What Does It Take For God To Save A Sinner?

sprinkles said:
It is a psychological problem for me.

And it's not that I just hate you. I try to give things due consideration. I really do. But it's not only just you because I find myself defending other stances which I don't even agree with.

I can't willingly get on board with this. But maybe you're right for all I know. And you are right that if this is the truth then I hate the truth. Not all truths are nice or convenient.

I'm not one to hide from truth. I dare truth to come and find me. If what you say is true then I'll have to suck it up even though I hate it because that's how truth is some times. If this is the truth then I will not be repentant on my own but if God is going to override that, then that's how it's going to have to be. It's not like I could fight it if it's the actual truth. It wouldn't be the first time I've faced a truth that I hate and had to be dragged into it tooth and nail. This is something that happens to a lot of people physically, let alone metaphysically.
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Well, it's true that if God intends to save you, then he will save you. And if he doesn't intend to save you, he won't.

But don't be overly fatalistic. You are still responsible.

God COMMANDS you to seek him and believe on his Son. Don't just sit there and wait for it to happen.

As I said to Matt3737, if you want help, I'll be glad to point you in the right direction.
 
SovereignGrace said:
Well, it's true that if God intends to save you, then he will save you. And if he doesn't intend to save you, he won't.

But don't be overly fatalistic. You are still responsible.

God COMMANDS you to seek him and believe on his Son. Don't just sit there and wait for it to happen.

As I said to Matt3737, if you want help, I'll be glad to point you in the right direction.
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Well thanks for the offer. I mean that.

This is a battle that has been going on with me for some 30 years now. The nature of God is a question that often pervades quiet hours. I'm often not sleeping because I'm wrestling this problem. It gets into my dreams periodically.

I'm sorry I've attacked you and maybe somehow set precedent for it as well but for me this is an ongoing war and my actions lately are the collateral damage. You've stepped into this war in myself and I'm sorry that happened. I really am.
 
[MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION]

I think you underestimate the other INFJs here. We are very adept at intuiting what is going on with people.

Perhaps I have skated around the subject, without wanting to be direct - trying to ask you questions to lead you to your own discovery and understanding. However, this approach is perhaps to indirect. So, for the sake of directness:

I and perhaps most of the other people who have responded to your posts have not accepted your claim that you are teaching the truth. You well may be quoting Scripture, but anyone - godly, or positively ungodly can do that. You are pushing a message which, while being a part of the Christian Gospel, is so narrowly focused that it is unrecognisible as having come from Christ. (Again, even devils can quote the words of Christ - and they definitely do not transmit His message).

You are communicating a message of threat and claiming it is a message from God. When God does threaten, it is definitely a message of love and encouragement, balanced with the reality of the consequences of choices some people make. The message you are transmitting comes across as dry, arrogant and devoid of God's love. And God's message in the Scriptures and elsewhere is never dry, arrogant, nor unloving.

I say these things explicitly not to condemn you - or to claim that you are a false prophet - or whatever might be irksome. I think that you have zeal, but you have missed a very important part of what is obviously very dear to you: the humble message of hope, of love, and of encouragement which Our Lord gives to the whole world. I hope that you look at the opposition you have met with here. If you look closely at it, there is a slight element of rejection of Christ. However, the vast negative response is clearly rejection of your claims to be transmitting a Godly message.

I have been reading a little about the lives of preachers and apparently it is a common thing for people, who have an obligation to preach regularly, to become fatigued with certain aspects of the Scriptures. They report becoming idiosyncratic in their interests and sermons. They latch onto one aspect which interests them and neglect the rest. The counsel given in respect of this was a focused renewal of personal - not preaching obliged - immersion in the faith. The equivalent of some pruning, or other such thing.
 
This is called the spiritual triangle. It would be a great disruption in the way things are if those that have awakened do not help those who have not. For a Master to not help someone would be ludicrous.
 
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SovereignGrace said:
If that's so, then why don't you start by admitting to your Lord that you're nothing but sin?

Then maybe you should confess to your Lord that you did not have the wisdom to choose him, but you know that he chose you first.

