming collapse, and by leaving our government will be given free range to worsen food standards, workers rights, human rights, social migration and economical, financial and trade agreements. We don't have a say if we are not part of the agreements. The EU was formed as a result of the second world war and the affects and deaths nationalist idealism brought upon the world, the EU was formed to protect its allies. To leave is to let history repeat itself again.

NATO is what protects us from disunity. The EU is simply a political bloc. To let history repeat itself would be to stay locked within a corrupt union of political elites that are not even ELECTED. The UK is unable to make any free trade agreements with non-EU states, as defined by the EU's common market policy and its tariffs. I don't quite understand your logic in this. There is no nationalist idealism in wanting to control your own affairs and to have more democracy; the Second World War was fought to defend democracy. For shame that you would use the war to defend such a corrupt system.

 

[Lavendel]

NATO is what protects us from disunity. The EU is simply a political bloc. To let history repeat itself would be to stay locked within a corrupt union of political elites that are not even ELECTED. The UK is unable to make any free trade agreements with non-EU states, as defined by the EU's common market policy and its tariffs. I don't quite understand your logic in this. There is no nationalist idealism in wanting to control your own affairs and to have more democracy; the Second World War was fought to defend democracy. For shame that you would use the war to defend such a corrupt system.

I think you need to read my two posts again before commenting. Also, Shame that i use the war to defend such a corrupt system? No, I was stating a historical fact. What you are contributing this discussion with seem only to consist of regurgitated platitudes used when someone has nothing real to add.

 

[JJJA]

I think you need to read my two posts again before commenting. Also, Shame that i use the war to defend such a corrupt system? No, I was stating a historical fact. What you are contributing this discussion with seem only to consist of regurgitated platitudes used when someone has nothing real to add.

You said that politicians are greedy and self-serving, and yet you defend the EU's unelected ones. You mention the EU representatives, and I have already explained how they have no hard power over their member states; the Commission has the power to overrule and has done so on many occasions. It is literally an echo chamber. It seems that you only call politicians greedy and self-serving when they are politicians you disagree with (such as the 'tories'). That's called a vested interest and it's not very helpful when people are still undecided on this subject.

The difference between British politicians and the EU ones: The British actually elects theirs to do meaningful reform. If we don't want them anymore, we can elect them out of office. The EU Commission cannot be elected out of office. You also suggest that British MPs could rewrite our laws; this is true, but they would need to debate such laws, as well as demand a majority vote on it. The EU Commission does not rely on such procedures, and is therefore corrupt by-definition. I'm staggered that so many want this to continue...

 

[Breeze]

Okay so I need to call JJJA out on being a wanker in chat.

I voted because its my right to vote to stay in the EU, just because I don't think the same as you doesn't mean I shouldn't have voted at all. The fact that you would say such a thing indicates to me that you honestly don't believe in free speech or democracy or you simply don't understand the concepts.
You moan saying that people who run the EU aren't elected yet you can't stand the idea of someone voting differently to you, what the hell do you honestly want?

I think you need to understand we're not an empire anymore and we can't just churn out money.
We're a small island nation that by some divine intervention are somehow still doing really well in the world.

My honest thought is it shouldn't be the UK voting to leave or remain but rather a vote on the EU countries' side to see if they even want to keep us.

 

[brightmoon]

I have no right to vote in this election, funny thing is I could actually vote in a UK election, being a Commonwealth Citizen which I did not know until now.

 

[JJJA]

Okay so I need to call JJJA out on being a wanker in chat.

I voted because its my right to vote to stay in the EU, just because I don't think the same as you doesn't mean I shouldn't have voted at all. The fact that you would say such a thing indicates to me that you honestly don't believe in free speech or democracy or you simply don't understand the concepts.
You moan saying that people who run the EU aren't elected yet you can't stand the idea of someone voting differently to you, what the hell do you honestly want?

I think you need to understand we're not an empire anymore and we can't just churn out money.
We're a small island nation that by some divine intervention are somehow still doing really well in the world.

My honest thought is it shouldn't be the UK voting to leave or remain but rather a vote on the EU countries' side to see if they even want to keep us.

View attachment 28156

How is this calling me out? I asked you a simple question on why you voted remain because you claimed that "both sides" were mud-slinging. Telling me to "fuck off" after I leave (because I had a family engagement) is nice, isn't it?

What are you trying to prove? I was trying to engage in a discussion. Asking you a simple question. Giving you my opinion. What part of what I said implies that I don't like free speech? You need to read the forum more; I've defended free speech more than anyone on this forum. It sounds like you feel bitter. You haven't proved anything new here. The forum thinks I'm an idiot for voting to leave; nothing new there, either. You gave me the impression that you voted on a whim of very low information, and therefore saw no reason why voting was the best decision for you. I wasn't trying to force my opinion down your throat. I don't even know why I am explaining myself, but when people get so irritated that they screen-shot conversations with your name, I have to reply.

What are you trying to call out, here? That I'm asking you uncomfortable questions? I've been told too many times I'm an idiot (in different words) for voting to leave. I'll take the vote whatever way it goes; to suggest that based on my anger at the constant scare-stories I've heard from lying politicians means I'm against anyone that is voting remain is clutching at more straws.

