What Does It Take For God To Save A Sinner?

[Matt3737]

Man, you're just creating problems that don't even exist.

As I said before, you can take it up with God when you die.

I thought you had all the answers though. Teach me more about Christ.

 

[sprinkles]

Why do you assume I'm making no sense?

What about the possibility that you're not understanding?

I've said it numerous times, in this thread, as well as others: The MEANS that GOD USES to bring sinners to FAITH is the PREACHING of the GOSPEL to SINNERS!

That is the MEANS under which sinners COME to a knowledge of the truth.

So if people don't PREACH it, NOBODY will be SAVED.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Why does it seem CONTRADICTORY to you?

No, that part is crystal clear to me. At least in that you've been consistent with it. But that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about things like this:

If you care about the Gospel so much, why don't you learn it, believe it, and preach it yourself, instead of pretending you care about it just to pick me apart?

According to what you've illustrated, the why of that should be entirely clear to you. But maybe that's a rhetorical question and you're illustrating that man can't do it on his own? Well nope:

That's really a sin issue, but if you won't deal with it as a sin issue, then you ought to at least get psychological help.

What's that there? Looks to me like you're saying it is up to us. But wait there's more:

If you think that's contradictory, then take it up with God. You will most certainly have the opportunity when you die.

Well I'll do that and already have done. But according to you that shouldn't even be possible. However there's still more from you:

If you want to remain in ignorance, that's your prerogative. Just be warned that the consequences are eternal damnation.

Is it really? What happened there? I thought there was no prerogative! But wait!!

Furthermore, the nature of mankind is totally bent on evil. Man will not and can not choose the good. He is totally enslaved to evil.

When are you going to realize that?

This very statement contradicts itself right away! "When are you going to realize that?" As per your illustration, the answer to that is "NEVER, until God wills it so!"

Do you see? Probably not.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You may mean very well. But not a single person as far as I could tell saw that in your communications, not even the other Christians at the forum. I am fairly certain that everyone read nothing but hatred and condemnation from a self righteous person who took glee only in speaking about damnation and nothing about the love of Christ.

Yes, I agree. That seems to be the universal reaction.

But it has no basis in FACT. It's amateur psychology and psychoanalysis. And it simply isn't accurate at all.

It's amazing how the statement that "ALL HUMAN BEINGS other than CHRIST are NOTHING but SIN" can be taken as a PERSONAL INSULT!

And how is the statement that "those who do not have faith in Christ are going to hell", a personal attack?

That's a flat-out doctrinal statement.

That doesn't prove that I'm wrong for making such statements--it proves how LOST and CONFUSED people are.

 

[Matt3737]

Yes, I agree. That seems to be the universal reaction.

But it has no basis in FACT. It's amateur psychology and psychoanalysis. And it simply isn't accurate at all.

It's amazing how the statement that ALL HUMAN BEINGS other than CHRIST are NOTHING but SIN can be taken as a PERSONAL INSULT!

That doesn't prove that I'm wrong for making such statements--it proves how LOST and CONFUSED people are.

You are right. You, most of all, are very lost and confused. I feel very sorry for you, but I do hope that maybe you will reflect on your Biblical studies until such time that you have a better understanding.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No, that part is crystal clear to me. At least in that you've been consistent with it. But that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about things like this:



According to what you've illustrated, the why of that should be entirely clear to you. But maybe that's a rhetorical question and you're illustrating that man can't do it on his own? Well nope:



What's that there? Looks to me like you're saying it is up to us. But wait there's more:


Well I'll do that and already have done. But according to you that shouldn't even be possible. However there's still more from you:


Is it really? What happened there? I thought there was no prerogative! But wait!!


This very statement contradicts itself right away! "When are you going to realize that?" As per your illustration, the answer to that is "NEVER, until God wills it so!"

Do you see? Probably not.

I see your point, but here's the source of the misunderstanding:

Man's inability to believe/understand/receive the Gospel is not an INTELLECTUAL problem but a MORAL one.

Man can UNDERSTAND the WORDS that are written in the Bible. In fact, even a CHILD can understand them.

But because man is EVIL and UNGODLY by nature, he CANNOT and WILL NOT RECEIVE them.

He will SUPRESS and DENY what it says, or else do all he can to avoid HEARING it--UNLESS GOD BREAKS his WILL.

Then and ONLY then will a sinner RECEIVE the things of God.

Does that help? Or is it still confusing?

 

[SovereignGrace]

I thought you had all the answers though. Teach me more about Christ.

The day you come to me and say, "SovereignGrace, I'm concerned about the state of my soul. I'm afraid I am lost, and I need to be saved. How can God save a sinner like me?"

The day you say that and mean it from the heart, I'll tell you all you want to know.

But at this point in time, you are nothing but a troll, and I have no desire to continue with you.

 

[Matt3737]

[MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION]

Why is stating your faith as an opinion insulting? Isn't that the purpose of having faith? Does one speak about having faith in gravity or mathematics? Why does your faith weaken by stating it as your opinion? Are ye of little faith?

