Undecided voters

Well, competency matters. I don't know about their intention, maybe they think they're doing good. But in my opinion they didn't deal with Russia situation well at all. They should've either be more harsh with Russia at the beginning or they should be seeking a ceasefire now. Instead they are using Ukraine and their people to fight Russia. Anthony Blinken pretty much said as much. Well, he said something like all the money we are sending to Ukraine is coming back to us, which I read as "we are happy that Ukraine is fighting this war for us and weakening Russia". Fair enough, but let's call spade a spade. They don't give a damn about Ukraine and it is not our ally at all. Ukraine is just an unfortunate pawn in this game. And if you mention ceasefire, they bring up Hitler again, compare you with Neville Chamberlain and cancel you.

You tell me, why is Ukraine such an important ally to the USA?

So in conclusion, I have more cynical view than you. That's how I see it anyway. A lot of self interest, deception, wilful blindness and desire to control what cannot be controlled.
It's easy to in retrospect to be critical of actions that policymakers take in foreign affairs and notice that the outcome was not good, or not what it was meant to do, and to say "we knew this all along". I think the reality of it is that geopolitical affairs are extremely volatile and unpredictable. When something goes well, everything's fine. We tend to look at foreign affair leaders as people that are infallible, or think that because the stakes are so high that they can't afford to make a mistake. And while that's true, I think leeway has to be put in place that sometimes we are simply responding to actions of other countries and we have to make a quick decisions. To act, or not to act? And then what is the consequence of not acting, because there are consequences, sometimes the consequences of those actions aren't realized until years later and at that point people who argue the correlation can't convince a lot of people this is that case, because so much time has passed that people have virtually forgotten about it.

Not to mention that there are always unintended consequences of every decision we make, which then we have to solve those problems. It is not cut and dry and easy. On top of that, as a U.S. citizen there is a lot of information about geopolitics that we do not have for national security reasons. I've had the same experience in my job- there are all sorts of reports and decisions I am not made privy to, and so sometimes I will be told we have to do x y and z but the reason why is not information I am able to access. When I question it and go against it, sometimes I am right, but also sometimes I am humbled by the fact that other people knew more than I did about it and there was a reason the information I was lacking was not provided to me.

We are basically scraping the iceberg here, there is tons of insider information that the public will never know that plays into the stability of our country and I understand the need to question authority and tear it down, but it is frustrating because when those structures are destroyed, you'll miss them. There is only so far being anti-establishment can bring you before you realize that some level of rule and order provides safety and stability and that without the law to uphold it, you are actually worse off than before.
 

I liked this video and it sort of highlights my problem.

Harris' small business proposition to give some tax breaks to small businesses is great. But I still think unrealized gains, if expanded, could be problematic. For now it only impacts a certain percent of the population but that might change. Then again, she is at least finding a way to get money to pay for a lot of the new social programs she wants to implement rather than rely on the deficit spending we have been doing. She is also going to implement expansion of the child tax credit, but since I have no children, this does not apply to me. However this may be a good thing for the country in terms of encouraging population increase given the demographic age issue we have.

Trump's tax policies, allowing people to deduct their state taxes from federal, is very good. A lot of people are paying such a large amount of their income on taxes and it would bring relief to them. (SALT). So this would take the cap away from the deduction.

Both Trump and Harris agree that tips should not be taxed so they do not vary on some issues.

They touch on their differences in trying to address the housing crisis but there is a much better in depth video on his made by real estate agents which I lean on more.

I think they leaned a little right, but I do think they tried to fairly discuss what each politician is going to do. They are so great at acknowledging that, actually, there is no universal 'right' policy for everyone but that mostly how people are voting is what will protect their own interests. That makes sense to me and you hope there are enough people in population who share your same interests to allow them to be protected, but if that's not the case, then that's just how democracy works. So often, no matter what side, there is a deep moralization of people's interests- that someone is a good person or bad person for attempting to protect their own interests or not protecting the interests of groups they may or may not be a part of. This is a tool of social currency that, if you do not have the upper hand, may allow you to protect your interests so I understand why people are doing it. But I don't think I like social currency being used, it feels manipulative to me. If you cannot make your case without moralization then it doesn't sway me. Maybe it sways other, but not me.
 
It's easy to in retrospect to be critical of actions that policymakers take in foreign affairs and notice that the outcome was not good, or not what it was meant to do, and to say "we knew this all along". I think the reality of it is that geopolitical affairs are extremely volatile and unpredictable. When something goes well, everything's fine. We tend to look at foreign affair leaders as people that are infallible, or think that because the stakes are so high that they can't afford to make a mistake. And while that's true, I think leeway has to be put in place that sometimes we are simply responding to actions of other countries and we have to make a quick decisions. To act, or not to act? And then what is the consequence of not acting, because there are consequences, sometimes the consequences of those actions aren't realized until years later and at that point people who argue the correlation can't convince a lot of people this is that case, because so much time has passed that people have virtually forgotten about it.