I wasn't even getting angry at you. If you think that was my intention, you've misled yourself. But it is rather nice of you to now express your rather low opinion of Britain as a nation.

Do your worst. I don't give a toss. The amount of dishonesty in this referendum has reached a new level with the remain campaign. They used the death of a murdered MP (Jo Cox) to campaign for her cause of open borders and the dismantling of our own sovereignty. Constant media coverage of her death, with her husband coming out and implying that the Leave Campaign's 'hate' was somehow responsible. I've witnessed the remain camp use the party politics of campaign posters to scare more people into believing that the leave vote is somehow 'racist'. This hit me where it really hurt, as over the past 3 years I've watched the EU constantly ignore the wishes of its member states and appoint failed politicians and civil servants to expand its outreach of unelected, centralised powers. That's my view, and I fully expect a remain vote majority tomorrow. Enjoy it.

 

[detectivepope]

How is this calling me out? I asked you a simple question on why you voted remain because you claimed that "both sides" were mud-slinging. Telling me to "fuck off" after I leave (because I had a family engagement) is nice, isn't it?

What are you trying to prove? I was trying to engage in a discussion. Asking you a simple question. Giving you my opinion. What part of what I said implies that I don't like free speech? It sounds like you feel bitter. You haven't proved anything new here. The forum thinks I'm an idiot for voting to leave; nothing new there, either. You gave me the impression that you voted on a whim of very low information, and therefore saw no reason why voting was the best decision for you. I wasn't trying to force my opinion down your throat. I don't even know why I am explaining myself, but when people get so irritated that they screen-shot conversations with your name, I have to reply.

What are you trying to call out, here? That I'm asking you uncomfortable questions? I've been told too many times I'm an idiot (in different words) for voting to leave. I'll take the vote whatever way it goes; to suggest that based on my anger at the constant scare-stories I've heard from lying politicians means I'm against anyone that is voting remain is clutching at more straws.

I wasn't even getting angry at you. If you think that was my intention, you've misled yourself. But it is rather nice of you to now express your rather low opinion of Britain as a nation.

I came on to the chat last night out of boredom and actually wanted to avoid this subject, but you decided to talk behind peoples backs without even knowing whom I was. I didn't even want to engage on the subject however you decided to not give a reason beyond calling me clueless and then fucking off the second you had no point. I agree I had a harsh tone but at least argue your point beyond not quoting any actual legislation or study. So what if fishing is fucked, you think that'll improve on an out vote. Norway struggle with their fishing industry because they are not in the EU, you think a none oil rich country with no primary industry will have such rights?

The fact 2 people have saved chats with you because of how rude you are proves something.

 

[JJJA]

I came on to the chat last night out of boredom and actually wanted to avoid this subject, but you decided to talk behind peoples backs without even knowing whom I was. I didn't even want to engage on the subject however you decided to not give a reason beyond calling me clueless and then fucking off the second you had no point. I agree I had a harsh tone but at least argue your point beyond not quoting any actual legislation or study. So what if fishing is fucked, you think that'll improve on an out vote. Norway struggle with their fishing industry because they are not in the EU, you think a none oil rich country with no primary industry will have such rights?

The fact 2 people have saved chats with you because of how rude you are proves something.

That looks to me like a reasonable discussion to me.

This is just a pathetic hit-job attempt. What you failed to screen-shot was a section of the conversation in-which you kept asking if I was one of the 'leave' people that you claimed were hateful, and including some colourful words, too.

Do you people not have anything better to do with your time? Are you trying to get me infracted, or something?

Your claims are false, and I can't actually believe I am replying to such lies.

Thanks for derailing the thread. This is making me facepalm.

 

[Elegant Winter]

That looks to me like a reasonable discussion to me.

This is just a pathetic hit-job attempt. What you failed to screen-shot was a section of the conversation in-which you kept asking if I was one of the 'leave' people that you claimed were hateful, and including some colourful words, too.

Do you people not have anything better to do with your time? Are you trying to get me infracted, or something?

There is a lot worthy of hatred in the world. More people should be hateful.

 

[JJJA]

[MENTION=5650]Breeze[/MENTION] and [MENTION=2800]detectivepope[/MENTION]

If you both can gain the support of a mod, I will delete my account and never infect the forum with my bile again.

Happy hunting.