Then, you might want to actually start reading his Word, and submit to a pastor who preaches the Gospel.

You might think it sounds "spiritual" to say "I submit to my Lord." but if you won't submit to anyone else, then you are not submitted to the Lord.
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Because people aren’t “nothing but sin”…people aren’t just full of evil and dripping with disgust.
People can be beautiful, compassionate, and altruistic!
One doesn’t even have to be a “Christian” to be those things.
This is actually a problem that I see with many so-called “Christian” churches in this day and age.
They don’t follow the teachings of Jesus…they follow the teachings that help them and their church and no one else.
Jesus walked with, and accepted EVERYONE…the scum of the earth…prostitutes, thieves, lepers.
So why do we have politicians using the Bible to justify yanking money from the poor (because it doesn’t teach them to fish)…they are nothing but weekend warriors for Christ. So holy and smug on Sunday and total assholes the rest of the week.
It isn’t all Christians…just certain groups it seems that cannot accept the fact that not everyone holds the same beliefs and opinions as they do.
When you look at the world….when you talk to other people…it must be so incredibly sad to you…to see people in the light that you have portrayed them on here…you must look at people as human garbage…perhaps this is the kind of thinking that allows certain groups to take money from the poor…to not help their fellow man…because after all - they are all sinners who are damned to Hell…so why bother?
All you are obligated to do is preach?
If I hear “hate the sin, love the sinner” one more time, I may vomit on myself. If you cannot accept someone for things that are fundamentally part of who they are, then you do not love them…you can disagree with their decisions, but “hating” the sin is a cop-out.
The majority of people in this world I believe are just trying to do the best they can with what they have been given….they aren’t out to be evil…because I don’t believe that people are innately evil. We ARE selfish creatures…all of us…first and foremost we serve ourselves by eating and having shelter, but that doesn’t make us evil…if we didn’t have those things we couldn’t be in a position to help anyone else.
If mankind is so evil, then why is God even bothering with us at all SG?
By the example of the God you submit to, why should anyone care about his/her fellow human at all?
You Sir. can keep believing that people are evil sinners….but for me, I will always believe that people are good inside…misguided, but certainly not evil.
I will never look down upon someone who is “less” than me, because the moment you take such a viewpoint you have lowered yourself far below the one you are judging.
You preach hatred and Hellfire…not the love that Jesus showed the people. He taught through parable and through example…I myself have always struggled with my personal faith, but I have always tried to follow the examples that Christ showed even if I don’t consider myself “Christian”.
Please look at what you are writing…you claim to not be disrespectful….but if your own words were aimed at you, how would you feel?
You eagerly dismiss every belief and opinion by calling them “false prophets” and condemning them to “Hell”.
Who are you to judge them? You are nobody to judge them. You have no right. Zero.
If you adhere to your own preaching then you are just as sinful as the rest….how do you know God isn’t using you as a “false prophet” and another means to an end?
Humility is what should have been shown to people if you truly believe in what the Bible teaches….that is why people have shown you a less than comfortable welcome.
You have the right to say whatever you wish…but what people do not stand for is being judged by someone who no one here even knows and who seems to take no other aspects of who anyone is into consideration.
You, are not 100% right…no one is.
Quit acting like you are.
 
I clearly remember one of my great professors telling me that if you only live according your religion to be "saved" from torment, you're not a believer. You've bought an insurance against Hellfire. If you follow a religion because you truly believe in it, and live your life affording to it, then you are truly a religious and enlightened person.

I highly recommend the writings of Søren Kierkegaard to those of you who are feeling philosophical. He is regarded as the father of existentialism. He was a deeply religious Christian who was a prominent opponent to Nietzsche and many other secularists, however he was also highly critical of those who were 'lazy in their faiths' and only did exactly what was necessary to avoid what they imagined to be Hellfire. He said that if your religion is based on death, then your religion should die with those thoughts. Only religions that focus on life are worth spending your time on. That's why he loved Christianity and the whole of Christendom.

May you all have a wonderful evening.
 
SovereignGrace said:
Well, here's another one: You are a hypocrite--meaning that you have no concern for the Gospel unless it suits your agenda.