Not to mention that there are always unintended consequences of every decision we make, which then we have to solve those problems. It is not cut and dry and easy. On top of that, as a U.S. citizen there is a lot of information about geopolitics that we do not have for national security reasons. I've had the same experience in my job- there are all sorts of reports and decisions I am not made privy to, and so sometimes I will be told we have to do x y and z but the reason why is not information I am able to access. When I question it and go against it, sometimes I am right, but also sometimes I am humbled by the fact that other people knew more than I did about it and there was a reason the information I was lacking was not provided to me.

I know all that, no need to highlight every time how difficult and complex the job is and that we have asymmetrical information. And I'm not speaking in retrospect, I was critical from the beginning of the war.

Eventually we have to take a stand, even you yourself took one by saying you like Harris because she's less likely to pull out of the war(s). You allowed yourself to form a conclusion that this is better than the alternative (despite all the provisions that you mentioned). Well, I am doing the same, just that I take the other side.

We are basically scraping the iceberg here, there is tons of insider information that the public will never know that plays into the stability of our country and I understand the need to question authority and tear it down, but it is frustrating because when those structures are destroyed, you'll miss them. There is only so far being anti-establishment can bring you before you realize that some level of rule and order provides safety and stability and that without the law to uphold it, you are actually worse off than before.

I agree, but I was not advocating bringing everything down. We were talking about a specific issue, that's all :)

Yeah my opinion is that the current establishment/deep state is pretty corrupt but that doesn't mean I want a Mad Max scenario. I would simply prefer an anti-establishment candidate like Trump and his advisors.
 
Last edited:
I think they leaned a little right, but I do think they tried to fairly discuss what each politician is going to do. They are so great at acknowledging that, actually, there is no universal 'right' policy for everyone but that mostly how people are voting is what will protect their own interests. That makes sense to me and you hope there are enough people in population who share your same interests to allow them to be protected, but if that's not the case, then that's just how democracy works. So often, no matter what side, there is a deep moralization of people's interests- that someone is a good person or bad person for attempting to protect their own interests or not protecting the interests of groups they may or may not be a part of. This is a tool of social currency that, if you do not have the upper hand, may allow you to protect your interests so I understand why people are doing it. But I don't think I like social currency being used, it feels manipulative to me. If you cannot make your case without moralization then it doesn't sway me. Maybe it sways other, but not me.

Yeah I listened 10 minutes and they seem pretty reasonable.

Moralization is again something I notice more on the left. It seems to be that being on the left gives people a certain sense of security and comfort that they're on the "right side" and they don't need to ever question themselves and their motives and presuppositions.

They talk about embracing difference and diversity, but I see much more hate coming from left to Trump supporters than the other way around. But I need to say that I'm not actually living in the US so this might be just my social media bubble.

Certainly in 2016/2020 elections I sensed a lot of moral superiority from the left towards those Trump voters. This time the he right is much more powerful online, certainly on Twitter.

But I digress...
 
Yeah I listened 10 minutes and they seem pretty reasonable.

Moralization is again something I notice more on the left. It seems to be that being on the left gives people a certain sense of security and comfort that they're on the "right side" and they don't need to ever question themselves and their motives and presuppositions.

They talk about embracing difference and diversity, but I see much more hate coming from left to Trump supporters than the other way around. But I need to say that I'm not actually living in the US so this might be just my social media bubble.

Certainly in 2016/2020 elections I sensed a lot of moral superiority from the left towards those Trump voters. This time the he right is much more powerful online, certainly on Twitter.

But I digress...
I think it's equally on both sides at least on polarizing/social issues the predominate the news. We all do it, I do it too . I try not to do it but I do it. I guess the ability to acknowledge your bias (which you did well in the previous reply to my war stuff) is the most critical aspect of whether or not the moralizing becomes toxic or not. I'm not sure we can change our bias or even had control of it in the first place since most of that is based on life experience which leads you to value what you value. It is just so exhausting. You want to try to find a fact-based approach and once you dig into facts you realize, this is the reason people take a morality based approach-- morality is subjective so you don't have to address contradicting information, you just "know" or "believe" it. Facts based, not to mention that its easy to twist facts anyway, but usually fact based will find you down a road of what you hold dear being squashed by the facts and you being forced to give up on something that was important to you. But at least it was honest, no matter how crushing it was. Or more realistically, facts cannot actually determine anything coherently and you can't find a truth so you are left in the dark with it all.
 
I think it's equally on both sides at least on polarizing/social issues the predominate the news. We all do it, I do it too . I try not to do it but I do it. I guess the ability to acknowledge your bias (which you did well in the previous reply to my war stuff) is the most critical aspect of whether or not the moralizing becomes toxic or not. I'm not sure we can change our bias or even had control of it in the first place since most of that is based on life experience which leads you to value what you value. It is just so exhausting. You want to try to find a fact-based approach and once you dig into facts you realize, this is the reason people take a morality based approach-- morality is subjective so you don't have to address contradicting information, you just "know" or "believe" it. Facts based, not to mention that its easy to twist facts anyway, but usually fact based will find you down a road of what you hold dear being squashed by the facts and you being forced to give up on something that was important to you. But at least it was honest, no matter how crushing it was. Or more realistically, facts cannot actually determine anything coherently and you can't find a truth so you are left in the dark with it all.