 

[detectivepope]

Colourful words? I went in being silly and you went all miserable and assumed I was stupid. Still no point, you haven't given no insight to policy or legislation beyond vague descriptions of what is false. Like I said last night, no plan is still no plan. Actually go to what laws are written and quote them to me, I had the common curiosity to have back up beyond a bunch of Sun newspaper blurbs. I actually would vote leave if there were any plan or sense to it. Leaving only changes things negatively because there will be no planned way of dealing with having no support, which we went in to because we do need it. The UK doesn't have the land, resource or infrastructure to support itself independently and that's because we have relied on other nations for centuries. Before the EU we just took it, when the empire literally striked back (haha) we were dead in the water.
You want look at the transition between the Empire and the EU and we had a population of 10 million less. We are an island nation that needs foreign help to exist, if we can't get it from near by we are fucked. The US has already stated that we would be at the back of the queue if we were to leave and after that we only have super corrupt China. Canada would have to increase its population and size by at least double to deal with demand if we were to go with them alone. Australia is way to far away for reasonable trade and again doesn't have the output for it. The only other option would be corrupt African states. Short term the leave is bad and long term its worse, that has nothing to do with being left or perceived as a bully. Having an opinion is fine, but for no minute think people will just agree especially when you give zero backing.
Its not bile its just passion, Christ we've all believed something that might be dodgy. In fact how does one learn without contrast? To moderate this would be undemocratic and peevish.

 

[Elegant Winter]

Colorful words? I went in being silly and you went all miserable and assumed I was stupid. Still no point, you haven't given no insight to policy or legislation beyond vague descriptions of what is false. Like I said last night, no plan is still no plan. Actually go to what laws are written and quote them to me, I had the common curiosity to have back up beyond a bunch of Sun newspaper blurbs. I actually would vote leave if there were any plan or sense to it. Leaving only changes things negatively because there will be no planned way of dealing with having no support, which we went in to because we do need it. The UK doesn't have the land, resource or infrastructure to support itself independently and that's because we have relied on other nations for centuries. Before the EU we just took it, when the empire literally struck back we were dead in the water.

You want look at the transition between the Empire and the EU and we had a population of 10 million less. We are an island nation that needs foreign help to exist, if we can't get it from near by we are fucked. The US has already stated that we would be at the back of the queue if we were to leave and after that we only have super corrupt China. Canada would have to increase its population and size by at least double to deal with demand if we were to go with them alone. Australia is way to far away for reasonable trade and again doesn't have the output for it. The only other option would be corrupt African states. Short term the leave is bad and long term its worse, that has nothing to do with being left or perceived as a bully. Having an opinion is fine, but for no minute think people will just agree especially when you give zero backing.

Its not bile its just passion, Christ we've all believed something that might be dodgy. In fact how does one learn without contrast? To moderate this would be undemocratic and peevish.

Colonize Africa again.

All your problems are solved.

 

[detectivepope]

Colonize Africa again.

All your problems are solved.

Thank you Nazi McNazi. We bombed your types in the war, it was fun and we won.

 

[Elegant Winter]

Thank you Nazi McNazi. We bombed your types in the war, it was fun and we won.

Rude.

 

[detectivepope]

Rude.

and crude, you forgot.

 

[CindyLou]

Why were those chats worth saving and posting on the forum? That seems incredibly inappropriate. He wasn't even being an asshole. Is this a joke?

 

[Elegant Winter]

Why were those chats worth saving and posting on the forum? That seems incredibly inappropriate. He wasn't even being an asshole. Is this a joke?

They love drama.

 

[brightmoon]

Ohh this discussion is getting heated now.

I'll go back to why the British should not exit. You have to be careful about trade. Right now the world is divided into trading blocs. Your country is simply not bid enough to go it alone and be successful at it. Every country in the world is dependent on trade and being a small unaffiliated country puts you at a grave disadvantage. It also weakens Europe as a trading bloc because the UK is a bid part of it. I don't there's much denying the EU needs reforms but I don't understand why those reforms can't come from the inside. There are also great advantages having free movements, common standards, and greater negotiating powers with other countries, not only economically but politically.

The injection of immigration into the debate by the Leave campaign is a disgrace. I hate this new brand of "identity politics" as practised by Trump, UKIP, The National Front and others. Its the politics of fear, fear of the outsider of the other culture, fear of "loss of identity" which to me is hearkening back to the the "good ol' days" when everyone know their place in the social order. Just remember the good ol days weren't so good for everyone.

With racism being suggested and white supremacy actually being openly promoted things are bound to get a bit heated. Those opinions belong in the past. They are are losing side of history and need to go back into the dust bin where they belong.

 

[Elegant Winter]

Ohh this discussion is getting heated now.

I'll go back to why the British should not exit. You have to be careful about trade. Right now the world is divided into trading blocs. Your country is simply not bid enough to go it alone and be successful at it. Every country in the world is dependent on trade and being a small unaffiliated country puts you at a grave disadvantage. It also weakens Europe as a trading bloc because the UK is a bid part of it. I don't there's much denying the EU needs reforms but I don't understand why those reforms can't come from the inside. There are also great advantages having free movements, common standards, and greater negotiating powers with other countries, not only economically but politically.

The injection of immigration into the debate by the Leave campaign is a disgrace. I hate this new brand of "identity politics" as practised by Trump, UKIP, The National Front and others. Its the politics of fear, fear of the outsider of the other culture, fear of "loss of identity" which to me is hearkening back to the the "good ol' days" when everyone know their place in the social order. Just remember the good ol days weren't so good for everyone.

With racism being suggested and white supremacy actually being openly promoted things are bound to get a bit heated. Those opinions belong in the past. They are are losing side of history and need to go back into the dust bin where they belong.