If you care about the Gospel so much, why don't you learn it, believe it, and preach it yourself, instead of pretending you care about it just to pick me apart?

And here's another "threat" as you call it: Read Matthew 25. The LORD says that however you treat one of his people, he considers it done to him.

I suggest you consider the wisdom of continuing to harass me in such an unwarranted fashion.
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Its OBVIOUS you havent read the passage. READ that passage again!
 
sprinkles said:
Well thanks for the offer. I mean that.

This is a battle that has been going on with me for some 30 years now. The nature of God is a question that often pervades quiet hours. I'm often not sleeping because I'm wrestling this problem. It gets into my dreams periodically.

I'm sorry I've attacked you and maybe somehow set precedent for it as well but for me this is an ongoing war and my actions lately are the collateral damage. You've stepped into this war in myself and I'm sorry that happened. I really am.
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Good. That's excellent.

A struggle in the conscience is a very good sign.

Again, if you ever need help, just ask. I want to help in any way I can.
 
Flavus Aquila said:
[MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION]

I think you underestimate the other INFJs here. We are very adept at intuiting what is going on with people.

Perhaps I have skated around the subject, without wanting to be direct - trying to ask you questions to lead you to your own discovery and understanding. However, this approach is perhaps to indirect. So, for the sake of directness:

I and perhaps most of the other people who have responded to your posts have not accepted your claim that you are teaching the truth. You well may be quoting Scripture, but anyone - godly, or positively ungodly can do that. You are pushing a message which, while being a part of the Christian Gospel, is so narrowly focused that it is unrecognisible as having come from Christ. (Again, even devils can quote the words of Christ - and they definitely do not transmit His message).

You are communicating a message of threat and claiming it is a message from God. When God does threaten, it is definitely a message of love and encouragement, balanced with the reality of the consequences of choices some people make. The message you are transmitting comes across as dry, arrogant and devoid of God's love. And God's message in the Scriptures and elsewhere is never dry, arrogant, nor unloving.

I say these things explicitly not to condemn you - or to claim that you are a false prophet - or whatever might be irksome. I think that you have zeal, but you have missed a very important part of what is obviously very dear to you: the humble message of hope, of love, and of encouragement which Our Lord gives to the whole world. I hope that you look at the opposition you have met with here. If you look closely at it, there is a slight element of rejection of Christ. However, the vast negative response is clearly rejection of your claims to be transmitting a Godly message.

I have been reading a little about the lives of preachers and apparently it is a common thing for people, who have an obligation to preach regularly, to become fatigued with certain aspects of the Scriptures. They report becoming idiosyncratic in their interests and sermons. They latch onto one aspect which interests them and neglect the rest. The counsel given in respect of this was a focused renewal of personal - not preaching obliged - immersion in the faith. The equivalent of some pruning, or other such thing.
Click to expand...

No, that's not it.

You're missing the forest for the trees.

What this is is an internet forum. And I have been responding to the arguments people are making against what I'm saying.

And guess what--Nobody has a problem with Jesus SAVING people, they only ARGUE against Hell and damnation, election and predestination.

So, if it SEEMS like I'm only focusing on those things, it's because that's what OTHERS are continually bringing up.

In other words, you are not hearing a sermon from me, which would be more balanced, you're reading my responses to other people and the particular issues THEY keep focusing on.
 