 

[Matt3737]

The day you come to me and say, "SovereignGrace, I'm concerned about the state of my soul. I'm afraid I am lost, and I need to be saved. How can God save a sinner like me?"

The day you say that and mean it from the heart, I'll tell you all you want to know.

But at this point in time, you are nothing but a troll, and I have no desire to continue with you.

I submit to my Lord; not a sinner like you.

 

[SovereignGrace]

[MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION]

Why is stating your faith as an opinion insulting? Isn't that the purpose of having faith? Does one speak about having faith in gravity or mathematics? Why does you faith weaken by stating it as your opinion?

I already answered that. Stop trolling.

 

[sprinkles]

I see your point, but here's the source of the misunderstanding:

Man's inability to believe/understand/receive the Gospel is not an INTELLECTUAL problem but a MORAL one.

Man can UNDERSTAND the WORDS that are written in the Bible. In fact, even a CHILD can understand them.

But because man is EVIL and UNGODLY by nature, he CANNOT and WILL NOT RECEIVE them.

He will SUPRESS and DENY what it says, or else do all he can to avoid HEARING it--UNLESS GOD BREAKS his WILL.

Then and ONLY then will a sinner RECEIVE the things of God.

Does that help? Or is it still confusing?

I know this concept. It's not that I've never heard it.

I'm not feeling it from you. That makes it difficult for me. You've said before to focus on the truth and not you, but I can't seem to extricate myself from that.

 

[Matt3737]

I already answered that. Stop trolling.

It's an honest question. Why don't you reflect on it. When I have an opinion, I have no problem stating it as such even if I feel very strongly about it. I don't think opinions are somehow invalid simply for being opinions.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I submit to my Lord; not a sinner like you.

If that's so, then why don't you start by admitting to your Lord that you're nothing but sin?

Then maybe you should confess to your Lord that you did not have the wisdom to choose him, but you know that he chose you first.

Then, you might want to actually start reading his Word, and submit to a pastor who preaches the Gospel.

You might think it sounds "spiritual" to say "I submit to my Lord." but if you won't submit to anyone else, then you are not submitted to the Lord.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I know this concept. It's not that I've never heard it.

I'm not feeling it from you. That makes it difficult for me. You've said before to focus on the truth and not you, but I can't seem to extricate myself from that.

Well, that sounds like a psychological problem.

You will have to find some way to stop focusing on me, and just focus on the truth itself.

 

[Matt3737]

If that's so, then why don't you start by admitting to your Lord that you're nothing but sin?

Then maybe you should confess to your Lord that you did not have the wisdom to choose him, but you know that he chose you first.

Then, you might want to actually start reading his Word, and submit to a pastor who preaches the Gospel.

You might think it sounds "spiritual" to say "I submit to my Lord." but if you won't submit to anyone else, then you are not submitted to the Lord.

I'll work on that. Maybe you should work on your faith and your ability to preach the gospel in an appropriate manner.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'll work on that.

Well, I can help you with that, if you're willing to accept it.

I would be glad to help you find a good church.

Also, the link in the O.P. is a sermon by Don Fortner, one of the best preachers alive today.

Please just stop fighting, and accept some help.

You need it. And I can help you.

Can you imagine if we ended up as brothers in Christ?

Even after all this, it still could happen.

 

[Matt3737]

Well, I can help you with that, if you're willing to accept it.

I would be glad to help you find a good church.

I'll stick to those who are better preachers than you and who don't appear to be blaspheming for their own ends. You've done enough damage already.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'll stick to those who are better preachers than you and who don't appear to be blaspheming for their own ends. You've done enough damage already.

Come on man. Seriously, you're lost. And I'm trying to help you.

Don't be so stubborn. At least listen to the link in the OP.

 

[Matt3737]

Come on man. Seriously, you're lost. And I'm trying to help you.

Don't be so stubborn. At least listen to the link in the OP.

It's the lost leading the lost huh? Good luck with that.

 

[SovereignGrace]

It's the lost leading the lost huh? Good luck with that.

Come on.

Just accept help when it comes your way.

Don't "look a gift-horse in the mouth."

 

[sprinkles]

Well, that sounds like a psychological problem.

You will have to find some way to stop focusing on me, and just focus on the truth itself.

It is a psychological problem for me.

And it's not that I just hate you. I try to give things due consideration. I really do. But it's not only just you because I find myself defending other stances which I don't even agree with.

I can't willingly get on board with this. But maybe you're right for all I know. And you are right that if this is the truth then I hate the truth. Not all truths are nice or convenient.

I'm not one to hide from truth. I dare truth to come and find me. If what you say is true then I'll have to suck it up even though I hate it because that's how truth is some times. If this is the truth then I will not be repentant on my own but if God is going to override that, then that's how it's going to have to be. It's not like I could fight it if it's the actual truth. It wouldn't be the first time I've faced a truth that I hate and had to be dragged into it tooth and nail. This is something that happens to a lot of people physically, let alone metaphysically.