Yeah. That's interesting. I'm certainly aware of my bias but I don't sense in myself any moralization. Maybe I don't know what it means exactly. I certainly don't think I'm a better person than someone with opposite views.

Maybe I have more a feeling of intellectual superiority, but even then not really because I think a lot of people on this forum are probably smarter and certainly more creative/imaginative than me in other pursuits.

It's just that I feel in my guts that I'm right on this issue. It's definitely a 100% subjective thing.
 
Surprisingly, I think last night's debate settled my indecisiveness. JD's claim that he was going to "earn" American's/women's trust back on the issue of abortion was the most creepy dog whistle I've ever seen that I'm voting Harris. Yep. That was creepy as fuck.
 
I'm not disagreeing with you, but what exactly makes it creepy to you?
To me it's clearly a dog whistle. The implication is that American women need to learn to trust JD and others about their choice to have a family. It just comes across as some dude who's like "trust me, I know more than you do" and I couldn't believe he was just saying that on national TV. Super bizarre that his reaction to hearing a woman in an abusive relationship wanting to abort the baby was, " my takeaway from that was we need to do a better job of earning trust". ... What?

At least just be honest like " I don't believe people have the right to abortion, killing babies is wrong". I can respect that. This "earn the trust" angle he thinks is going come across better?? It doesn't. He's framing it as pro family but again he could just leaned hard into killing babies is wrong but he doesn't because that's unpopular but somehow he thinks "Americans just need to understand that we know what's best for them" is going to win them over. Especially since this big brother attitude is what they're running in opposition to- with not like tech company censorship. Well, if we don't want tech companies thinking for us, we definitely don't want you thinking for us, JD.

I don't know why but that whole conversation he had actually triggered a visceral reaction in me when I watched it. I don't get that way when I watch Trump because he's always saying stupid shit. When jd does it, it's clearly calculated and that makes it way more sinister and upsetting because you can see the strings he's trying to pull while doing it vs Trump is super sloppy and inflammatory so it doesn't seem as scary to me.
 
Also I got to be honest JD reminds me of someone that I knew both in physical appearance and his beliefs. I'm sure he might remind a lot of you of someone. Which, now that I think about it, that's probably what caused the visceral reaction of knowing somebody who was exactly like this and knowing how that person acted in public vs closed doors. Which is a bias definitely.
 
Surprisingly, I think last night's debate settled my indecisiveness. JD's claim that he was going to "earn" American's/women's trust back on the issue of abortion was the most creepy dog whistle I've ever seen that I'm voting Harris. Yep. That was creepy as fuck.
From what I have read elsewhere, you are not the only one who experienced it as such, and I thank you for articulating it.

There’s nothing to be earned, only what has been lost.

It’s so condescending. Women can handle agency and autonomy, as that is their birthright.

They aren’t kept. Do they think it’s like abusing an animal? After beating a dog, one must “earn” trust?

Nope, Trump wants to grab it, and Vance wants to control it.

Fuck That,
Ian
 
Just a rhetorical question...would it be prudent to trust the word of a convicted rapist on the subject of reproductive autonomy?

Cheers,
Ian
 
This is pretty much the same as when Kanye West said unscripted on live television "George Bush does not care about black people".

During hurricane Katrina it was also politicized and implied that the federal government was not doing anything to help the residents of New Orleans. The reality was, it was an incredibly devastating hurricane and it took time to untangle the damage.

I don't think we have ever had a political administration, past or present, that has responded to a national emergency by doing nothing. Right or left. I have connections to North Carolina and know people who their entire home was decimated and they're struggling to even get clean water. But I promise you, aid is out there, including federal and state support.
 
I will say Harris does a great job on this. Geopolitical wars are expensive and we do need to allocate considerable funds to that. Interestingly, there is a lot of right wing support for minimizing federal emergency funding. It is overused. There is strong evidence that state funding is better for localized natural disasters. Harris is nicely in moderate territory here.
 
I will say Harris does a great job on this. Geopolitical wars are expensive and we do need to allocate considerable funds to that. Interestingly, there is a lot of right wing support for minimizing federal emergency funding. It is overused. There is strong evidence that state funding is better for localized natural disasters. Harris is nicely in moderate territory here.
Lol whatever, I dont care enough to argue the obvious. Bless you Slant.
 
Lol whatever, I dont care enough to argue the obvious. Bless you Slant.

Yeah. It is really just whatever. Just look at the reaction of the VP debate.

JD Vance: modest background, veteran, best-selling author, graduated from Yale, a normal guy. WEIRDO, CREEP because it reminds people of someone they know who was a bad person (what??). So if he was 30 years older and had grey hair and no beard, it would be ok? I am saying this because "Politico" ran an actual story how his beard is aggressive and threatening to the feminist cause. See below :tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy:

Tim Walz: lies about being in Tienanmen square massacre (what, why??), says he is friends with school shooter (embarrassing even if he misspoke). self-identifies as a knucklehead. NOT A CREEP, COOL GUY. His bulging, deer in the headlights eyes show how much he cares.

I'd say toxic feminists are really losing it, but perhaps this is their natural state (estrogen dominance):

vance.webpwalz.webp
 
Back
Top