Skarekrow said:
Because people aren’t “nothing but sin”…people aren’t just full of evil and dripping with disgust.
People can be beautiful, compassionate, and altruistic!
One doesn’t even have to be a “Christian” to be those things.
This is actually a problem that I see with many so-called “Christian” churches in this day and age.
They don’t follow the teachings of Jesus…they follow the teachings that help them and their church and no one else.
Jesus walked with, and accepted EVERYONE…the scum of the earth…prostitutes, thieves, lepers.
So why do we have politicians using the Bible to justify yanking money from the poor (because it doesn’t teach them to fish)…they are nothing but weekend warriors for Christ. So holy and smug on Sunday and total assholes the rest of the week.
It isn’t all Christians…just certain groups it seems that cannot accept the fact that not everyone holds the same beliefs and opinions as they do.
When you look at the world….when you talk to other people…it must be so incredibly sad to you…to see people in the light that you have portrayed them on here…you must look at people as human garbage…perhaps this is the kind of thinking that allows certain groups to take money from the poor…to not help their fellow man…because after all - they are all sinners who are damned to Hell…so why bother?
All you are obligated to do is preach?
If I hear “hate the sin, love the sinner” one more time, I may vomit on myself. If you cannot accept someone for things that are fundamentally part of who they are, then you do not love them…you can disagree with their decisions, but “hating” the sin is a cop-out.
The majority of people in this world I believe are just trying to do the best they can with what they have been given….they aren’t out to be evil…because I don’t believe that people are innately evil. We ARE selfish creatures…all of us…first and foremost we serve ourselves by eating and having shelter, but that doesn’t make us evil…if we didn’t have those things we couldn’t be in a position to help anyone else.
If mankind is so evil, then why is God even bothering with us at all SG?
By the example of the God you submit to, why should anyone care about his/her fellow human at all?
You Sir. can keep believing that people are evil sinners….but for me, I will always believe that people are good inside…misguided, but certainly not evil.
I will never look down upon someone who is “less” than me, because the moment you take such a viewpoint you have lowered yourself far below the one you are judging.
You preach hatred and Hellfire…not the love that Jesus showed the people. He taught through parable and through example…I myself have always struggled with my personal faith, but I have always tried to follow the examples that Christ showed even if I don’t consider myself “Christian”.
Please look at what you are writing…you claim to not be disrespectful….but if your own words were aimed at you, how would you feel?
You eagerly dismiss every belief and opinion by calling them “false prophets” and condemning them to “Hell”.
Who are you to judge them? You are nobody to judge them. You have no right. Zero.
If you adhere to your own preaching then you are just as sinful as the rest….how do you know God isn’t using you as a “false prophet” and another means to an end?
Humility is what should have been shown to people if you truly believe in what the Bible teaches….that is why people have shown you a less than comfortable welcome.
You have the right to say whatever you wish…but what people do not stand for is being judged by someone who no one here even knows and who seems to take no other aspects of who anyone is into consideration.
You, are not 100% right…no one is.
Quit acting like you are.
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When you ask from a position of humility and genuine interest, I will answer your questions.

But at this point in time, you are demonstrating the fact that you don't really want to know.
 
SovereignGrace said:
No, that's not it.

You're missing the forest for the trees.

What this is is an internet forum. And I have been responding to the arguments people are making against what I'm saying.

And guess what--Nobody has a problem with Jesus SAVING people, they only ARGUE against Hell and damnation, election and predestination.

So, if it SEEMS like I'm only focusing on those things, it's because that's what OTHERS are continually bringing up.

In other words, you are not hearing a sermon from me, which would be more balanced, you're reading my responses to other people and the particular issues THEY keep focusing on.
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God predestined it. Quit your whining.
 
Matt3737 said:
They're not mutually exclusive. Quit lying also.
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Question: What are you trying to accomplish?

I am attempting to warn people of the consequence of unbelief. You can say I'm doing it wrong, I'm misguided, etc. But I clearly am trying to accomplish something.

What is it that you are trying to accomplish, if not just being a troll?
 
[MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION]

I'm trying to keep you from continually harassing other members of the forum. How do you plan to accomplish something when it has already been predestined?
 
Matt3737 said:
[MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION]

I'm trying to keep you from continually harassing other members of the forum. How do you plan to accomplish something when it has already been predestined?
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OK. I see.

Well, as misguided and wrong as you are, at least you do have a noble intention.

And it still amazes me how predestination is so difficult for you.

Listen:

Everything that happens was predestinated. And because it was predestinated, it actually happens.

See how simple that is?

I don't understand how you see a contradiction.
 
Matt3737 said:
@SovereignGrace

I'm trying to keep you from continually harassing other members of the forum. How do you plan to accomplish something when it has already been predestined?
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I'm not sure discussing religion in the religion threads is 'harrassment'
 
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